Railway staff lying to the BTP

[soil]

do you actually believe that?

Essentially what you are saying is that there is a conspiracy on the part of one or more railway company/ies and their servants to persecute one individual to such an extent?

Sorry but that doesn't add up to me.

Well I've met rj, you evidently haven't, and that is my assessment.

No conspiracy, just common or garden prejudice.

 

[DarloRich]

Mojo/Yorkie.

Fine - you are clearly not prepared to consider an alternative stand point. i have expressed a view that whilst being completely right, the OP should , perhaps, consider his own approach to these situations.

It does not seem to be acceptable to do so or to settle for anything less than the position of the consumers super hero avenging such evil wrongs. In that case I can add nothing more to this thread.

 

[RJ]

To me it is the wrong approach. It could easily be seen as confrontational or childish. I would just pay up, under protest, obtain the required receipts and documentation and claim it back. It might take a few weeks but so what.

It could be suggested by a less charitable observer than myself that the need to be seen to win , in public, is all consuming. Is a letter from the TOC head office not enough? Or does there have to be public humiliation of the staff member in order to win?

However, it has quickly become apparent that any questioning of the OP or his position is unacceptable, therefore i will limit any further contribution.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Just walk away from it. Why put yourself through all the hassle, stress and unpleasantness. Take the path of least resistance and live to fight another day.

If you are in the right , and i dont doubt you are, you will win any appeal easily. Yes, you have to write to them and hassle them but it must be better than all of this.

You're free to question me - but there are people who have followed the stories of what have gone on from the very beginning who have a fuller appreciation of the avenues I have gone down in the past.

Appealing payments for additional tickets is an arduous task. I tried that with EMT and all I found was that IRCAS repeatedly rejected my appeals and the staff at EMT's head office weren't prepared to listen to me. This then required external intervention before they realised that it was not in their best interests to uphold the existing sanctions against me. I later found out the kind of things the appeals assessors were saying - one of them said that the tickets I claimed to use were so random, I must have found them somewhere and decided to use them instead of paying for a ticket.

I don't envisage it will be any easier with Southeastern. At the moment, I'm only at the stage where they've just about admitted that the NRCoC does apply to HS1 services. It is an improvement on the front line staff I have encountered so far, who truly believe that it is a premium service which has its own set of rules.

Appealing only works if the appeals staff are aware of the rules and regulations and can apply analytical skills to all cases they are presented with. At present, the expectation that these skills exist far surpasses the reality and as such, it is a waste of time. I had a letter from Southeastern through my door today telling me about how they were sorry to hear that I was unhappy about the way I was treated after being found on a train without a valid ticket. So it's going to be an uphill struggle to get the problem rectified.

 

[yorkie]

Mojo/Yorkie.

Fine - you are clearly not prepared to consider an alternative stand point. i have expressed a view that whilst being completely right, the OP should , perhaps, consider his own approach to these situations.

I can assure you that the alternative stand points have been considered, but I can only refer you to our posts above. If you maintain it is "easy", even in light of what Mojo and myself said (in particular, given that this thread is mostly dealing with RJs encounters with SET, Mojo's experiences with SET are particularly relevant) then I have to wonder if you are just refusing to believe us? It's your right to have your view, but I can't agree with it, because the experiences of numerous other people tells me there are serious problems at TOCs such as SET and EMT and it's not just RJ who is a victim.

 

[DarloRich]

Well I've met rj, you evidently haven't, and that is my assessment.

No conspiracy, just common or garden prejudice.

I haven't met him and i haven't ever said he is in the wrong, just that his approach may be, perhaps, slightly flawed

However you are still suggesting that one or more train companies are out to get him. That is frankly ludicrous! I cant believe that is the case.

 

[BestWestern]

It is true that there is an enormous chip on the shoulders of one or two Guards/OBMs at SET & EMT, as evidenced by the fact it's not just RJ who experiences problems.

Who are you accusing of that, as that is a serious allegation?

