Virgin Trains railcard offer ended

[LeylandLen]

I have a senior railcard. ok , I can buy as many off-peak tickets as required to use on peak services from , say Man Picc to/from Euston BEFORE 6th Sept to use after that date,but as I see it the outbound ticket is only valid on one day,as you will have to plan ahead and buy a ticket for a particular day , whereas now , as it stands, I can buy the ticket on day of travel .

 

[najaB]

Lazy ageist stereotyping, I'm a baby boomer and certainly don't have (and never had have) a defined benefit pension. The majority of us don't:roll: The "me" in my post was I agree ambiguous, but I meant it was my saying, not that I was one of the lucky few.

These posts will likely be deleted soon, but hopefully not before you get to read this. I don't think it's ageist to refer to baby boomers and defined benefit pensions in the same sentence as they were common when your generation were starting careers, and are rarer than hen's teeth in mine. (Pretty sure the last ones closed to new members many years ago).

 

[yorkie]

I have a senior railcard. ok , I can buy as many off-peak tickets as required to use on peak services from , say Man Picc to/from Euston BEFORE 6th Sept to use after that date,but as I see it the outbound ticket is only valid on one day,as you will have to plan ahead and buy a ticket for a particular day , whereas now , as it stands, I can buy the ticket on day of travel .

True.

But, let's say you are happy to commit to travelling on 10th December, but want to make another trip on an unknown date a month later. You can buy a Manchester to Euston Off Peak Return for the 10th, and a London to Manchester Off Peak Return also for the 10th, you then have one month to make another journey which you can choose to make on the day.

Of course it's not ideal but this workaround may be suitable for some.

I know several people booked tickets using this method when Sheffield to Tonbridge Off Peak Returns were about £8

 

[thenorthern]

Not seen a thread on this yet but according to several news articles which have been confirmed by Virgin Trains they are axing the easement that allows railcard holders to use Off-Peak tickets on peak time services. The new fare rules will be in place from Monday the 7th of September

Virgin scraps railcard loophole on West Coast trains

Fares set to rise for some railcard users who will no longer be able to buy off-peak tickets for use on peak-time trains

Virgin has scrapped a loophole that allowed railcard users to buy cheap West Coast train tickets in a move which that will result in at least one fare rising from £54 to £217. Others will triple in price.

The company has said on bookings made after 6 September, railcard users will no longer be able to purchase off-peak tickets for use on peak-time trains – as they have been able to, until now.

The move, which brings Virgin West Coast in line with the rest of the rail industry, will particularly hit those who used to rely on the cheaper tickets to travel in and out of London. It’s also the third stealth fare increase by Virgin in six months.

An anytime return between London and Manchester currently costs £329, but the journey has been available to railcard holders at £53.85. In future, railcard users will get just a third off the full price, meaning the passenger will pay £217 – four times the previous price for the same journey.

The little-publicised move will affect all railcard holders, and will be a huge blow to those who have grown used to taking advantage of the offer. It will mean they will have to pre-book cheaper advanced fares several weeks prior to travel if they want an affordable fare.

The Guardian
http://www.theguardian.com/money/2015/aug/26/virgin-scraps-railcard-loophole-on-west-coast-trains

Someone has also created a petition to "Stop Virgin Trains Ridiculous Railcard Fare Rises" although unlike the West Coast Franchise petition I doubt Virgin Trains will be promoting this one.
https://www.change.org/p/virgin-trains-stop-ridiculous-virgin-train-fare-rises

I do personally use this easement occasionally and I would rather see it not go however I do find it can be rather unfair on other passengers so I can see why Virgin Trains are scrapping it. I also think it will end some of the confusion over if a ticket is valid or not as to many people it can be rather complicated.

What does everyone else think of the decision?

 

[syorksdeano]

Wouldn't this result in a change of terms and conditions for ALL card holders?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Wouldn't this result in a change of terms and conditions for ALL card holders?

No, because it is not part of the Railcard T&Cs, it is an easement offered by Virgin Trains alone (for the next 5 days, anyway).

