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Future of Class 91s after introduction of SETs?

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DarloRich

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It is amazing when this country is so much in debt and severely lacking enough trains that we are contemplating scrapping stock with useful life remaining

I have made a slight addition to the above quote to match my views. I remain concerned that we are potentially binning stock with useful life left without any coherent plan for nationwide train replacements.

We should have a clear strategy outlining what we as a nation will buy, how many, when and at what cost.

Whilst I am no fan of the IEP concept (or its costs!) and am fairly certain it will offer less passenger comfort than the replaced trains it does offer us a chance to obtain a widespread base model on which to build our future capacity requirements
 
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Mikey C

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The issue with the coaches may turn out to be corrosion. Don't forget that BR had a lot of them built in Italy.

Hopefully they weren't made of the same steel as the Lancia Betas and Alfasuds of that era...
 

BestWestern

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I have made a slight addition to the above quote to match my views. I remain concerned that we are potentially binning stock with useful life left without any coherent plan for nationwide train replacements.

We should have a clear strategy outlining what we as a nation will buy, how many, when and at what cost.

Whilst I am no fan of the IEP concept (or its costs!) and am fairly certain it will offer less passenger comfort than the replaced trains it does offer us a chance to obtain a widespread base model on which to build our future capacity requirements

A 'widespread base model' would be truly wonderful; alas the industry appears to favour buying as many completely different types of train as possible!
 

Philip Phlopp

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If a class 91 was gutted of all traction equipment how much would it weigh relative to a DVT? Would they be in a good enough state structurally to be converted to DVTs once their life as a loco is over?

(a) we don't do DVTs in the UK anymore, since they waste space - a new build driving trailer standard (or first) coach would be the preferred option.

(b) you get into a world of pain and hurt (or vehicle dynamic calculations) when you start changing weights and centres of gravity. The consultants fees for that will be astronomical.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I have made a slight addition to the above quote to match my views. I remain concerned that we are potentially binning stock with useful life left without any coherent plan for nationwide train replacements.

We should have a clear strategy outlining what we as a nation will buy, how many, when and at what cost.

Whilst I am no fan of the IEP concept (or its costs!) and am fairly certain it will offer less passenger comfort than the replaced trains it does offer us a chance to obtain a widespread base model on which to build our future capacity requirements

The coaches are unlikely to be scrapped unless they're not safe or economical to continue in service. That's unlikely but possible. If they can be used, a use will be found for them. The only thing likely to be scrapped is the Class 91 locomotive, and possibly the Mark 4 Driving Van Trailer, which would be replaced by a passenger carrying driving vehicle (or a new build power car of some description).
 

Bletchleyite

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(a) we don't do DVTs in the UK anymore, since they waste space - a new build driving trailer standard (or first) coach would be the preferred option.

Brake vehicles of any kind seem to be a UK thing (in Europe) - UIC coaches seem to be designed to stand alone, with a screw-down brake in one vestibule of every vehicle, and the guard just wandering around or taking a spare seat/compartment.
 

SpacePhoenix

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Which is the best/most appropriate one if one were ever to be preserved as an example of the class?
 

sprinterguy

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Which is the best/most appropriate one if one were ever to be preserved as an example of the class?
91031/91131 is earmarked a place in the national collection as the record holder for a UK domestic passenger carrying train (154mph in 1995) and as the last high-speed locomotive built for British Rail (also the last locomotive built at Crewe).

91111 has also been allocated a place based largely on its' current commemorative livery, but 91110 would arguably be a more worthy contender, holding as it does the UK domestic locomotive speed record of 162mph (attained in 1989 on a test working).
 
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43074

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In terms of the future of the 91s, I think Rotherham seems most likely, because there aren't actually many places they would be suitable working: the MML has frequent stops meaning they would offer little or no improvement time-wise on the existing '222s', the GEML seems unlikely as they want new trains, and realistically there aren't many other places which require a high speed electric loco which is slow off the mark.

Which is the best/most appropriate one if one were ever to be preserved as an example of the class?

The ones which stand out for me:
91110 - holds the UK speed record for an electric loco on a conventional line (162.2mph in September 1989, although APT-P did 162.7mph somewhere)
91131 - the last locomotive built at Crewe works and the last high speed electric loco built for BR.

I'm sure I read somewhere that '11's livery would be preserved as well, but I can't find a source for that.
 

D365

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http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=113712I'm sure I read somewhere that '11's livery would be preserved as well, but I can't find a source for that.

Here you go! We'd had quite an extensive discussion about it earlier in the year.
 

Mikey C

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As they're 25 years old, aren't they at the age when most previous electric locos were tending to be replaced from mainline passenger service anyway?
 

ash39

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In terms of the future of the 91s, I think Rotherham seems most likely

Can't see it myself, there's no wires at Rotherham and I think platform lengths may be a problem :lol:

Mind you that's still not as ridiculous as whoever suggested trying to convert them to DVT's when there's a load of mk3 DVT's in store and the mk4s becoming free at the same time as the 91's...
 

al.currie93

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That's a fair point. However I wonder whether you would lose some flexibility compared to an entire fleet of five car EMU's that can be doubled up during periods of high demand.

How fast can a class 88 go? Assuming that it can operate at 125 mph I would be interested to know how its acceleration would compare to an 125 mph EMU with distributed traction.

The 88 was more of an example as it's only rated to 100mph and, of course, there is now plenty of 110mph+ on the MML so I can't see it being deployed on the MML.