It's not that serious, there are plenty of people who really do go out there to wind staff up on a daily basis, sadly. My point, which perhaps ought to have been worded rather better, was simply that RJ appears at face value to have a n awful lot of aggro when dealing with revenue staff. My curiosity was whether the tickets being presented were some form of 'test' to see if staff would take the bait, however the chap has since made it clear he is travelling as part of his daily life and as such his tickets are presented merely for the purpose of travelling, nothing more. In which case, assuming he simply has a far better knowledge than most of the staff he encounters - perfectly possible, the railway does not excel in it's retail training - I'm rather shocked at some of his experiences, and I'd hope that he makes his experiences known the TOCs concerned!

 

[soil]

I haven't met him and i haven't ever said he is in the wrong, just that his approach may be, perhaps, slightly flawed

However you are still suggesting that one or more train companies are out to get him. That is frankly ludicrous! I cant believe that is the case.

Eh? I just said there was no conspiracy, however the fact of the matter is that rj is not a middle aged stockbroker in a suit, and for that reason, for the foreseeable future, he is going to face the issue that people assume that he is in the wrong, not because of what he has done, but because of people's preconceptions about him.

I've had myself when my wife has tried to take some back to a shop, they've decided she's dodgy, said no, so I go and do the job myself, and it's all 'certainly sir'. This is no conspiracy, it's just people's prejudice and preconception.

It doesn't however mean that my wife was in the wrong, it's just that unfortunately life isn't fair, and some people get an easier ride than others. Maybe something for you to consider.

 

[DarloRich]

I can assure you that the alternative stand points have been considered, but I can only refer you to our posts above. If you maintain it is "easy", even in light of what Mojo and myself said (in particular, given that this thread is mostly dealing with RJs encounters with SET, Mojo's experiences with SET are particularly relevant) then I have to wonder if you are just refusing to believe us? It's your right to have your view, but I can't agree with it, because the experiences of numerous other people tells me there are serious problems at TOCs such as SET and EMT and it's not just RJ who is a victim.

So, just so i am clear, your suggestion is to deal with things by ,essentially, creating a scene and having the police called. Are you prepared to accept that this might not be the best form of attack?

I have never suggested i dont believe there are issues with lots of train companies or that the OP is in the wrong, simply that there are other ways to resolve things rather than a direct confrontation. What happens when one day the policeman decides to take you in and put you on a charge. Is it worth the hassle that will bring?

I am well aware how it is hard to recover your money from a TOC, they purposely make it hard so you give up! If you are right and you continue with your correspondence they have no choice to pay up. Of course they should do it sooner but they wont.

I am simply suggesting that you and others are not prepared, for whatever reason, to consider any alternative approaches. You seem to WANT there to be a confrontation. I would want to avoid it.

 

[soil]

I am simply suggesting that you and others are not prepared, for whatever reason, to consider any alternative approaches. You seem to WANT there to be a confrontation. I would want to avoid it.

Ok, so what is your alternative approach?

 

[RJ]

I accept your assurance then that your endeavours are honest, and I shall retract my 'chip on shoulder' suggestion - I will edit the post in a mo. But, as Darlo has also observed, you can surely appreciate that your apparent regular misfortune could lead people to wonder how a chap encounters such frequent aggression from staff who, if they behaved in such manner all the time, would be out of a job?

Thank you.

When I read other's stories, I find it's very easy to fall into the mindset that they must have done something wrong. Very easy indeed. But then I stop and think about my own experiences in order to be able to empathise with others who have found themselves in unfortunate situations.

I've been up and down the country. I've worked with tickets and in revenue protection and I still keep an active interest in those fields. I know what it's like from both sides - internally, ticketing is seen as something that is comically complicated, to the point where it is considered the norm to not want to bother yourself with trying to learn anything beyond the most basic elements concerning the tickets most commonly sold. I've worked alongside some inspectors who are the salt of the earth and others who are pernicious bullies who get a kick out of asserting their authority over the passengers.

