TFL Travelcard and Capping Changes

[mattdickinson]

Indeed - these could be people working shifts in catering, retail or hospitality. Lots of shops and restaurants have opening hours outside of 9am - 5pm and on weekend nowadays and pay minimum wage. These changes are all very well for teaching assistants, hairdressers and other early birds working part time, but not for those others mentioned.

Just thought, it would be a nice touch to allow holders of Two Together Railcards to get a discount on paper Travelcards, which they don't currently get. As a ticket office clerk, I warn buyers of this before selling the railcard.

They do at the moment for Travelcards covering more than Zones 1-9.

 

[LeeLivery]

The reason they want people using Oyster instead of buying a Off Peak 1-6 Travelcard (with a railcard as I do for £5.90) is that they charge the full peak fare on Oyster between 16:30 and 18:59, while the Off Peak Day Travelcard is valid throughout, therefore making a day out more expensive. Personally I think the way Oyster is done is a joke. TfL run my local NR station and yet the only thing they can do with Oyster cards is top them up. Making people go to a Tube station to add a railcard is ridiculous as is having to go through the long process to ring them up when they screw the fare up! They over charged me £7+ once. If I had no money on me or were struggling financially, I would have been stranded in the other side of London. (£7 can get me to and from work for 6 and a half days if working off peak).

I've been on buses where children in school uniforms have been turned away because they forgot or for some other reason don't an under 16 oyster. And of course with TfL's complete lack of listening to Londoners now can't even pay with cash. Some kids have a very long way to get home.

This forcing people to use Oyster and Contactless is insane when they can't even get the current system right. And the claim that Oyster is cheaper, for me is only by 5p a day at the peaks. I work part-time, hours ranging all parts of the day and these changes wont benefit me at all. It seems TfL/NR believe people only work in Zone 1. I work in Croydon! Why on earth can't the paper and Oyster tickets just be the same fare? That's the only true way to make it simpler.

Out of interest, how much will a Epsom + 1-6 Travelcard cost now?

 

[Bill Badger]

I would have no problem with the principle of pushing everyone onto contactless and Oystercard, if there was a way I could activate my Oystercard it as I go sailing through Surbiton on the fast line.

 

[radamfi]

I would have no problem with the principle of pushing everyone onto contactless and Oystercard, if there was a way I could activate my Oystercard it as I go sailing through Surbiton on the fast line.

Eventually smart ticketing (probably including contactless bank cards) will exist throughout south east England. But that doesn't guarantee that it won't be cheaper to get off at Surbiton, touch out, then touch back in again!

 

[Be3G]

Taking it to extremes, for someone travelling a few return journeys between, say, Zone 6 and a number of places outside Zone 1, only at off-peak times, we have gone from an off-peak Zones 2-6 cap, to an off-peak Zones 1-6 cap, to a peak Zones 1-6 cap albeit with a small reduction in price? Wonderful. What has the percentage increase been on that one?

That basically describes me.

2010 zone 2–6 off-peak travelcard: £5.10
2011 zone 1–6 off-peak travelcard: £8.00
2012 zone 1–6 off-peak travelcard: £8.50
2013 zone 1–6 off-peak travelcard: £8.90
2014 zone 1–6 off-peak travelcard: £8.90
2015 zone 1–6 off-peak travelcard: £12.00

Hey, it's only an increase of 235%.

 

[zoneking]

These changes will affect people like my elderly parents, whom I would not trust with an oyster. (My dad has early alzheimers and would forget to touch in or out if there were no barriers - he could even be prosecuted if he relied on oyster) They buy a zone 1-6 off peak travelcard.

 

[lightbulb]

Out of interest, how much will a Epsom + 1-6 Travelcard cost now?

With a railcard £6.80, rte Southern only. And at weekends and bank hols, it's £6.60 from Radlett, Potters Bar, and Cuffley. Zones 1-6 with a railcard will be £7.90, not £8.00.

 

[bb21]

With a railcard £6.80, rte Southern only. And at weekends and bank hols, it's £6.60 from Radlett, Potters Bar, and Cuffley. Zones 1-6 with a railcard will be £7.90, not £8.00.

Next year's fares have not been announced yet. These are fares from this year, albeit that they can be sold for travel next year at the moment.

 

[lightbulb]

Next year's fares have not been announced yet. These are fares from this year, albeit that they can be sold for travel next year at the moment.

I had wondered about that, but given that the fare for the Travelcard is showing at the new fare of £7.90, I thought it reasonable to assume that the other fares were next year's too.

 

[Tibbs]

So now that I've got a contactless card, with no railcard, can I just use my contactless now and dump my oyster and be no worse off, even with these changes?

 

[mattdickinson]

So now that I've got a contactless card, with no railcard, can I just use my contactless now and dump my oyster and be no worse off, even with these changes?

Yes, unless you want to use the riverboats, the Emirates Airline, or buses 15H, 402 and 477.

