Virgin Trains railcard offer ended

[yorkie]

I've just put in the NRE journey planner and VT webpage for EUS to MAN depart at 08:00 and return at 18:00 on 9 September. They both show that railcards still allow the off-peak tickets on contra-peak trains whereas without railcards, only anytime and advance tickets are available.
So the return fare from EUS to MAN, out on the 08:00 and RETURN on almost any train will still be £53.85 with a railcard, the same as now. That makes sense as the early morning down trains are hardly full except for a few business travellers in 1st, where the discount doesn't apply.

You can buy a ticket for 9th September today and do that, of course. But you can't buy a ticket on the day. See post #147!
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do they really think people on Senior railcards are going to spend £150 to make a journey?

They might be naive enough to think this, and I expect one or two will do, but more likely in my opinion is that most Railcard holders will cease travelling on the travel on the lightly loaded "peak" trains and wait until the aforementioned 1900 service, and get to 'enjoy' the advertised "extra room to stretch out"

 

[matt]

How much earlier would you be prepared to leave to use a slower train? Or perhaps she should live somewhere closer to where she works; oh wait.

From Rugby the fast LM service is only about 5 minutes slower than the Virgin service.

 

[AM9]

Being discussed right now on R4 'You and Yours'.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Being discussed right now on R4 'You and Yours'.

They missed the point, concentrating on the short notice of the change.
VT just said it was a commercial decision, and brought them into line with everyone else.

 

[island]

At the end of the day VTWC is a business not a charity. Certain Railcard holders – my purple one was never accepted – have been obtaining fares way below the usual price for an extended period, and all good things must come to an end.

 

[Clip]

At the end of the day VTWC is a business not a charity. Certain Railcard holders – my purple one was never accepted – have been obtaining fares way below the usual price for an extended period, and all good things must come to an end.

But not without a gnashing of teeth and thumping of keyboards

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Given that Virgin are currently operating the WCML under a direct contract with DfT, a very differnet regime, there is every chance that they did not make this decision.... as a Whitehall insider this has the fingerprints of HMT all over it...

Agreed.

In much the same way that Virgin won't have decided off their own back to install ticket gates at various locations.

And referring to other threads, almost certainly that Northern won't have decided off their own back to be more vociferous with their Failure to Pay scheme.

 

[Haywain]

If and when GNWR launches I would be interested to see if they decide to undercut the Virgin Trains by operating much cheaper fares causing Virgin Trains to re-think their policy.

GNWR will want to undercut to get some passengers from Virgin, but won't want to force Virgin to reduce their fares as a significant part of their business case relies on taking a share of Virgin's revenue through ORCATS.

 

[Merseysider]

I'm currently on the 0700 LIV-EUS (calling only at Runcorn). There are approximately ten people in my carriage and from waiting at Lime Street, I'd estimate a similar number in each other carriage. About thirty people boarded at Runcorn.

It wouldn't surprise me if this number declined after the railcard easement ends. So Virgin will effectively be carting fresh air around, pushing people onto even busier services.

The 1500-1600 services north aren't going to be much busier either. These should be excluded from the peak restrictions (who finishes work at 1430?)

I can only echo previous posters in agreeing that the 1900 (and similar) services are the true 'peak'.

I imagine a fair number of people will switch to London Midland's Anytime fares, which even without railcard, are competitive.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And referring to other threads, almost certainly that Northern won't have decided off their own back to be more vociferous with their Failure to Pay scheme.

I would expect in that case they were simply told to reduce ticketless travel to a given level, and how they did that was up to them. I doubt they were prohibited from using different methods e.g. more barriers (at their cost) or proper PFs (again at their cost).

Most likely VT were the same - a specified revenue increase. Though that said, this example does complicate ticketing in a way that other issues don't, so perhaps they were asked to lose it on that basis as well.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I can only echo previous posters in agreeing that the 1900 (and similar) services are the true 'peak'.

That's only because of the excessive fares in the peak proper, though, isn't it?

 

[Clip]

I'm currently on the 0700 LIV-EUS (calling only at Runcorn). There are approximately ten people in my carriage and from waiting at Lime Street, I'd estimate a similar number in each other carriage. About thirty people boarded at Runcorn.

It wouldn't surprise me if this number declined after the railcard easement ends. So Virgin will effectively be carting fresh air around, pushing people onto even busier services.

The 1500-1600 services north aren't going to be much busier either. These should be excluded from the peak restrictions (who finishes work at 1430?)

I can only echo previous posters in agreeing that the 1900 (and similar) services are the true 'peak'.