On the other side as a passenger, I empathise with what the staff have to deal with and have tried to find various ways of dealing with the undesirable types. With EMT, use of uncommon payment methods did the trick with the nastiest of the lot. Southeastern however are rather more ruthless and brutal in their application of revenue protection, which is something that I was both shocked by and unprepared to deal with. The best I could do was keep my cool and let the cameras catch the staff doing their thing, with me making no attempt to do anything other than retreat and report the matter as appropriate. No company I have worked for has ever encouraged that kind of action towards customers - I have worked for numerous firms in the transport industry and it's a first on me.

I have no idea why I find it hard to get a break. A few years back in my late teen years, I found I was being stopped and searched by police when I was walking down the street minding my own business, for no apparent reason. To this day I still have no idea why. They never found anything and my record is as clean as a whistle. It's just one of those things I've learned to deal with and I'm thankful that I have an uncanny ability to keep my cool and be unrelentingly respectful towards those who are confrontational towards me, be it the police, ticket inspectors or any other figures of authority.

 

[yorkie]

So, just so i am clear, your suggestion is to deal with things by ,essentially, creating a scene and having the police called. Are you prepared to accept that this might not be the best form of attack?

Certainly not. It is not in any way for the passenger to suggest that the police are called. If you are on a valid ticket, it is not right that you are asked to hand over any money. There are procedures that staff should follow. If the staff do not follow the correct procedures, and instead call the BTP, that is not the fault of the customer. Again I note my questions regarding how much extra money to bring are unanswered so it is questionable how your suggestions are practicable. For example are you suggesting the customer has to ensure they have adequate funds to cover the full Anytime fare? On some journeys that is a lot of money.

I have never suggested i dont believe there are issues with lots of train companies or that the OP is in the wrong, simply that there are other ways to resolve things rather than a direct confrontation. What happens when one day the policeman decides to take you in and put you on a charge. Is it worth the hassle that will bring?

I think that would ultimately be more hassle for the policeman if they attempted to charge someone on the basis of a valid ticket being invalid.

I am well aware how it is hard to recover your money from a TOC, they purposely make it hard so you give up! If you are right and you continue with your correspondence they have no choice to pay up. Of course they should do it sooner but they wont.

Sorry but allocating many hours of time to get refunds is not something we should be prepared to do. We will have to agree to disagree.

I am simply suggesting that you and others are not prepared, for whatever reason, to consider any alternative approaches. You seem to WANT there to be a confrontation. I would want to avoid it.

I do not think we WANT confrontations but we do want any unwanted confrontations to be robustly dealt with so that there should be no recurrences.

Sadly TOCs such as SET and EMT do not handle such cases in a way that confrontations are avoided in future. It would be a not unreasonable conclusion that it is, therefore, that if anyone "wants" there to be a confrontation, it is SET and EMT who "want" it!

Of course the passenger does not want it, and RJ said earlier his aim is that one day there will be none of these confrontations in future by eliminating the 'passenger is always wrong' approach. However that is very ambitious and requires significant assistance from the DfT/ORR, which is unlikely to be forthcoming in my view.

 

[RJ]

So, just so i am clear, your suggestion is to deal with things by ,essentially, creating a scene and having the police called. Are you prepared to accept that this might not be the best form of attack?

Something I've had to contend with is staff trying to put me off trains in back of the beyond type places like Staplehurst. In that situation, I can confirm that yes, I would sooner stand my ground than get off the train.

 

[455driver]

A few years back in my late teen years, I found I was being stopped and searched by police when I was walking down the street minding my own business, for no apparent reason..

I keep getting a Police escort home when I am on lates (occasionally they stop me just to make sure I am okay ), they can follow me for miles which makes me feel all nice and safe and its nice to think that the police have got the resources available to give me some security on the way home at one or two oclock in the morning.
Or maybe its because my work car is 20 years old!

 

[BestWestern]

Thank you.

When I read other's stories, I find it's very easy to fall into the mindset that they must have done something wrong. Very easy indeed. But then I stop and think about my own experiences in order to be able to empathise with others who have found themselves in unfortunate situations.