 

[Hadders]

These changes will affect people like my elderly parents, whom I would not trust with an oyster. (My dad has early alzheimers and would forget to touch in or out if there were no barriers - he could even be prosecuted if he relied on oyster) They buy a zone 1-6 off peak travelcard.

I'm no supporter of the changes but if your parents live inside London then surely they'd have Freedom Cards.

If they're outside then as far as we know outbound are travelcards will still be available, as now.

 

[Kite159]

Next year's fares have not been announced yet. These are fares from this year, albeit that they can be sold for travel next year at the moment.

Only time will tell if the outer boundary to London travel-cards will face a similar increase for the travelcard part of the ticket

 

[Hadders]

Only time will tell if the outer boundary to London travel-cards will face a similar increase for the travelcard part of the ticket

I agree that it will be very interesting to see how this all ends up.

How will any increases to outboundary off peak travelcards work with the fares basket. I know some fares can increase more than others (I still think there's an absolute maximum amount though), but if there was a massive increase then presumably other fares would have to increase by a much smaller amount?

Are outboundary travelcards regulated products? If so this may restrict the amount they can be increased by.

Could they be abolished altogether and a reduction applied to the Anytime Day Travelcard, in a similar way to what's happening within the zones? I suspect this wouldn't be a wise media move, particularly so close to a general election.

 

[Tibbs]

Yes, unless you want to use the riverboats, the Emirates Airline, or buses 15H, 402 and 477.

Thanks Matt.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Out of interest, how much will a Epsom + 1-6 Travelcard cost now?

I pay £8.10 with a railcard at the moment ( valid both routes ) so if the percentage rise is consistent I'd expect £10.95 from January with the railcard.

 

[phil beard]

I have a Network Railcard which is only valid when the discounted fare is £13 or more. I currently use an off peak 1-6 Travelcard and the current £8.90 cost is only discounted to £5.90 at the weekends. So I'm screwed nicely by them. Oyster cards are a scam that I have found out to my cost on several occasions. What's that? £30 million pounds in the coffers for incorrect journey clicks and taps and all that crap. Can't wait to get my Disabled Card soon!

 

[simple simon]

I am planning to send a letter of compliant to every member of the GLA, and in addition, if I can find the time to sort it out every suburban London MP. Why should my fares (I live in Z4) go up so that fares in zones 1-3 can come down?

Simon

 

[phil beard]

I am planning to send a letter of compliant to every member of the GLA, and in addition, if I can find the time to sort it out every suburban London MP. Why should my fares (I live in Z4) go up so that fares in zones 1-3 can come down?

Simon

Don't waste your time. Most of the people about whom you refer are either on expense accounts or have "company cars" and they don't give a stuff about you and me. It's the same whatever the Party.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I think it's delicious how Boris has shafted so many people yet the media are buying his line that he's only giving part-time workers what the LibDems say that they wanted. This isn't helpful to part-time workers, it isn't the part-time Travelcard that people wanted, and the spin and lies are disgraceful.

I can only hope that the people of Uxbridge remember it, but they probably won't.

The Tory members on the GLA won't care, the Lib Dems are too cowardly to stand up against it, and nobody listens to Caroline Pigeon or Valerie Shawcross.

 

[swt_passenger]

... This isn't helpful to part-time workers, it isn't the part-time Travelcard that people wanted, and the spin and lies are disgraceful.

Did you read the fairly well reasoned explanation of why a 'part time travel card' was not the answer?

5.2 A part time Travelcard would have to take the form of a ticket issued for a fixed number of consecutive days. The Oyster system is not currently set up to allow customers to buy a product and choose which days it is used. In order to address the needs of part time workers comprehensively we would need to create a 2-day, 3-day and 4-day product in addition to the range of daily and weekly products available with the weekly serving the needs of full time workers. It is possible to create these products within the Oyster system but this would be a significant addition to the range of tickets creating some 125 new ticket types from which customers will need to choose.
5.3 In order to assess the efficacy of creating new products we have analysed data from the Oyster card system. This shows that there are 1.3 million commuters who buy season tickets and use the transport system intensively. By contrast, there are 5.5 million users of Oyster pay as you go who show a variety of usage patterns. More than 40 per cent of these cards are used only one day a week and only 13 per cent are used three days a week. Even within that only 3 per cent of all cards are used for three consecutive days in a week. Moreover, these patterns are not necessarily repeated week after week on the same card, displaying perhaps that part time workers also tend to be flexible.
5.4 The data shows that the approach of creating new products will address only a small share of the market. A 3-day Travelcard alone will only appeal to three percent of those who use the transport network less than full time commuters. Even if these products are created there will be a need to look at their pricing. Creating these products and pricing them at multiples of today’s all day caps does not address the question of fairness. Moreover, it also does not provide the flexibility needed by those who work flexibly. In many cases customers, such as those on zero hour contracts, are not able to nominate in advance whether they will be working the next two or three days. Equally, part time workers may also use the public transport system, albeit less intensively, on their off days.

Seems fair enough to me...

