Wrexham redouble

[paul1609]

I have to agree with you, its now become farce,unless its a total redouble like Gowerton,this is just playing with taxpayers money,which will soon run out.

The problems at Broad Oak should have been foreseen before the job started,not half way through it.So much for devolved Network Rail,Wales.

Try telling that to Southerns commuters in to London Bridge a major project years in the planning, a month on I think we are in to timetable change 10 to try and get it to work!

 

[merlodlliw]

I note Wrexham Railway Society have an evening devoted to the redouble next Monday, their information is below. The article appeared in todays North Wales Rail newsboard.
link
http://nwrail.org.uk/nwnews.htm]

Wrexham Railway Society news - by George Jones

The WRS meeting on Monday 9 February will feature a review of the project to redouble the line between Rossett and Saltney has been under way for the past twelve months.

Network Rail representative James Jackson is lined up to provide an in-depth presentation about the work involved and the prospects for completion. Given the recent announcement about a delay due to problems at the Broad Oak Crossing, members will be concerned to know when the project will be completed and an improved train service might be provided with increased line speeds and train capacity north of Wrexham.

A recent statement in the Wrexham Leader from Network Rail said: 'As part of this work, our plans for upgrading Broad Oak level crossing will now include the installation of an obstacle detection system.' The reasons why and the implications for this work will be of great interest.

Meeting is at St Mary's Social Club, Regent St, Wrexham. Doors open 19:00 for speaker to start at 19:45. Visitors welcome on payment of £2 fee.

 

[The Informer]

I note Wrexham Railway Society have an evening devoted to the redouble next Monday, their information is below. The article appeared in todays North Wales Rail newsboard.
link
http://nwrail.org.uk/nwnews.htm]

He's the Route Enhancments Manager. If anyone's got questions regarding capacity he should know the answers!

BTW Bob the works on the re-double are nowhere near as farcical as the A483 Posthouse Roundabout Works. Now thats a complete balls-up!!!

 

[The Planner]

I think he also used to be the customer relationship manager for ATW too.

 

[merlodlliw]

He's the Route Enhancments Manager. If anyone's got questions regarding capacity he should know the answers!

BTW Bob the works on the re-double are nowhere near as farcical as the A483 Posthouse Roundabout Works. Now thats a complete balls-up!!!

I agree the posthouse works are also a farce,works going ahead by the Highways Agency and A483 closures without even telling the neighboring Welsh Counties agencies & North Wales Police to put up signs the road was closed,traffic backed up to well past Ruabon.
Heres the Network Rail biographical details for the speaker

https://www.networkrail.co.uk/caree...uates/graduate/career-journeys/james-jackson/

Ill look forward to meeting him

 

[TDK]

We can always adjust the constituency boundaries.

Well WG are paying for something that is possibly 80% in England so I think a thank you from Cheshire would be a good gesture

 

[pablo]

Well WG are paying for something that is possibly 80% in England so I think a thank you from Cheshire would be a good gesture

But the only benefit is in escaping. It's no faster going home.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I agree the posthouse works are also a farce,works going ahead by the Highways Agency and A483 closures without even telling the neighboring Welsh Counties agencies & North Wales Police to put up signs the road was closed,traffic backed up to well past Ruabon.
Heres the Network Rail biographical details for the speaker

https://www.networkrail.co.uk/caree...uates/graduate/career-journeys/james-jackson/

Ill look forward to meeting him

Wonder what he'll say at a Edwina Harts comments about NR!

 

[merlodlliw]

I agree the posthouse works are also a farce,works going ahead by the Highways Agency and A483 closures without even telling the neighboring Welsh Counties agencies & North Wales Police to put up signs the road was closed,traffic backed up to well past Ruabon.
Heres the Network Rail biographical details for the speaker

https://www.networkrail.co.uk/caree...uates/graduate/career-journeys/james-jackson/

Ill look forward to meeting him

Wonder what he'll say at a Edwina Harts comments about NR!

I would expect the speaker and his staff to be well prepared,there is a friction about this work between the WG Minister and Network Rail(Wales),I will be interested in feedback from the January meeting between the Minister and Network Rail.,plus any future work which is on the cards to increase capacity.

 

[Phil from Mon]

Travelled up from Newport to Bangor on Gerald last night. The second track is reinstated all the way from the compound up to Salteney Junction, but the north end is still deep in ballast. Couldn't understand why the rails looked so polished (except at the northern end) when it is not yet in use, surely track machinery would not have done that. Does anyone know what the current date for the reopening is?