I've been up and down the country. I've worked with tickets and in revenue protection and I still keep an active interest in those fields. I know what it's like from both sides - internally, ticketing is seen as something that is comically complicated, to the point where it is considered the norm to not want to bother yourself with trying to learn anything beyond the most basic elements concerning the tickets most commonly sold. I've worked alongside some inspectors who are the salt of the earth and others who are pernicious bullies who get a kick out of asserting their authority over the passengers.

On the other side as a passenger, I empathise with what the staff have to deal with and have tried to find various ways of dealing with the undesirable types. With EMT, use of uncommon payment methods did the trick with the nastiest of the lot. Southeastern however are rather more ruthless and brutal in their application of revenue protection, which is something that I was both shocked by and unprepared to deal with. The best I could do was keep my cool and let the cameras catch the staff doing their thing, with me making no attempt to do anything other than retreat and report the matter as appropriate. No company I have worked for has ever encouraged that kind of action towards customers - I have worked for numerous firms in the transport industry and it's a first on me.

I have no idea why I find it hard to get a break. A few years back in my late teen years, I found I was being stopped and searched by police when I was walking down the street minding my own business, for no apparent reason. To this day I still have no idea why. They never found anything and my record is as clean as a whistle. It's just one of those things I've learned to deal with and I'm thankful that I have an uncanny ability to keep my cool and be unrelentingly respectful towards those who are confrontational towards me, be it the police, ticket inspectors or any other figures of authority.

You make some very good points, particularly regarding the internal, staff view. There is a lack of understanding from revenue focussed staff of the ticketing system, largely because sufficient training is not given. There is a further lack of understanding of the legal powers of those staff and of the BTP, and of the procedures required if those powers are to be exercised correctly, again due to a lack of training. And finally there are those people who simply shouldn't be working with the public. The industry needs to train staff to a far higher standard where revenue issues are concerned, and crucially that level of training then needs to be maintained on a constant basis.

 

[RJ]

I keep getting a Police escort home when I am on lates (occasionally they stop me just to make sure I am okay ), they can follow me for miles which makes me feel all nice and safe and its nice to think that the police have got the resources available to give me some security on the way home at one or two oclock in the morning.
Or maybe its because my work car is 20 years old!

How nice of them . Once I was on a bus minding my own business and the police saw me, turned around and followed the bus into Heathrow Central bus station. They came up to me at the bus stop and wanted to know what I was doing there at 11pm. Not content with me telling them I was travelling from Hayes to Croydon and that being the most convenient interchange, they decided to run every check possible on me. After a few hours, they were kind enough to escort me off the airport premises and leave me to find my own way home. I was being stopped by forces I never even knew existed, like the marine police! At one point I was collecting slips from all the different constabularies who had stopped and searched me and stuck them in my photography sketchbook!

 

[DarloRich]

RJ - i am afraid my cynical nature has got the better of me this evening and i apologise for that.

Also my tired brain has just realised what soil was trying to tell me!

 

[the sniper]

I take RJ on face value, but I do find it amazing how much trouble he gets. In my time with BTP I never saw a TI called in where someone actually held a valid ticket, with only its validity being argued, so it can't be too common. When you read about the latest incidents and how they've gone down it's no surprise that people question what RJ is doing so wrong, the answer to which seems, nothing... Which leads me to ask something that I've wondered for a while.

RJ, feel free not to answer, but particularly with what you've said in your last couple of post, I'm interested to know, are you white? Is it a case that your face literally doesn't fit your ticket in the eyes of some people?

 

[RJ]

You make some very good points, particularly regarding the internal, staff view. There is a lack of understanding from revenue focussed staff of the ticketing system, largely because sufficient training is not given. There is a further lack of understanding of the legal powers of those staff and of the BTP, and of the procedures required if those powers are to be exercised correctly, again due to a lack of training. And finally there are those people who simply shouldn't be working with the public. The industry needs to train staff to a far higher standard where revenue issues are concerned, and crucially that level of training then needs to be maintained on a constant basis.

