Wrexham redouble

[Gareth Marston]

I am surprised the turn around is that low. Extending to Wrexham may only add 14 minutes if properly timed (the daily service waits for ages in Chester). If timings and mixing of stock for London-Scotland service were altered, perhaps it could be done with existing stock?



I think it would require the station improvements for Bidston to Wrexham to enable running 158s and not running a clock face timetable. This could enable extending the long distance service to Birkenhead North (2 mins), to double the connections with Merseyrail services. Running Wrexham London via Shrewsbury is too slow as Wrexham and Shropshires failed Open access service showed.



The shuttle is mainly one DMU going back and forth for most of the day so Holyhead-Crewe wouldnt work.



With the introduction of hourly services between Holyhead and Cardiff, there would be plenty of through services between north wales and stations between Chester and Shrewsbury. I dont think the number of people doing Noth Wales to Birmingham direct is actually that high. There is a huge number of people getting on and off at Chester and Shrewsbury. Under my suggestion they could use a Holyhead-Cardiff/Chester service and change at Shotton or Shrewsbury to get to Birmingham or simply go via Crewe.

We must remember that the North Wales to South Wales market is less than 3% of the total North Wales market it is only around 150,000 journeys per annum in total. As with any defined region outside of the South East the predominate flows are within region (other N Wales UA's) , to the adjacent region (NW England) and then to London & SE. They account for near on 85% of usage other markets are fairly small, having a train every hour to Cardiff will not make any significant difference.

 

[The Informer]

You need to be less cynical, it has nothing to do with Virgin and is all part of the WG drive for North South journey time improvements. They have been on the cards for years, I am amazed it has actually happened.

Dont hold your breath, it should have been completed last year. The whole project has been mismanaged and passed around by IP and is nothing short of a shambles, the works required have been seriously underestimated!!!
Hopefully things have started to look up but its still a way off before we see 90mph between South of Whittington LC & Salop.

 

[krus_aragon]

The shuttle is mainly one DMU going back and forth for most of the day so Holyhead-Crewe wouldnt work.

Hm... don't be so quick to dismiss it. The Shrewsbury-Crewe service was mainly one DMU going back and forth until it was combined with the Shrewsbury-Llanelli diagram, to give through journeys. Several on this board have bemoaned the lack of through services from North Wales to Crewe.

I'm going to venture onto the back of the envelope now...

At the moment, Holyhead-Brimingham services cross with BHM-HHD services at Chester, roughly half an hour before the Crewe shuttle departs. If Holyhead-Cardiff goes hourly, the added services would presumably take the paths of the existing HHD-BHM service, for a clockface service. If the Holyhead-Chester service could be retimed (fitting around the Llandudno and VT services) to arrive at Chester half an hour earlier/later, it could continue as the xx:55 to Crewe. Having shuttled to Crewe and back twice, it would meet the next HHD-CTR service at Chester two hours later, and cross over with it.

A partial diagram may be something along the lines of:

1400 HHD-CTR, arr 1550 *
1555 CTR-CRE, arr 1618
1623 CRE-CTR, arr 1646
1655 CTR-CRE, arr 1718
1723 CRE-CTR, arr 1746
1750 CTR-HHD, arr 1945 *

Services marked * are running half an hour later than an existing service, all others are as currently timed.

This service would depart Holyhead just after the VT service (in the hours where they both operate), making use of the reduced headways expected from resignalling across Anglesey.

I've now run out of space on my envelope, so I'll have to leave it there.

 

[Welshman]

Whilst I applaud your attempts to provide a more regular Holyhead-Crewe service, I wonder what you would do with the present Llandudno-Manchesters, as your xx00 off Holyhead would seem to take over the path of the Manchester from the Junction, and your x50 from Chester back to Holyhead would run 5 minutes ahead of it.

To alter the Llandudno-Manchester pattern, with the consequent effects for services at Warrington, over Chat Moss and between Ordsall Lane and Piccadilly, would require a bumper pack of envelopes.

 

[TDK]

An interesting idea, even if it may be impractical for reasons given by others. I'd just note that surely you'd want to extend the Holyhead-Chester portion to be a Holyhead-Crewe service, replacing the current shuttle on the alternate hour.