Glad to see also that the catering on Gerald is as good as ever, beef curry, rice and salad garnish for £4.99, plus some excellent bottled beers and terrific, friendly at-seat service in standard.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Travelled up from Newport to Bangor on Gerald last night. The second track is reinstated all the way from the compound up to Salteney Junction, but the north end is still deep in ballast. Couldn't understand why the rails looked so polished (except at the northern end) when it is not yet in use, surely track machinery would not have done that. Does anyone know what the current date for the reopening is?

Glad to see also that the catering on Gerald is as good as ever, beef curry, rice and salad garnish for £4.99, plus some excellent bottled beers and terrific, friendly at-seat service in standard.

What were the loadings like? Fair enough anything out of Cardiff at that time 1720 would be pretty well loaded but how many went beyond Shrewsbury?

 

[Phil from Mon]

What were the loadings like? Fair enough anything out of Cardiff at that time 1720 would be pretty well loaded but how many went beyond Shrewsbury?

Gareth, it was pretty full up as far as Abergavenny, then thinned out. I was in the carriage next to the buffet - we averaged about 12 right through to Chester. About a dozen came past from up front for food, not many came on at Shrewsbury, but a big crowd got on at Chester. Judging by numbers getting off in Fflint, Rhyl and Colwyn Bay I'd guess similar loading screen as my carriage in the others, upped to 25-30 in each from Chester, but that is a very rough estimate.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Gareth, it was pretty full up as far as Abergavenny, then thinned out. I was in the carriage next to the buffet - we averaged about 12 right through to Chester. About a dozen came past from up front for food, not many came on at Shrewsbury, but a big crowd got on at Chester. Judging by numbers getting off in Fflint, Rhyl and Colwyn Bay I'd guess similar loading screen as my carriage in the others, upped to 25-30 in each from Chester, but that is a very rough estimate.

Thanks Phil - I ask as i'm now able to use different trains up/down Marches since the extra services were introduced on the Cambrian. I came back from Cardiff on Thursday afternoon last week and decided against trying to squeeze aboard the 1550 to Manchester Piccadilly on the basis it was already full, only 2 car and was going to stop all stations to Shrewsbury. I waited for the 1621 to Chester via Crewe and to my surprise this was full all the way to Shrewsbury. This also was a 2 car 175 like the 1550. There were around a dozen NHS people that had been down overnight for some do in Cardiff from various parts of N Wales on it. They all seemed happy to get out of Cardiff an hour earlier and change at Shrewsbury rather than wait for Gerald.

Shrewsbury station was a bit of pain as we all had to go out through the barriers to get to Platform 3 (the 1709 ex BHM INTL splits into Aberystwyth and Holyhead portions at Shrewsbury) at the same time the London Midland 1705 ex New St arrived, the barrier staff were a bit hespered one issuing tickets and the other having to let people through to access 3 with a bit of throng behind.

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

There were around a dozen NHS people that had been down overnight for some do in Cardiff from various parts of N Wales on it. They all seemed happy to get out of Cardiff an hour earlier and change at Shrewsbury rather than wait for Gerald.

Yes, that was always my experience when I was in Cardiff with fellow NHS employees. I'd be happy to stay on for an hour or so and catch up with some work and wait for Gerald (more comfort and food) but amongst the others there was always a bit of a rush for the first available train. It obviously hasn't changed since I retired, then!

 

[Gareth Marston]

Yes, that was always my experience when I was in Cardiff with fellow NHS employees. I'd be happy to stay on for an hour or so and catch up with some work and wait for Gerald (more comfort and food) but amongst the others there was always a bit of a rush for the first available train. It obviously hasn't changed since I retired, then!

The lady opposite me was heading home to Llanberis so you can understand it.

 

[Chester1]

I am not sure if this would be politically possible but if the absurd plan of limiting the upgrade capacity to 1.5 trains per hour is not improved, wouldnt the best capacity solution be to extend Virgin trains services to Wrexham. Currently Wrexham has one per day. If the London-Chester terminating train was extended to Wrexham to replace the Holyhead-Birmingham International service, it would be an increase of 2-3 carriages per two hours (from 6-9 to 9-11). The Birmingham-Holyhead service could be replaced with two Holyhead-Chester service and a Birmingham-Bidston service, both every two hours (with one Bidston-Wrexham DMU freed up for other duties). People going from North Wales to Wrexham, Ruabbon, Shrewsbury etc would still have an hourly service through, just entirely provided by Cardiff services. If ATW was allowed to keep the extra DMU they could agree to it (like when they gain a DMU in 2008 when Chester-London trains became hourly). The WG would still gain an hourly Cardiff-Holyhead service. Seems a waste to only gain 2-3 extra carriages per 2 hours when capacity could be increased by 5 instead.