I agree in full - I've sat in on training sessions and have had to bite my lip, silently dejected that groups of new starters are being taught wrong things to go and inflict on the public. There are trainers out there with years of experience, but don't keep up to date with all of the latest developments or look into the system with discerning degrees of meticulousness.

When I first started on the railways as a keen teenager in a ticket office, I was very lucky to have an easy going and experienced trainer who made the point at the beginning that knowing where and when to look to find out anything you don't know is just as important as having the knowledge itself.

Following feedback from a number of EMT's TMs, RPIs, booking office staff and one or two HQ staff who have shown great admiration for the work I put into my ticketing arrangements, I recently offered to help EMT out with their training material and to run courses completely free of charge, as ticketing is a bit of a vocation for me. I don't live far from their HQ and have a bit of spare time on my hands when in that neck of the woods. They said they weren't interested, which is fair enough.

It's a pity really, as I recognise there are actually quite a lot of staff out there who despite loving the job, resent the fact that they're working with a system they haven't been properly trained on. I recently spoke to a ticket office clerk who had to pick it up as he went along and was bemonaning the fact that he never had the chance to go on a retail knowledge course. It can't be a nice feeling to be in a situation where there are customers who know more than you - I hated that feeling, but took control by way of building upon my knowledge in my spare time. That said, it's how it handled that matters. Many staff will be fair when it comes to disputes of a complicated nature - but a minority have serious ego issues and despite knowing a little, will not stand for it if a passenger has a difference of opinion when it comes to validity. Recruitment processes these days do seem to have quite a bit of personality trait vetting, but that doesn't address the problem of a minority of existing staff who as has been said already in this thread, probably shouldn't be dealing with the public.

In these times of austerity and corporate parsimony, I can't see all TOCs investing in empowering their retail/revenue protection staff with both knowledge and the means to access the knowledge base, be that directly or through a dedicated helpdesk. It's not safety critical so doesn't warrant spending any more than what is absolutely necessary on it. In some quarters anyway!

RJ, feel free not to answer, but particularly with what you've said in your last couple of post, I'm interested to know, are you white? Is it a case that your face literally doesn't fit your ticket in the eyes of some people?

As you've asked, no, I'm black. I don't ever draw attention to that fact, because I don't feel it bears any relevance at all to the situations being discussed. It makes my blood boil when ignorant people who bring trouble on themselves come out with that inept line "its because I'm [insert random ethnicity] isn't it" and I wish to distance myself from that kind of immature and uneducated attitude.

Age discrimination is certainly a prevalent factor. I've been patronised more times than I care to remember by inspection staff. I do directly ask the police why they take the ticket inspector's word over mine (when I've also been trained on tickets) and entertain their decisions to have me put off trains or be detained. They often say it's because those inspectors have had years of experience. When I put it to them that they're age discriminating against me because I do look my age and they know that I can't compete with the magnitude of their experience, they're often lost for words and concede that I might have a point, especially when I start bringing in the rate at which things change and the quality of knowledge.

 

[Ferret]

How nice of them . Once I was on a bus minding my own business and the police saw me, turned around and followed the bus into Heathrow Central bus station. They came up to me at the bus stop and wanted to know what I was doing there at 11pm. Not content with me telling them I was travelling from Hayes to Croydon and that being the most convenient interchange, they decided to run every check possible on me. After a few hours, they were kind enough to escort me off the airport premises and leave me to find my own way home. I was being stopped by forces I never even knew existed, like the marine police! At one point I was collecting slips from all the different constabularies who had stopped and searched me and stuck them in my photography sketchbook!

You're a bad man RJ! Apparently there's a byelaw relating to Heathrow Airport that states you can't be in the airport area unless you are flying somewhere or meeting someone from a flight. Strict liability offence too

How on earth did you get stopped by the marine police?! I too didn't know that was a specific named Police force....