 

[Urban Gateline]

I have heard a recorded announcement being played over the station PA regarding the removal of the VT Railcard easement at Watford Junction, so at least at LM operated stations passengers are being made aware!

 

[Mag_seven]

More abuse of our language by the media:

Virgin has scrapped a loophole

Its not a "loophole", its an easement or concession.

stealth fare increase

Its not a "stealth" increase as it has not been introduced in an underhand or sneaky way - it has been announced up front by Virgin.

 

[gray1404]

Personally, I wish they would keep this easement! I don't care who else runs the West Coast franchise now. This is the final straw for Virgin cutting back their service provision.

 

[Paul Kelly]

Its not a "stealth" increase as it has not been introduced in an underhand or sneaky way - it has been announced up front by Virgin.

I disagree; it's not a "stealth easement withdrawal", but it is a "stealth fare increase", in the sense that the fares required to be paid by certain people for certain journeys will greatly increase, without any changes to the prices of those fares.

 

[yorkie]

More abuse of our language by the media:

Its not a "loophole", its an easement or concession.

I completely agree.

Its not a "stealth" increase as it has not been introduced in an underhand or sneaky way - it has been announced up front by Virgin.

Hmm... I'm not so sure about that...

https://www.virgintrains.co.uk/help-and-contact

Q: I have heard you are no longer going to accept Railcards on Peak services. Is this true?
A: No, don't worry, we still accept Railcards on our Peak services. The only change is that you'll now need to buy a Peak Advance or Anytime ticket using your Railcard discount (rather than an Off-Peak ticket).

should read something like this if they were being totally honest:

Q: I have heard you are no longer going to accept Railcard discounted Off Peak fares on Peak services. Is this true?
A: Yes, now worry. The change is that for the same flexibility you had before, you need to pay around four times[1] the price you paid before and buy an Anytime ticket using your Railcard discount (rather than an Off-Peak ticket)

[1] Manchester - London SVR £53.85 / SOR £217.15

Of course they are not admitting the full impact of the changes because they don't want people to realise how much some customers costs will increase by.

Whether or not you support the change (if they increase the Advance quotas to ensure that demand is spread more evenly, then I'd be all for it) the fact is they are telling people not to worry (!) when their fare is rising by a factor of 4 and that isn't really acceptable in my opinion.

They should just be totally honest and take the hit!

 

[thenorthern]

I wonder if all the people who are moaning about the fare rises are the ones who signed the petition in 2012 to reconsider the decision to award the franchise to First group.

 

[gray1404]

I wonder if it means a lot more people who formerly travelled using the easement on VT but don't (or can't afford to) will start travelling on London Midland from places like Liverpool, Crewe (and stations down the WCML South thereof) and Birmingham to London Euston? I am hoping this will not place too much additional demand on LM services or prompt them to put their prices up.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Passengers from Lancaster northwards or from North Wales Coast stations are not as badly affected as those nearer Euston.
Off-peak restrictions are 3A and VK respectively, which allow arrival in Euston by earlier trains (1005 and 1025).
Liverpool/Manchester/Preston/Chester southwards take restriction 2C (1130).
It's also less restricted northbound, eg only the 1610 is banned to North Wales.
No break of journey though, unlike 2C, so no starting/finishing short.
That's assuming Virgin don't change the time restrictions as well!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I wonder if it means a lot more people who formally traveled using the easement on VT but don't (or can't to) will start traveling on London Midland from places like Liverpool, Crewe (and stations down the WCML South thereof) and Birmingham to London Euston? I am hoping this will not place too much additional demand on LM services or prompt them to put their prices up.

I'd imagine it will just make those people use off-peak trains or Advances more.

 

[Starmill]

I'd imagine it will just make those people use off-peak trains or Advances more.

Don't be so sure. Advances have been around long enough now that people aren't thick. They know that they're likely to be treated as second class customers (regardless of the class on their ticket!) if they use Advances. It's a significant loss of rights (to change your mind, not to go, to have a different seat reservation or to upgrade your class and so on and so forth) and such a complete loss of all flexibility (such as the nonsense whereby local trains to connect with the InterCiy Virgin leg become fixed in the itinerary for no reason) that the oftentimes relatively marginal discount over 1/2 an Off-Peak Return is unlikely to be worth it.