I imagine a fair number of people will switch to London Midland's Anytime fares, which even without railcard, are competitive.

A train has a set cost and if the 130 people covered that cost then im sure Virgin don't care too much about anyone else not getting on.

That's only because of the excessive fares in the peak proper, though, isn't it?

Indeed because as we all know and gets repeated on here that the ticket determines validity not the actual time of the train

 

[yorkie]

That's only because of the excessive fares in the peak proper, though, isn't it?

Absolutely. It's due to the high cost of Anytime tickets from the London area to various WCML destinations (e.g. 4 times higher in the case of London to Manchester).
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Indeed because as we all know and gets repeated on here that the ticket determines validity not the actual time of the train

True. The lightly loaded trains at "peak" times can be used by holders of Off Peak tickets such as Ipswich to Manchester, Milton Keynes to Manchester and so on.

 

[Starmill]

At the end of the day VTWC is a business not a charity. Certain Railcard holders – my purple one was never accepted – have been obtaining fares way below the usual price for an extended period, and all good things must come to an end.

I think everyone should have accepted this a long time ago. I've been disappointed for years that essentially people with a certain type of railcard (and even then not for every journey) get offeree reasonable fares all day while most are left to suffer the £330 nonsense. The railcard easement was a terrible solution to the loading probablems but likely played it's part in revenue terms.

Now VT need to find some other way to solve the loading issues - the debate has moved on from the railcard easement to the general fares structure (see my previous post on the matter). Also let us remember that empty trains don't cause PR problems - trains with standees for 2 hours on the other hand...

 

[Clip]

True. The lightly loaded trains at "peak" times can be used by holders of Off Peak tickets such as Ipswich to Manchester, Milton Keynes to Manchester and so on.

True. But people on this forum never think outside the box like that and will solely focus on London to Manchester/Liverpool point to point journeys when trying to make a point.

 

[Starmill]

The examples given in this thread are representative of the sample journey being made. These are the range of tickets available at the ticket office for journeys from London to Manchester. You're keen to remind us that to remind us that ticket offices aren't permitted to "think outside the box" as you put it - and how many people do you think actually travel from Ipswich to Manchester?

The key point stands very firmly which is what the resrictions are and what the Advance prices are usually like (see my post on the matter). Just because you don't like the criticism it doesn't make it less valid. There's a sensible debate to be had here regarding the West Coast Anytime fares but if you'd prefer to musling there's no point.

 

[martinsh]

There's a sensible debate to be had here regarding the West Coast Anytime fares but if you'd prefer to musling there's no point.

I wondered what musling was for a minute there !

 

[Clip]

The examples given in this thread are representative of the sample journey being made. These are the range of tickets available at the ticket office for journeys from London to Manchester. You're keen to remind us that to remind us that ticket offices aren't permitted to "think outside the box" as you put it - and how many people do you think actually travel from Ipswich to Manchester?

Ive never said they are to think outside the box - I have always said they are to give the customer what they ask for - there is a startling difference between the two and you know that but you don't want to admit it. I have no idea and nor do I care - I didn't use those examples, and they were just examples used by Yorkie to illustrate my point on it being the ticket that defines the validity and not that time as Jake had alluded too.

The key point stands very firmly which is what the resrictions are and what the Advance prices are usually like (see my post on the matter). Just because you don't like the criticism it doesn't make it less valid. There's a sensible debate to be had here regarding the West Coast Anytime fares but if you'd prefer to musling there's no point

I do like museli I must say and the point isn't about the price of VTWC anytime fares merely the removal of the railcard on such fares - the pricing has been done to death many a time - to bring them in line with everyone else.

And Ill repeat - Virgin wont care - a train costs what it costs to run( and staff costs are a small part of that) so if they can make money with fewer people on the train then that's up to them to make that choice.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If they know specific trains are quiet, they may make a good place to use single Voyagers, freeing up units for busier services.

 

[button_boxer]

If they know specific trains are quiet, they may make a good place to use single Voyagers, freeing up units for busier services.

There may be specific services that are quiet enough for this, but I doubt you'll find an entire diagram where it would work.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There may be specific services that are quiet enough for this, but I doubt you'll find an entire diagram where it would work.

Try the 1610 off Euston for one, it's a single Voyager which is a perfect fit.

 

[Starmill]

I do like museli I must say and the point isn't about the price of VTWC anytime fares merely the removal of the railcard on such fares - the pricing has been done to death many a time - to bring them in line with everyone else.