Anyway, I can only repeat what I've said before about RJ - it's the way staff are trained, or not trained (!!!) that's the problem. He'll also be seen as being difficult because he won't comply with the request to purchase a second valid ticket, and that's when the confrontation starts. Hardly the fault of RJ though is it?

 

[OwlMan]

Anyway, I can only repeat what I've said before about RJ - it's the way staff are trained, or not traned (!!!) that's the problem.

I agree that most staff would be grateful to have proper training as it does seem to be lacking in certain areas.
Most staff also accept that they may not be aware of the conditions/routeing that the customer is using and will either give the passenger "the benefit of doubt" or check up with control.

Unfortunately though there are staff out there who make up their own rules (and these can change day to day) to try and "catch out" customers who are breaking thiese made-up rules (and are travelling perfectly legitimately).
These "bad apples" need to reported to the TOCs and complaints made about their behaviour (hopefully the TOCs will act if there are enough complaints) as they give a bad name to other rail staff.

I have had about 10 problems over the last six months with EMT (including 6 occassions with one guard who still does not beleive the NRG & NRCoC apply to EMT), 1 with EC and none with other TOCs. I use Virgin and LM the most followed by XC and then EMT.

Once I was arrested and spent two hours at BTP York following a completely unfounded complaint from an EC guard (although I did get compensation from EC).
Another time I was not allowed to break my journey at Luton (an RPI stood by my seat so that I could not leave as they had BTP waiting at St Pancras ( I was actually travelling with a senior manager of ATOC at the time - the conversation at StP was interesting)
Last year I was threatened with BTP at Nottingham (I waqs on my way to meet an EMT manager over a previous complaint - this manager saw this guard "shouting & abusing" me on Nottingham platform and removed him from duty. (Unfortunately this meant that the Liverpool - Norwich train had to terminated at Nottingham)

With RJ & myself having these complaints I wonder how many more there are when people take the word of the guard as "gospel" and pay up for tickets they did not need and Penalty Fares they should not have received?

Peter

Peter

 

[RochdalePioneers]

Its a small minority of rail staff that's the problem, so please don't take offence at this the rest of you.

A few guards are of the view that anyone with a ticket they disagree with for whatever the reason is a fare evader. It may be cos lots of people are on the scam, or poor training, or they're worried their boss will come down on them unless they are hard on "fare evaders"

Because RJ is a "fare evader" he is directly insulting the guard who is not interested in things like due procedure or conditions of carriage or routeing guide rules - all excuses given by a fare evader trying to get one over on the guard who isn't going to stand for it on My Train.

As for why the TOCs then try and defend such behavior its because most good employers try to trust in their staff. When they refuse to look at evidence is when they become a bad employer.

As for why RJ attracts the BTP so much, are we so naive as to ignore his age and ethnic group and the way so many other people get treated by positions of authority across society for the same crime of who they are?

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2

 

[sarahj]

The problem is:

People like RJ seem to spend all their time looking for obscure routes with cheap tickets. When questioned, they seem quite put out that we, as frontline staff have not got the whole routing guide memorised. As you said. you once worked in a ticket office, that gave you time etc to find out way more details. Many frontline staff you come across, have many other things to do in our job, ie routes, safety, traction knowledge etc etc, with ticket training being one week in a classroom and then a wall plastered with bits of paper. Fares manuals are not even handed out.

We also come across everyday, people trying it on or trying to avoid fares.

EG. The other day at Falmer, a pass ran past me to board at the front of the train. Odd i thought. Went through the train and checked his ticket. He wished to buy one from Falmer to Brighton. I asked him 3 times, during the transaction if Brighton was his final destination. 3 times he said yes it was.
We then came to Brighton, where the noted pass jumped off mine and straight onto a FCC up to Bedford. I called for assistance and the pass was removed and was last seen 'talking' to the RNO's.

Yes, some staff can be rude, but if you spend your time looking for obscure fares, be prepared that you might be questioned or stopped.