 

[The Planner]

If the London-Chester terminating train was extended to Wrexham to replace the Holyhead-Birmingham International service

No one will accept that.

 

[berneyarms]

Add to that, where would VT find the additional stock to do it?

Turn around time at Chester is approximately 20 mins. Extending to Wrexham would require extra sets.

Removing the direct connection from North Wales and Chester and Birmingham would not be acceptable, not only politically but practically too - they are very popular through services.

 

[TDK]

I am not sure if this would be politically possible but if the absurd plan of limiting the upgrade capacity to 1.5 trains per hour is not improved, wouldnt the best capacity solution be to extend Virgin trains services to Wrexham. Currently Wrexham has one per day. If the London-Chester terminating train was extended to Wrexham to replace the Holyhead-Birmingham International service, it would be an increase of 2-3 carriages per two hours (from 6-9 to 9-11). The Birmingham-Holyhead service could be replaced with two Holyhead-Chester service and a Birmingham-Bidston service, both every two hours (with one Bidston-Wrexham DMU freed up for other duties). People going from North Wales to Wrexham, Ruabbon, Shrewsbury etc would still have an hourly service through, just entirely provided by Cardiff services. If ATW was allowed to keep the extra DMU they could agree to it (like when they gain a DMU in 2008 when Chester-London trains became hourly). The WG would still gain an hourly Cardiff-Holyhead service. Seems a waste to only gain 2-3 extra carriages per 2 hours when capacity could be increased by 5 instead.

First of all a Birmingham - Bidston service would have to be a class 150 as class 158's are not passed on the Bidston line and this will cause massive problems as 150's do not have ERTMS screwing up all the unit diagrams.

The most obvious would be for the London to Chester Service be extended to Shrewsbury and then on to London as the Shrewsbury to London train does now probably every 2 hours maybe. I have noticed on the line between Wrexham and Shrewsbury that new boards have been erected but covered with black plastic, I suspect these maybe new speed boards that makes me think VT may be taking on this route as speeds are only increased when VT want them. The only other thing I can think these boards are for are the 67's if ATW have got the dispensation to run them higher than 60mph. Maybe Planner will know the reason for the new boards.

 

[craigybagel]

First of all a Birmingham - Bidston service would have to be a class 150 as class 158's are not passed on the Bidston line and this will cause massive problems as 150's do not have ERTMS screwing up all the unit diagrams.

The most obvious would be for the London to Chester Service be extended to Shrewsbury and then on to London as the Shrewsbury to London train does now probably every 2 hours maybe. I have noticed on the line between Wrexham and Shrewsbury that new boards have been erected but covered with black plastic, I suspect these maybe new speed boards that makes me think VT may be taking on this route as speeds are only increased when VT want them. The only other thing I can think these boards are for are the 67's if ATW have got the dispensation to run them higher than 60mph. Maybe Planner will know the reason for the new boards.

Isn't there a plan for it to go up to 90 along there? Not that theres much point north of Gobowen given how close the stations are. It'd be strange for them to be putting up separate boards for the 67s, since south of Shrewsbury they just run at MU speeds anyway.

 

[krus_aragon]

I am not sure if this would be politically possible but if the absurd plan of limiting the upgrade capacity to 1.5 trains per hour is not improved, wouldnt the best capacity solution be to extend Virgin trains services to Wrexham. Currently Wrexham has one per day. If the London-Chester terminating train was extended to Wrexham to replace the Holyhead-Birmingham International service, it would be an increase of 2-3 carriages per two hours (from 6-9 to 9-11). The Birmingham-Holyhead service could be replaced with two Holyhead-Chester service and a Birmingham-Bidston service, both every two hours (with one Bidston-Wrexham DMU freed up for other duties).

An interesting idea, even if it may be impractical for reasons given by others. I'd just note that surely you'd want to extend the Holyhead-Chester portion to be a Holyhead-Crewe service, replacing the current shuttle on the alternate hour.

First of all a Birmingham - Bidston service would have to be a class 150 as class 158's are not passed on the Bidston line and this will cause massive problems as 150's do not have ERTMS screwing up all the unit diagrams.

Having glanced back at the original refusal from 2005, access for 158s was turned down for two reasons: need for gauge clearance at some platforms (stated to be at ATW's expense) and inability to keep to the existing timetable due to extended dwell times. If the 158s were operating through from Birmingham on a new timetable, the latter may not necessarily be an issue. (No back-of-envelope calculations done yet.)