That's why London Midland play a part, by having very reasonable Off-Peak prices indeed and sensible restrictions. LM also offer an Advance from the North West to London at a price people can see is fair for the booked-train-only, no-rights-otherwise product they're getting, which is £10-£15. Those who try the service out and it's a /3 will also probably realise this is a much more comfortable train that Virgin have as well!

The people who should perhaps be most worried about this change are the poor Atherstone passengers (all 10 of them) who mighn't be able to get on and have no alternatives. Oops!

 

[Bletchleyite]

LM also offer an Advance from the North West to London at a price people can see is fair for the booked-train-only, no-rights-otherwise product they're getting, which is £10-£15.

LM fares are excellent value, but I think you are (as usual) underpricing things. In the mid to late 1990s BR InterCity's cheapest SuperApex fare from Liverpool to London return was £19, and it was very difficult to get (for instance, the quota had to be available on the chosen trains in *both* directions - it was the much derided Virgin Trains who moved to single fare pricing to prevent this problem). The Apex was £25, and also very difficult to get even if booked weeks in advance.

Inflation has probably doubled the cost of living since then. Is £40-£50 return all that unreasonable in that context?

 

[Starmill]

It is I'm afraid, purely on the basis that, at that time, the fully flexible fare didn't cost, oh yeah £330!

 

[OwlMan]

Georgia May is quoted as saying

Bringing in this new policy is justified on the grounds that railcard users will still be eligible for a third off ticket prices, however, as this discount now applies to a higher fare, I will still have to pay treble what I do now. I have checked with the Rugby station helpdesk today and they confirmed the new price for my daily commute is going to be £86 whereas I currently pay £27.This is clearly unsustainable as it is more than my entire daily wage.

But her daily commute would only cost £190.60 or £141(if using LM only) per week using a season ticket. Which is a £6 increase if she uses LM (and travels 5 days)

 

[Bletchleyite]

It is I'm afraid, purely on the basis that, at that time, the fully flexible fare didn't cost, oh yeah £330!

I can't remember what it did cost, but I would guess around £150 in today's real terms, which is still too much for the average student etc. Past a certain point it matters not what it is for those users, it's still too expensive and therefore completely irrelevant.

 

[najaB]

They know that they're likely to be treated as second class customers (regardless of the class on their ticket!) if they use Advances. It's a significant loss of rights (to change your mind, not to go, to have a different seat reservation or to upgrade your class and so on and so forth) and such a complete loss of all flexibility (such as the nonsense whereby local trains to connect with the InterCiy Virgin leg become fixed in the itinerary for no reason) that the oftentimes relatively marginal discount over 1/2 an Off-Peak Return is unlikely to be worth it.

We get that you can't afford Virgin's full-fare prices however there are enough people who can that it makes business sense for them to set them at the level that they do. If people didn't buy them, then they would be cheaper.

 

[Starmill]

Georgia May is quoted as saying

But her daily commute would only cost £190.60 or £141(if using LM only) per week using a season ticket. Which is a £6 increase if she uses LM (and travels 5 days)

How much earlier would you be prepared to leave to use a slower train? Or perhaps she should live somewhere closer to where she works; oh wait.

 

[thenorthern]

Back in the days of First North Western I know that they had a direct London train was notable for its long wait at Tamworth because of pathing constraints. Virgin Trains I think then introduced cheaper fares causing to get more passengers. The Virgin Trains fares have gone up considerably since then.

If and when GNWR launches I would be interested to see if they decide to undercut the Virgin Trains by operating much cheaper fares causing Virgin Trains to re-think their policy.

 

[Starmill]

Monday 7th September is the first day that the concession ends for walk-up custom. So what's likely to happen? Let's take a look, as it's now less than a week to go so most people will reasonably have looked at Advances by now (it's not too difficult to be sure of your outward time just a week in Advance).

I've got a little card here I was given by the Train Manager today telling me about the change and how to find out what the off-peak times are. Everyone on the train who had a railcard discounted ticket got one. The 2 RPIs I met also mentioned it to me, there were posters at Piccadilly, Euston, Stafford and elsewhere, so its safe to assume they've gone up at all VT stations.