Having glanced back at the original refusal from 2005, access for 158s was turned down for two reasons: need for gauge clearance at some platforms (stated to be at ATW's expense) and inability to keep to the existing timetable due to extended dwell times. If the 158s were operating through from Birmingham on a new timetable, the latter may not necessarily be an issue. (No back-of-envelope calculations done yet.)

They haven't got enough 158's to go to Bidston with the hourly Aberystwyths
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Dont hold your breath, it should have been completed last year. The whole project has been mismanaged and passed around by IP and is nothing short of a shambles, the works required have been seriously underestimated!!!
Hopefully things have started to look up but its still a way off before we see 90mph between South of Whittington LC & Salop.

So what are the new covered speed boards for between Gobowen and Salop?

 

[NI 271]

So what are the new covered speed boards for between Gobowen and Salop?

Forgive me, I'm still a novice so I could be miles off...but if they're only speed boards, there seem to be a lot of them. Is the linespeed going to fluctuate that much? I've noticed a few situated close to current whistle boards, and one or two approaching curves with foot crossings beyond (that don't currently have whistle boards), so I'd not be too surprised if a few of them turned out to have a 'W' on them. I'd assume if linespeed does increase, the distance between the whistle boards and associated crossings will also need to, and possibly some crossings where whistle boards aren't currently deemed necessary might be post-increase?

 

[craigybagel]

h
Hopefully things have started to look up but its still a way off before we see 90mph between South of Whittington LC & Salop.

Which is a pity because the WAG aside, that's the only part of the line trains will be able to make use of the new speed limit!

I think they do in a similar vein to Chiltern and 67/68s, they match a MU braking curve without problem so they can run at the higher speed I suspect.

That is true but if the speed is enhanced to 90mph it will help the timings both at Shrewsbury and Newport for the WAG. Some are definitely speed boards as I have seen covered PSR warning boards also. They must have special dispensation to run at MU speeds south of Shrewsbury. The speeds from Wrexham to Shrewsbury are 70SP60 currently.

My understanding is it is indeed special dispensation south of Shrewsbury. I don't believe it applies north of there, I think they're stuck at 60 on that section for now, but I'm open to correction.

Incidentally TDK, is that 20 mph PSR near Ruabon on the down still there? Seem to remember the track being in pretty awful condition there, but whilst I do sign the route i've not been down there for about a month.

 

[The Informer]

Incidentally TDK, is that 20 mph PSR near Ruabon on the down still there? Seem to remember the track being in pretty awful condition there, but whilst I do sign the route i've not been down there for about a month.

Its a 30/60 on the up at Rhosymedre. Poor track condition due to a bodged contractor track renewal job with a formation and drainage failure which coincidentally is getting an OTM treatment tonight!

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Forgive me, I'm still a novice so I could be miles off...but if they're only speed boards, there seem to be a lot of them. Is the linespeed going to fluctuate that much? I've noticed a few situated close to current whistle boards, and one or two approaching curves with foot crossings beyond (that don't currently have whistle boards), so I'd not be too surprised if a few of them turned out to have a 'W' on them. I'd assume if linespeed does increase, the distance between the whistle boards and associated crossings will also need to, and possibly some crossings where whistle boards aren't currently deemed necessary might be post-increase?

I reckon thats a pretty good assumption! ??????

 

[Rhydgaled]

With the introduction of hourly services between Holyhead and Cardiff, there would be plenty of through services between north wales and stations between Chester and Shrewsbury. I dont think the number of people doing Noth Wales to Birmingham direct is actually that high. There is a huge number of people getting on and off at Chester and Shrewsbury. Under my suggestion they could use a Holyhead-Cardiff/Chester service and change at Shotton or Shrewsbury to get to Birmingham or simply go via Crewe.

Ah, but that would nobble the electrification scheme; the marches isn't included as far as I know so anything reversing at Chester to head for Cardiff/Bimirmingham would be under the wires along the north Wales coast. My suggestion is an hourly Cardiff-Liverpool service (using the chord which is due to be reinstated) plus 0.5tph Birmingham-Wrexham/Chester and perhaps a local Shrewsbury-Wrexham-Chester service to boost that section to 2tph. That way, everything on the north Wales coast* goes from Chester on to Manchester or Crewe to minimise the ammount of electrification needed while maximising the use of the wires.

* Except Gerald and, if I had my way, 2 similar express services each way so there are breakfast, lunch and dinner expresses in both directions.