 

[Tibbs]

The problem is:

People like RJ seem to spend all their time looking for obscure routes with cheap tickets. When questioned, they seem quite put out that we, as frontline staff have not got the whole routing guide memorised. As you said. you once worked in a ticket office, that gave you time etc to find out way more details. Many frontline staff you come across, have many other things to do in our job, ie routes, safety, traction knowledge etc etc, with ticket training being one week in a classroom and then a wall plastered with bits of paper. Fares manuals are not even handed out.

We also come across everyday, people trying it on or trying to avoid fares.

EG. The other day at Falmer, a pass ran past me to board at the front of the train. Odd i thought. Went through the train and checked his ticket. He wished to buy one from Falmer to Brighton. I asked him 3 times, during the transaction if Brighton was his final destination. 3 times he said yes it was.
We then came to Brighton, where the noted pass jumped off mine and straight onto a FCC up to Bedford. I called for assistance and the pass was removed and was last seen 'talking' to the RNO's.

Yes, some staff can be rude, but if you spend your time looking for obscure fares, be prepared that you might be questioned or stopped.

If you are presented with an obscure ticket that the passenger asserts is valid for their journey, and you don't know whether it is or not, what do you do?

 

[silencio]

How is it a passenger's fault/problem if staff are poorly trained? It shouldn't be.

 

[Mojo]

People like RJ seem to spend all their time looking for obscure routes with cheap tickets. When questioned, they seem quite put out that we, as frontline staff have not got the whole routing guide memorised.

Do you have any evidence of this? RJ has said in the past several times that when questioned, he always attempts to explain how and why the ticket is invalid, but in many cases the person is simply not interested in looking or listening. This is then followed up by incorrect, or inappropriate actions by the staff.

 

[yorkie]

The problem is:

People like RJ seem to spend all their time looking for obscure routes with cheap tickets.

How do you know how much time he spends, and how is that a problem? He's previously said it doesn't take that long anyway.

When questioned, they seem quite put out that we, as frontline staff have not got the whole routing guide memorised.

Sorry, who is "they"? Do you have any particular people in mind? Have you met RJ and if not, how do you know the people you refer to (whoeever they are) are "like RJ?"

As you said. you once worked in a ticket office, that gave you time etc to find out way more details. Many frontline staff you come across, have many other things to do in our job, ie routes, safety, traction knowledge etc etc, with ticket training being one week in a classroom and then a wall plastered with bits of paper. Fares manuals are not even handed out.

But none of that justifies failing to carry out the appropriate procedures, if you do not have the knowledge, it's not acceptable to deem a ticket invalid if you don't know. Is it?

We also come across everyday, people trying it on or trying to avoid fares

But that does not justify calling BTP on someone with a valid ticket, or trying to eject them from the train at a minor station. Does it?

EG. The other day at Falmer, a pass ran past me to board at the front of the train. Odd i thought. Went through the train and checked his ticket. He wished to buy one from Falmer to Brighton. I asked him 3 times, during the transaction if Brighton was his final destination. 3 times he said yes it was.
We then came to Brighton, where the noted pass jumped off mine and straight onto a FCC up to Bedford. I called for assistance and the pass was removed and was last seen 'talking' to the RNO's.

How has that any relevance to the situations described by RJ, Mojo, OwlMan etc in this thread? I fail to see any similarity.

Yes, some staff can be rude, but if you spend your time looking for obscure fares, be prepared that you might be questioned or stopped.

Does the "but" mean you are excusing "rude" behaviour? Also, the complainants are not just stating that staff were rude to them, it's far more serious than that.

I don't have a problem with being asked some questions, though perhaps you can clarify what you mean by "stopped" - do you mean denied travel if the ticket is valid but staff have not had sufficient training to determine validity?

 

[Paul Kelly]

I can confirm too from personal experience that it's shockingly easy how presenting a valid ticket during a routine ticket inspection can escalate to being threatened with the police. I was travelling with First Great Western before Christmas when this happened; I was travelling by the most obvious, shortest route for my journey and on a direct train (no routeing guide anomalies here!), but my ticket was dated the previous day and I had broken my journey overnight.