It would be very interesting to see how a modern 125mph compared with a modern 125mph EMU. I suspect that the EMU would win!

I can't say much for a modern electric locomotive hauled train against a multiple unit equivalent, but I can provide a bit more insight :)

Traction being centralised (locomotive) or distributed affects the acceleration of a train by affecting both how much the driving wheels of the train can adhere to the rails (adhesion).In short, the more distributed the traction is, the more of the train's weight is over powered axles and the more adhesion the train has, hence the more force can be applied before wheel-slip.

While top speed and gearing of the train do also affect acceleration, they can actually be ignored when analysing the effects of acceleration to due traction distribution. There's actually a fairly simple calculation that can be done to work this out.

I'd need more information on the 88 to be able to fully analyse is, but I have previously analysed an Intercity 225 (class 91, nine mk4s and a DVT) and a 9 car Pendolino. Assuming zero gradient, mediocre rail conditions (coefficient of friction of 0.35 for anyone who's interested in that) and zero air resistance.

- An Intercity 225 has sufficient adhesion to accelerate to 50mph in 39.472 seconds.

- A Pendolino has sufficient adhesion to accelerate to 50mph in 19.528 seconds.

If anyone's interested I can message you the calculations, but generally the effect of distributed traction is roughly double the potential maximum adhesion-based acceleration limit. However, I don't believe either train ever accelerates to 50mph in anything less than 40 seconds (do correct me if I'm wrong!), so the reasons why an Intercity 225 cannot achieve this rate of acceleration would be down to reasons other than it being a locomotive hauled train. What's also interesting is that the Pendolino can never achieve its figure of 19.528 seconds, as the total power output of its motors limits its minimum time to 50mph to 22.82 seconds.

In fact, if any drivers on this forum would be happy to tell roughly how long you take to accelerate your train to 50mph then I'd be very interested to hear! :)
 
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If a class 91 was gutted of all traction equipment how much would it weigh relative to a DVT? Would they be in a good enough state structurally to be converted to DVTs once their life as a loco is over?

In todays day and age it would probably be cheaper to buy new DVTs that mess around ripping the guts out of a class 91
 

Peter Mugridge

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In todays day and age it would probably be cheaper to buy new DVTs that mess around ripping the guts out of a class 91

I love the autocorrect - I have an image in my mind now of zombie DVTs attacking the class 91 fleet; trying to think of a title for the film for it! :lol:
 

Nick82

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Apologies in advance as this may not be pertinent for this post, I saw the discussion about class 91s so I thought id ask a question.

I was in Darlington today and I saw a 91 set departing for Kings Cross from Edinburgh. Something I have never seen before is two 91s together pushing it south bound. Does anyone know the reasons behind this and if it will be returning up north as the set originated from Edinburgh.
 

najaB

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I was in Darlington today and I saw a 91 set departing for Kings Cross from Edinburgh. Something I have never seen before is two 91s together pushing it south bound. Does anyone know the reasons behind this and if it will be returning up north as the set originated from Edinburgh.
Were they both at the same end, and were both pantographs raised?
 

Nick82

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Were they both at the same end, and were both pantographs raised?

Not sure about the pantographs, but the 91 attached to the coaches did not seem to be using power. They were attached at the rear, pushing towards the south.

91,91,C,C,C,C,C,C,C,C,C,DVT (DVT facing south)
 

TheEscapist_

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Just a 91 move i think, saves running an extra train from Craigentinny to Bounds Green. Detaches a Kings Cross and goes to Bounds Green light loco.... I think anyway.
 

61653 HTAFC

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Not sure about the pantographs, but the 91 attached to the coaches did not seem to be using power. They were attached at the rear, pushing towards the south.

91,91,C,C,C,C,C,C,C,C,C,DVT (DVT facing south)

Guess would be that the southernmost 91 had broken down and the other was the rescue loco. Only ever seen it before with the rescue loco attached (blunt end first) at the south end.

Edit: or a loco move as stated above.
 
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sprinterguy

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It is probable that it's either a handy way of returning a "spare" loco to Bounds Green depot without requiring an extra driver and path for a light engine move, or one of the locos has developed a traction fault and requires assistance (less likely, I would have thought, as there's less chance of a spare class 91 being available at the northern end of the route).

Either way, it is likely that one of the locos will be removed and go to Bounds Green upon arrival in London.

I've seen a couple of such moves in the opposite direction heading north "double headed" in the past.
 
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Nick82

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Shame as I would like to of caught a picture of it on its return up North, Thanks again
 

najaB

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Not sure about the pantographs, but the 91 attached to the coaches did not seem to be using power. They were attached at the rear, pushing towards the south.

91,91,C,C,C,C,C,C,C,C,C,DVT (DVT facing south)
Sounds like it was a loco move - either due to a failure or for scheduled maintenance. Thanks.
 

EC123

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Was a loco move to Bounds Green via KGX. 91129 was attached to set BN03, with 91116 attached to the end of the set behind 129. 116 was detached at KGX before running to Bounds Green.
 

jopsuk

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well one wouldn't expect any loco to be pushing a train, beyond depot shunting, without a cab on the other end?

On the compatibility:
Mark 4s have been run with Class 89 and 90. Presumably they could also therefore work with 86 and 87? And the 91s should be able to work with Mark 3 DVTs and (if in GEML configuration) Mark 2 DBSOs?
 

najaB

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well one wouldn't expect any loco to be pushing a train, beyond depot shunting, without a cab on the other end?
I know, it was just an attempt to point out a potential problem with using them sans-DVT.
 
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