 

[Tetchytyke]

Did you read the fairly well reasoned explanation of why a 'part time travel card' was not the answer?

It's an interesting enough argument, although it doesn't cover why a rolling weekly cap wouldn't work.

It's definitely not an argument that justifies scrapping off-peak travelcards and day caps though.

As I said, spin, lies and cow manure.

 

[gordonthemoron]

It's an interesting enough argument, although it doesn't cover why a rolling weekly cap wouldn't work.

It's definitely not an argument that justifies scrapping off-peak travelcards and day caps though.

As I said, spin, lies and cow manure.

it also doesn't explain how they can extrapolate current data to include more part time workers in the future, to paraphrase 'lies, damn lies and statistics'

 

[paul1609]

Could someone confirm that the armed forces 1/3 off railcard gives a 1/3 off regardless of whether they are in uniform or not. If so Lib Dems in the London Assembly are responsible for their travel costs of a Z 1-6 travel card more than doubling.

Yes, but you can put an armed forces railcard on a oyster. Most armed forces personnel that work in central London get an oyster season for their duty travel but make a notional contribution to cover their leisure travel.

 

[dcsprior]

That basically describes me.

2010 zone 2–6 off-peak travelcard: £5.10
2011 zone 1–6 off-peak travelcard: £8.00
2012 zone 1–6 off-peak travelcard: £8.50
2013 zone 1–6 off-peak travelcard: £8.90
2014 zone 1–6 off-peak travelcard: £8.90
2015 zone 1–6 off-peak travelcard: £12.00

Hey, it's only an increase of 235%.

If it increases to 2.35 times the original price, then its an increase of 135% (which is still an awful lot - an average annual rise of 18.7% a year is a lot higher than inflation!)

 

[simple simon]

My levels of train/tube travel in London have definitely fallen over the past half decade as fares have been increased, non-zone-1 caps removed etc., and I can't see that changing now that off-peak travel has increased by an extortionate 35% (as a zone 6 resident). I'm basically being priced off the rails and on to the buses.

Same here. I feel that I am being priced out and the loss of the £5.60 2-6 ODTC and £5.90 2-9 ODTC resulted in my reducing my travels and not attending Steam On The Met events on the Met Line.

I live in Zone 4 and often used the NLL from Stratford to Finchley Road & Frognal to switch to the Met Main Line.

Paper tickets triumph Oyster because the latter requires use of pink card readers (with financial penalty if forgotten) and also checks your journey times. One of the several times I've incurred a maximum (penalty) fare since Oyster started was when I travelled from West Brompton to Stratford (WLL - NLL) and waited about 25 mins for a through train and was then stung for exceeding the journey time limit! I later learnt that I should have used a pink card reader at Willesden Junction, but since I stayed on the train I could not do this. Another time was when I touched out on a free standing card but despite the right noises the touch 'failed'. This was at Elmers End which switching from train to tram and at a time when the tram card reader did not automatically end a train journey.

As an aside, I thought that ATOC rules state that passengers must be able to stay on the train, maybe though this only applies to split tickets. The Overground, being a mainline TOC, is subject to ATOC rules.

Simon

 

[Be3G]

If it increases to 2.35 times the original price, then its an increase of 135% (which is still an awful lot - an average annual rise of 18.7% a year is a lot higher than inflation!)

Whoops, yes, I knew that! Unfortunately, my tiredness trumped my maths A-level.

 

[bb21]

If it increases to 2.35 times the original price, then its an increase of 135% (which is still an awful lot - an average annual rise of 18.7% a year is a lot higher than inflation!)

I am impressed.

How many people would have claimed that it was an annual increase of 27% I wonder?

 

[Mojo]

Paper tickets triumph Oyster because the latter requires use of pink card readers (with financial penalty if forgotten) and also checks your journey times. One of the several times I've incurred a maximum (penalty) fare since Oyster started was when I travelled from West Brompton to Stratford (WLL - NLL) and waited about 25 mins for a through train and was then stung for exceeding the journey time limit! I later learnt that I should have used a pink card reader at Willesden Junction, but since I stayed on the train I could not do this.

<snip>

As an aside, I thought that ATOC rules state that passengers must be able to stay on the train, maybe though this only applies to split tickets. The Overground, being a mainline TOC, is subject to ATOC rules.

There is no need to touch the Pink reader at Willesden Jcn when doing a journey from West Brompton to Stratford. The default fare is for travel via zone 2-3 (i.e. £1.50 peak and £1.60 off-peak).

The Maximum journey time for a Zone 2-3 journey is 90 Min Mon-Fri daytimes and 110 Min evenings and weekends, so you must have been very close, given the journey time is a few Min shy of an hour, plus your 25 Min wait.

 

[Be3G]

I am impressed.

How many people would have claimed that it was an annual increase of 27% I wonder?

I have sometimes thought that logs are one of the most useful bits of maths people are unaware of, in this age of credit cards, huge mortgages and so forth. To be fair, I think a lot of people would realise the answer's not 27%, but they wouldn't necessarily know how to get the right answer.