 

[po8crg]

There might be a decent case for Chester-Wrexham-Shrewsbury-Wolverhampton electrification (for like CP8 or so), but Shrewsbury-Newport is going to be a long way down the list.

 

[krus_aragon]

Whilst I applaud your attempts to provide a more regular Holyhead-Crewe service, I wonder what you would do with the present Llandudno-Manchesters, as your xx00 off Holyhead would seem to take over the path of the Manchester from the Junction, and your x50 from Chester back to Holyhead would run 5 minutes ahead of it.

To alter the Llandudno-Manchester pattern, with the consequent effects for services at Warrington, over Chat Moss and between Ordsall Lane and Piccadilly, would require a bumper pack of envelopes.

I knew I'd overlooked something big. In my defence, I was working on a small envelope.

 

[TDK]

Which is a pity because the WAG aside, that's the only part of the line trains will be able to make use of the new speed limit!






My understanding is it is indeed special dispensation south of Shrewsbury. I don't believe it applies north of there, I think they're stuck at 60 on that section for now, but I'm open to correction.

Incidentally TDK, is that 20 mph PSR near Ruabon on the down still there? Seem to remember the track being in pretty awful condition there, but whilst I do sign the route i've not been down there for about a month.

There was a 20mph ESR in place just past Vauxhall Crossing on the down line, it was increased to 50mph and now it has gone as the track has been re-laid.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Forgive me, I'm still a novice so I could be miles off...but if they're only speed boards, there seem to be a lot of them. Is the linespeed going to fluctuate that much? I've noticed a few situated close to current whistle boards, and one or two approaching curves with foot crossings beyond (that don't currently have whistle boards), so I'd not be too surprised if a few of them turned out to have a 'W' on them. I'd assume if linespeed does increase, the distance between the whistle boards and associated crossings will also need to, and possibly some crossings where whistle boards aren't currently deemed necessary might be post-increase?

There is a PSR warning board before Prince of Wales crossing I can only imagine this will be for the 15mph PSR at the bottom of Coton bank this is at least 1000m in advance of the current 15mph warning board. The next time I drive the route I will check how many boards there are. You do not need a warning board for a reduction from 90mph to 75mph I believe (correct me if I am wrong) hence no other PSR warning boards in place!

 

[NI 271]

There is a PSR warning board before Prince of Wales crossing I can only imagine this will be for the 15mph PSR at the bottom of Coton bank this is at least 1000m in advance of the current 15mph warning board. The next time I drive the route I will check how many boards there are. You do not need a warning board for a reduction from 90mph to 75mph I believe (correct me if I am wrong) hence no other PSR warning boards in place!

Yep, sounds right to me. I'm on there tonight, but I won't promise to count anything...my memory's that bad I'd only remember I was going to do it once I was was past Shrewsbury...

 

[craigybagel]

There was a 20mph ESR in place just past Vauxhall Crossing on the down line, it was increased to 50mph and now it has gone as the track has been re-laid.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Thanks, that's the one I had in mind alright. Not sure why I wrote PSR instead of ESR, I can only blame it on early shifts....

 

[Phil from Mon]

There is still about a mile of old jointed track on the redoubled section, is this going to be replaced? Also a report in the paper today that WG are to undertake development work to increase capacity between Wrexham and Chester, whatever that might mean.

 

[NI 271]

There is a PSR warning board before Prince of Wales crossing I can only imagine this will be for the 15mph PSR at the bottom of Coton bank this is at least 1000m in advance of the current 15mph warning board. The next time I drive the route I will check how many boards there are. You do not need a warning board for a reduction from 90mph to 75mph I believe (correct me if I am wrong) hence no other PSR warning boards in place!

There's a new speed board at CJ1R (it was partially uncovered last night, could see the red band around the edge), so I assume there's going to be another reduction (poss 90-60?) from there.

 

[The Informer]

There was a 20mph ESR in place just past Vauxhall Crossing on the down line, it was increased to 50mph and now it has gone as the track has been re-laid

Yes, that awful jointed section at the back of the houses at Johnstown. Out of interest, just before the contractors started the renewal they noticed some of the packs of steel sleepers had been overgrown by Japanese Knotweed, they had to scrounge packs from elsewhere to finish the job!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There's a new speed board at CJ1R (it was partially uncovered last night, could see the red band around the edge), so I assume there's going to be another reduction (poss 90-60?) from there.