Outward Trains
Manchester Piccadilly - London Euston

0505 £72.60
0511 £79.85 (XC to Crewe)
0555 £89.10
0610 No Availability
0627 No Availability (overtaken; via Birmingham in 3h07m)
0635 No Availability
0643 No Availability
0700 £89.10
0715 £89.10
0735 £72.60
0755 £72.60
0815 £72.60
0835 £72.60
0855 £72.60
0915 £72.60
0935 No Availability
0955 No Availability
1015 £51.15
1035 £23.75
1055 £23.75
1115 £23.75
1135 £17.15
1155 £17.15

How busy is that 0505? It arrives in London at 0729, taking slightly longer than normal at 2h 24m. What about making it valid for passengers with off-peak tickets for passengers boarding at Crewe and north thereof (it calls at Stafford, Nuneaton, Rugby and Milton Keynes)? But they probably don't want to do that because it calls at all of those places. It may well get very full at Milton Keynes, so what about offering something a little cheaper than £72.60? You think they will? I bet the poor people jammed into the 0935 will wish they would! It's already very full with all seats taken. Do we want people standing on it? Left behind if you're trying to board it at Stoke-on-Trent? It doesn't get you to London until 1143 - if it's on time. I also find it very amusing that they think the 0915, which doesn't arrive until 1124 is worth £72.60 Advance rate - how many business folk are going to want to catch a train at that time? Worse, take a look at what's going on on the 1015. It's usual rate is the lower tiers when it goes on sale, just like the following 2 trains (but unlike the preceding 2, which take the brunt of everyone with an Off-Peak ticket) but has sold out up to the £50 tier! There are going to be so many people with Advances on that combined with Off-Peak holders who have held off in more hopes of a seat and a better prospect of getting some work done at a table. I wonder if they will be satisfied with their choice...

Return Trains
London Euston - Manchester Piccadilly

1400 £23.75
1420 £17.15
1440 £23.75
1500 No Availability
1520 £72.60
1540 £72.60
1600 £72.60
1620 £72.60
1640 £72.60
1700 £72.60
1720 £72.60
1740 £72.60
1800 £72.60
1820 £72.60
1840 £72.60
1900 No Availability
1920 No Availability
1940 £23.75
2000 £23.75

The price on the right is for an Advance, right now, with a railcard. The at-station single price for the trains in black (off-peak tickets valid) is of course £53.20 same as ever. The new single price for the trains in red is £108.55.

I pose the following: how busy will the 1500 be that day? What about the 1900? And perhaps crucially what about the 1940? Are any of the people used to paying the Off-Peak £53 rate going to buy one of those £72.60 Advances? Who can honestly say they would buy an advance at that price for under 200 miles unless they really had no choice? With this in mind, how busy will the 1520 be? How much demand is there to leave London at 1520, even at the ~£20 level of the preceding 3 trains, let alone at £72.60! What about the 1840? Is anyone going to pay £72.60 for that rather than wait 20 minutes for a £53 ticket they don't need to buy in advance and is valid on later trains too?

I know this gets pointed out, but I know a lot of people are used to Great Western or East Coast's Advance Market, and I thought it would be useful to just point out the severity of what we're dealing with here in terms of shoulder-peak loadings.

 

[yorkie]

I pose the following...

The trains on which most 'Off Peak' tickets from London are barred (ie those you've highlighted in red) will be lightly loaded.

However the DfT will be happy as Virgin are maximising revenue by conveying a relatively small number of 'premium' passengers at peak times, each Anytime return holder is paying around 4 times the price of an off peak return holder , and an Advance single ticket holder paying around 3 times the price.

What about the 1900?

According to Virgin Trains, "Travel outside the rush hour and you'll save a bundle. Not to mention getting some extra room to stretch out."

NRE agrees, stating "Off-Peak and Super Off-Peak fares are cheaper tickets for travelling on trains that are less busy."

Rather than dispute these claims directly, I will quote a couple of forum members from previous threads:

The first off peak train on all Virgin services out of Euston after the pm restriction is always packed....