 

[Rhydgaled]

Removing the direct connection from North Wales and Chester and Birmingham would not be acceptable, not only politically but practically too - they are very popular through services.

The current Holyhead-Birmingham through services are very indirect, I think sometimes it can be quicker to change twice (at Chester and then Crewe) to get to Birmingham from north Wales.

Personally I think that is one of the benifits which north Wales coast electrification could bring; the ability to run through trains Holyhead/Bangor-Birmingham via Crewe. The current service via Wrexham and Shrewsbury could then be cut back to Birmingham-Wrexham or Birmingham-Chester freeing up ERTMS units to strengthen Cambrian services.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The current Holyhead-Birmingham through services are very indirect, I think sometimes it can be quicker to change twice (at Chester and then Crewe) to get to Birmingham from north Wales.
Personally I think that is one of the benifits which north Wales coast electrification could bring; the ability to run through trains Holyhead/Bangor-Birmingham via Crewe. The current service via Wrexham and Shrewsbury could then be cut back to Birmingham-Wrexham or Birmingham-Chester freeing up ERTMS units to strengthen Cambrian services.

If you are on the xx30 Chester-Shrewsbury-Birmingham (originates at Holyhead), you will reach New St at xx30 2 hours later.
But by changing at Chester into the xx35 Virgin service, and then into the xx01 Virgin to Birmingham, you will reach New St at xx05, 25 minutes ahead of the ATW service.
You can even change again at Wolverhampton into the following XC service which overtakes the VT service at that point, to arrive at xx58, 32 minutes ahead of ATW.
Of course, the connections need to work, although LM has 2tph Crewe-Birmingham if things go haywire.
Not many services have been diverted via slower routes since privatisation, but the North Wales-Birmingham service is one of them.
A couple of through early/late services run via the faster route, but they are for stock positioning more than anything.

 

[berneyarms]

The current Holyhead-Birmingham through services are very indirect, I think sometimes it can be quicker to change twice (at Chester and then Crewe) to get to Birmingham from north Wales.

Personally I think that is one of the benifits which north Wales coast electrification could bring; the ability to run through trains Holyhead/Bangor-Birmingham via Crewe. The current service via Wrexham and Shrewsbury could then be cut back to Birmingham-Wrexham or Birmingham-Chester freeing up ERTMS units to strengthen Cambrian services.

If you are on the xx30 Chester-Shrewsbury-Birmingham (originates at Holyhead), you will reach New St at xx30 2 hours later.
But by changing at Chester into the xx35 Virgin service, and then into the xx01 Virgin to Birmingham, you will reach New St at xx05, 25 minutes ahead of the ATW service.
You can even change again at Wolverhampton into the following XC service which overtakes the VT service at that point, to arrive at xx58, 32 minutes ahead of ATW.
Of course, the connections need to work, although LM has 2tph Crewe-Birmingham if things go haywire.
Not many services have been diverted via slower routes since privatisation, but the North Wales-Birmingham service is one of them.
A couple of through early/late services run via the faster route, but they are for stock positioning more than anything.

I'm not disputing any of that - but it doesn't always follow that people prefer faster journeys over those that involve no changes.

 

[craigybagel]

A couple of through early/late services run via the faster route, but they are for stock positioning more than anything.

1 per day each way, although apart from Sundays the southbound starts in Chester too early for any connection off the coast. Incidentally, whilst they take the fast route to/from Wolverhampton from Chester, south of Wolves they trundle around Bescot which doesn't help! Southbound you can change into the 05:45 Wolverhampton-Euston to speed things up, but the northbound trip at night has no quicker alternatives.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I'm not disputing any of that - but it doesn't always follow that people prefer faster journeys over those that involve no changes.

Be interesting to see some stats on North Wales/West Midlands flows from back in 2004 and compared to now against the general growth in usage.

 

[TDK]

Isn't there a plan for it to go up to 90 along there? Not that theres much point north of Gobowen given how close the stations are. It'd be strange for them to be putting up separate boards for the 67s, since south of Shrewsbury they just run at MU speeds anyway.

That is true but if the speed is enhanced to 90mph it will help the timings both at Shrewsbury and Newport for the WAG. Some are definitely speed boards as I have seen covered PSR warning boards also. They must have special dispensation to run at MU speeds south of Shrewsbury. The speeds from Wrexham to Shrewsbury are 70SP60 currently.