The inspectors I encountered simply did not entertain the idea that a ticket could be valid after the "Valid Until" date printed on it, and couldn't comprehend the meaning of the ticket conditions indicating so when they read them from their machine. I refused to buy an unnecessary new ticket or to leave the train and was threatened with the police, although in the end I was reported for prosecution instead. After a couple of months this was eventually dropped and in the end I received an apology from the managing director.

While my experience was quite unpleasant, I count myself lucky that I haven't had anything as bad as RJ's or Owlman's stories happen to me. But I can totally understand how those sorts of situations could arise with no additional aggravating factors other than presenting a ticket that the member of staff doesn't believe to be valid. That is really all it takes, when faced with certain badly-trained staff.

As others have said, looking at it from the staff member's point of view - they are convinced (due to bad training) that the passenger's ticket is invalid, and the passenger is refusing to buy a new ticket. Many will likely see the passenger as some sort of sophisticated fare evader who needs to be dealt with. It is this being so sure of their own actions (despite being in the wrong) where this sort of bad behaviour arises. It really doesn't require any additional goading or aggravation on the part of the passenger!

 

[RJ]

The problem is:

People like RJ seem to spend all their time looking for obscure routes with cheap tickets. When questioned, they seem quite put out that we, as frontline staff have not got the whole routing guide memorised. As you said. you once worked in a ticket office, that gave you time etc to find out way more details. Many frontline staff you come across, have many other things to do in our job, ie routes, safety, traction knowledge etc etc, with ticket training being one week in a classroom and then a wall plastered with bits of paper. Fares manuals are not even handed out.

Part of me being empathetic is patiently explaining to every single member of staff why my tickets are valid, should they question the tickets or raise an objection. I'm not put out in any way.

Some staff will take notice, whilsts others decide I'm not worth listening to for reasons only known to themselves. I've been accused of deliberately attempting to bamboozle them, or trying to talk rubbish to blag my way out of the situation. I even go as far as bringing out my laptop to show the relevant documents but more often than not, it's a pointless exercise. I do far surpass my obligations as a passenger.

Whilst in theory, explaining things to staff should see the problem solved, in practice it's often impossible for me to get a break as for whatever reason, some staff underestimate my credibility. If I tell them I work for, or have worked for the railways, I'm usually told any/all of the following;

- You should know better than to try it on
- You're going to be prosecuted for fare evasion
- You're going to lose your job
- You're never going to work for the railways again

I've asked time and time again how to get through to people like this without paying them off but nobody has come up with a practical solution yet!

I also think we need to get away from this "people like RJ" stance. You can't just categorise passengers and be so rigid in the way they're treated. Rather, treat them on individual merit. You'll get some sorts who will be knowitalls and enjoy putting others down, but that's not in my nature at all.

 

[reb0118]

I think that would ultimately be more hassle for the policeman if they attempted to charge someone on the basis of a valid ticket being invalid.

A policeman would have nothing to fear if he did so acting on the evidence of a credible witness, e.g a train guard. Now the credible witness could be in soapy bubble if he has acted maliciously but less likely if he has made a genuine mistake.

If you are presented with an obscure ticket that the passenger asserts is valid for their journey, and you don't know whether it is or not, what do you do?

If no fraud suspected then:-

1) State doubt to passenger and advise him to check at booking office.
2) Log details of ticket(s) used and check with supervisor when convenient. (or post request on the forum here )
3) Give tickets back to passenger & allow to travel.

If fraud suspected then :-

1) Retain tickets but explaining why
2) Obtain details from passenger and complete a TIR form.
3) Issue "zero fare" ticket to allow passenger to complete journey.

If blatant fraud then :-

1) Arrange for BTP to meet train at earliest convenience. If that is not possible then treat as a suspected fraud.

 

[silencio]

It appears that train guards/companies don't want to take any responsibility in investigating these issues. It appears to be a case of guilty until you jump through hoops to prove yourself innocent at your own inconvenience.