....abysmal overcrowding of the 1900 manchester service.....

Has anyone else experienced the 1900 Euston - Manchester and is able to confirm whether Virgin and NRE are correct or whether the forum members are correct?

 

[bb21]

Passengers from Lancaster northwards or from North Wales Coast stations are not as badly affected as those nearer Euston.
Off-peak restrictions are 3A and VK respectively, which allow arrival in Euston by earlier trains (1005 and 1025).
Liverpool/Manchester/Preston/Chester southwards take restriction 2C (1130).
It's also less restricted northbound, eg only the 1610 is banned to North Wales.
No break of journey though, unlike 2C, so no starting/finishing short.
That's assuming Virgin don't change the time restrictions as well!

Don't be so sure. We already have an example of a TOC changing ticket restrictions virtually across board to screw passengers over (XC 2011), and played the "more good-value Advance fares" card. Look what we ended up with now. For many journeys, if you want to travel at a reasonable hour, you might as well forget about these Advance fares.

I would also not bet against the DfT being the main driver behind all this.

 

[AM9]

I've just put in the NRE journey planner and VT webpage for EUS to MAN depart at 08:00 and return at 18:00 on 9 September. They both show that railcards still allow the off-peak tickets on contra-peak trains whereas without railcards, only anytime and advance tickets are available.
So the return fare from EUS to MAN, out on the 08:00 and RETURN on almost any train will still be £53.85 with a railcard, the same as now. That makes sense as the early morning down trains are hardly full except for a few business travellers in 1st, where the discount doesn't apply.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've just put in the NRE journey planner and VT webpage for EUS to MAN depart at 08:00 and return at 18:00 on 9 September. They both show that railcards still allow the off-peak tickets on contra-peak trains whereas without railcards, only anytime and advance tickets are available.
So the return fare from EUS to MAN, out on the 08:00 and RETURN on almost any train will still be £53.85 with a railcard, the same as now. That makes sense as the early morning down trains are hardly full except for a few business travellers in 1st, where the discount doesn't apply.

No, this is wrong. The reason it still shows is that it is the 2nd September today. The easement still applies for all tickets purchased up to (possibly including, I forget) the 6th.

 

[Smidster]

The trains on which most 'Off Peak' tickets from London are barred (ie those you've highlighted in red) will be lightly loaded.

However the DfT will be happy as Virgin are maximising revenue by conveying a relatively small number of 'premium' passengers at peak times, each Anytime return holder is paying around 4 times the price of an off peak return holder , and an Advance single ticket holder paying around 3 times the price.


According to Virgin Trains, "Travel outside the rush hour and you'll save a bundle. Not to mention getting some extra room to stretch out."

NRE agrees, stating "Off-Peak and Super Off-Peak fares are cheaper tickets for travelling on trains that are less busy."

Rather than dispute these claims directly, I will quote a couple of forum members from previous threads:


Has anyone else experienced the 1900 Euston - Manchester and is able to confirm whether Virgin and NRE are correct or whether the forum members are correct?

I have used the 19:00 in the past and it has been standing room only and that was also midweek apparently even worse on Friday evenings...the dash for seats when the barrier opens is either funny or a H&S concern. Can only imagine how bad it is going to be when you have even more people pushed onto these services - making the experience worse for everyone and for what benefit? do they really think people on Senior railcards are going to spend £150 to make a journey?

 

[Wolfie]

I wonder if all the people who are moaning about the fare rises are the ones who signed the petition in 2012 to reconsider the decision to award the franchise to First group.

Given that Virgin are currently operating the WCML under a direct contract with DfT, a very differnet regime, there is every chance that they did not make this decision.... as a Whitehall insider this has the fingerprints of HMT all over it...

I wonder if it means a lot more people who formerly travelled using the easement on VT but don't (or can't afford to) will start travelling on London Midland from places like Liverpool, Crewe (and stations down the WCML South thereof) and Birmingham to London Euston? I am hoping this will not place too much additional demand on LM services or prompt them to put their prices up.

The LM peak restrictions would doubtless be changed was this to happen....