 

[Chester1]

Add to that, where would VT find the additional stock to do it?

Turn around time at Chester is approximately 20 mins. Extending to Wrexham would require extra sets.

Removing the direct connection from North Wales and Chester and Birmingham would not be acceptable, not only politically but practically too - they are very popular through services.

I am surprised the turn around is that low. Extending to Wrexham may only add 14 minutes if properly timed (the daily service waits for ages in Chester). If timings and mixing of stock for London-Scotland service were altered, perhaps it could be done with existing stock?

First of all a Birmingham - Bidston service would have to be a class 150 as class 158's are not passed on the Bidston line and this will cause massive problems as 150's do not have ERTMS screwing up all the unit diagrams.

The most obvious would be for the London to Chester Service be extended to Shrewsbury and then on to London as the Shrewsbury to London train does now probably every 2 hours maybe. I have noticed on the line between Wrexham and Shrewsbury that new boards have been erected but covered with black plastic, I suspect these maybe new speed boards that makes me think VT may be taking on this route as speeds are only increased when VT want them. The only other thing I can think these boards are for are the 67's if ATW have got the dispensation to run them higher than 60mph. Maybe Planner will know the reason for the new boards.

I think it would require the station improvements for Bidston to Wrexham to enable running 158s and not running a clock face timetable. This could enable extending the long distance service to Birkenhead North (2 mins), to double the connections with Merseyrail services. Running Wrexham London via Shrewsbury is too slow as Wrexham and Shropshires failed Open access service showed.

An interesting idea, even if it may be impractical for reasons given by others. I'd just note that surely you'd want to extend the Holyhead-Chester portion to be a Holyhead-Crewe service, replacing the current shuttle on the alternate hour.


Having glanced back at the original refusal from 2005, access for 158s was turned down for two reasons: need for gauge clearance at some platforms (stated to be at ATW's expense) and inability to keep to the existing timetable due to extended dwell times. If the 158s were operating through from Birmingham on a new timetable, the latter may not necessarily be an issue. (No back-of-envelope calculations done yet.)

The shuttle is mainly one DMU going back and forth for most of the day so Holyhead-Crewe wouldnt work.

The current Holyhead-Birmingham through services are very indirect, I think sometimes it can be quicker to change twice (at Chester and then Crewe) to get to Birmingham from north Wales.

Personally I think that is one of the benifits which north Wales coast electrification could bring; the ability to run through trains Holyhead/Bangor-Birmingham via Crewe. The current service via Wrexham and Shrewsbury could then be cut back to Birmingham-Wrexham or Birmingham-Chester freeing up ERTMS units to strengthen Cambrian services.

With the introduction of hourly services between Holyhead and Cardiff, there would be plenty of through services between north wales and stations between Chester and Shrewsbury. I dont think the number of people doing Noth Wales to Birmingham direct is actually that high. There is a huge number of people getting on and off at Chester and Shrewsbury. Under my suggestion they could use a Holyhead-Cardiff/Chester service and change at Shotton or Shrewsbury to get to Birmingham or simply go via Crewe.

 

[berneyarms]

I am surprised the turn around is that low. Extending to Wrexham may only add 14 minutes if properly timed (the daily service waits for ages in Chester). If timings and mixing of stock for London-Scotland service were altered, perhaps it could be done with existing stock?

VT have 18 out of 20 Voyagers rostered daily (19 on a Friday) - that is how tight their rostering is.

Extending to Wrexham would also add extra time in the other direction - not just 14 minutes one way. Add in turnaround time at Wrexham. That's adding up to 50-60 minutes, and I just can't see there being the flexibility to do that.

Changing the times on the WCML is not going to happen - that much I think you need to accept. They are cast in stone.

 

[The Planner]

I have noticed on the line between Wrexham and Shrewsbury that new boards have been erected but covered with black plastic, I suspect these maybe new speed boards that makes me think VT may be taking on this route as speeds are only increased when VT want them. The only other thing I can think these boards are for are the 67's if ATW have got the dispensation to run them higher than 60mph. Maybe Planner will know the reason for the new boards.

You need to be less cynical, it has nothing to do with Virgin and is all part of the WG drive for North South journey time improvements. They have been on the cards for years, I am amazed it has actually happened. They should should be 90 flat without differential unless it got squeezed.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

They must have special dispensation to run at MU speeds south of Shrewsbury. The speeds from Wrexham to Shrewsbury are 70SP60 currently.

I think they do in a similar vein to Chiltern and 67/68s, they match a MU braking curve without problem so they can run at the higher speed I suspect.