West Coast's Anytime Fares are not in line with everyone else, that's the whole point. The railcard discount still applies, a special concession does not as it used to, which will starken the difference and create new problems with loadings.

And Ill repeat - Virgin wont care - a train costs what it costs to run( and staff costs are a small part of that) so if they can make money with fewer people on the train then that's up to them to make that choice.

You can repeat it as many times as you like. It isn't going to make most of us who take a more holistic view of the Railways in total somehow change our minds about it being a sensible strategy when space is so clearly at a premium.
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If they know specific trains are quiet, they may make a good place to use single Voyagers, freeing up units for busier services.

There may be specific services that are quiet enough for this, but I doubt you'll find an entire diagram where it would work.

But how does this help? The busiest services are already an 11-coach Pendolino, and they can't provide more capacity than that. The problem is with the busy services, not the quiet ones. It isn't sensible to look at the problem by asking where they can shorten trains of they can't go on to lengthen them elsewhere. The next most obvious step to me is to look at where they can shift people from fuller trains to ones that are less full - or look at why they're so full in the first place...

 

[AM9]

But how does this help? The busiest services are already an 11-coach Pendolino, and they can't provide more capacity than that. The problem is with the busy services, not the quiet ones. It isn't sensible to look at the problem by asking where they can shorten trains of they can't go on to lengthen them elsewhere. The next most obvious step to me is to look at where they can shift people from fuller trains to ones that are less full - or look at why they're so full in the first place...

I think that those regularly using the trains into Euston in the morning peak and back in the evening peak are the most painful to VT, - why didn't they just remove that part of the concession. The contra-peak trains are so lightly loaded, (even the 08:00 Euston to Manchester) which must be a prime business service. That would at least allow them to gain leisure travel revenue that probably wouldn't be there with the anytime rates. I know that railcards don't normally start before 09:30 but the business would be there if the concession allowed it.

 

[Clip]

West Coast's Anytime Fares are not in line with everyone else, that's the whole point. The railcard discount still applies, a special concession does not as it used to, which will starken the difference and create new problems with loadings.

I see you have selectively chosen to read my post - I didn't mention that the fares were being brought into line just the restrictions on the use of a railcard - but well done for trying to twist it to suit your own argument

You can repeat it as many times as you like. It isn't going to make most of us who take a more holistic view of the Railways in total somehow change our minds about it being a sensible strategy when space is so clearly at a premium.

Its called having options and price vs speed when it comes to Virgin and LM. Many people are happy to pay for speed and many are happy to pay on price. Doesn't matter how you try and twist it that is how people choose when and how to travel. If it was all about price then you would see many more people take the cheaper option of the coach.

 

[LeylandLen]

Up here in Preston , I can understand reasons for withdrawing this concession on Virgin; Ive used it myself with a Disable Railcard to/from Euston , now using Senior Railcard. In Preston Lancaster we are about same distance time wise from Euston or Glasgow/ Edinburgh.Obviously loadings at peak at not comparable to Glasgow and Edinburgh with Euston , I just think its not good losing this concession for peak time trips to Scotland especially with days drawing in , and in run upto Christmas. Does TPE have say, as they compete with Virgin from Preston to Glasgow/Edinburgh ?

 

[Starmill]

Yep well fair there's nothing I can say to get in the way of this being right. People on cheap tickets will just have to lump it or be richer, trains are expensive. People on busy trains (even if they're on expensive tickets) will also just have to lump it or wait for the next one (obviously they can't claim compensation) - some trains are busy.

The primary consieration really is that HMT get the levels of cash they're expecting out of West Coast so that all of these trains continue to be viable. This MC=MR approach gives us the best outcome for the company, the government and the passenger.

 

[John @ home]

Up here in Preston ... I just think its not good losing this concession for peak time trips to Scotland

I don't think that has been lost. The concession applied to the Railcard Off-Peak Return (SVR) fare. The £45.50 Railcard SVR Preston Lancs - Edinburgh route Via Carlisle (and to 13 other destinations in central Scotland) remains valid by any train except those timed to depart Mondays-Fridays before 0415.

 

[martin43]

Afternoon all,

Can someone answer a question for me?

I understand the new rules will come in to force on 7th September.

Can I purchase an off peak ticket today (4th September) for travel on the 9th September on a peak time train?

I'm not sure that I understand the rules correctly.

Thanks

Martin

 

[bb21]

If it is purchased before 6th then you can.

 

[martin43]

bb21 many thanks, I'll be heading to the station tonight.

Can you specify an outward date?