It gets better...

Apparently Baschurch & Eyton area may remain at 70!!!

 

[TDK]

It gets better...

Apparently Baschurch & Eyton area may remain at 70!!!

This is most likely down to the AHB level crossings or signal sighting for CJ201 & CJ200?, so are you actually admitting the line speed is increasing?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There's a new speed board at CJ1R (it was partially uncovered last night, could see the red band around the edge), so I assume there's going to be another reduction (poss 90-60?) from there.

Probably due to braking distance and gradient to CJ1 from CJ1R

 

[The Planner]

Reeks of saying "we can deliver this" without actually doing the detail, sounds familiar....

 

[craigybagel]

So will anything be actually able to hit 90, and how long for?

 

[The Informer]

The linespeed is increasing but most thought it was a simple case of re-aligning and re-canting a few curves, moving the AHB strike in treadles out and slapping 90 boards outside Gobowen & Shrewsbury stations. Chances are that major infrastructure works along the section will not get the funding required for upgrade works and these sections will remain at 70, its so frustrating because it should be constant 90 from Gobowen to Shrewsbury with no increase and decrease in speeds.

 

[paul1609]

Im amazed that any speed increase is allowed at AHBs given their poor safety record.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

There is still about a mile of old jointed track on the redoubled section, is this going to be replaced? Also a report in the paper today that WG are to undertake development work to increase capacity between Wrexham and Chester, whatever that might mean.

This might not be new news, but on a rare run between Wrexham and Chester today I realised that double track is now fully in place between Saltney Jn and Rossett Jn.
The operational single line is now the new Down line throughout, instead of switching sides half way on the old track.
That means it is using the new track between Rossett and the A483 bridge.
The Up track is complete but still being worked on - a tamper or similar was working on it at Balderton today.
Signalling kit was also being installed on the Up side, and at level crossings.
As Phil says, there is still a stretch of jointed track on the old bit of the Down line, between Balderton and Green Lane.
Presumably they will switch the single line to the Up side when it is finished, and then finish off the Down.
Anyway, it's good to see an NR project that is not "paused".

 

[The Planner]

Not sure we could pause it with the WG chucking most of the cash in.

 

[Phil from Mon]

Not sure we could pause it with the WG chucking most of the cash in.

Maybe not on hold, but still running months late. Original completion for the revised scheme was scheduled for spring this year.

Did I read it was due to unexpectedly poor ground conditions?

 

[TDK]

Maybe not on hold, but still running months late. Original completion for the revised scheme was scheduled for spring this year.

Did I read it was due to unexpectedly poor ground conditions?

I have heard from an NR employee who was signal sighting in my cab the other day say the completion has been put back until February next year. Most of the AWS magnets for the new signalling is in place and also the bases and the paths for the signals with the SPT posts also being installed. Apparently all the LC will be OD operation with signals protecting all of them I suspect it will be 4 aspect signalling given the close proximity of some of the signals. As for the run between Gobowen and Shrewsbury I am not sure on group standards but is it permissible to have a line speed increased to over 75mph when AHB level crossings on the route? I know existing crossings are 90mph approach speed but I think I heard somewhere that permission is not allowed to increase a speed.

 

[Railman]

Standby for trouble if the crossings are OD type and signal protection, not least increased waiting time for motorists (full sequence of crossing closing then time for a full "green" signal sequence).

 

[The Informer]

Talk of a turnback layout being installed at Wrexham General to enable trains to run off the single section straight onto platform 3.
Wonder if its to enable a shuttle service to Liverpool via Chester and Halton Curve?

 

[The Planner]

Thats been knocking about for a good while, its never been able to wash its face money wise in the past.

 

[Philip C]

Talk of a turnback layout being installed at Wrexham General to enable trains to run off the single section straight onto platform 3.
Wonder if its to enable a shuttle service to Liverpool via Chester and Halton Curve?

As the service via Bidston from Wrexham General to Lime Street takes 81 minutes, I cannot see any particular virtue in spending much money to provide a through service via the Halton Curve, which is likely to take, roundly, 65-70 minutes and give far less penetration of the Liverpool city centre. For what it may be worth, I feel that starting the proposed Chester-Manchester-West Yorkshire service at Wrexham would have far greater traffic potential.