EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[DynamicSpirit]

Leave ABBA alone. Knowing me knowing you is a decent song!

They also wrote a song that could become very suitable for anyone who comes to regret Brexit....

They passed me by, all of those great romances
You were, I felt, robbing me of my rightful chances
My picture clear, everything seemed so easy
And so I dealt you the blow
One of us had to go
Now it's different, I want you to know

One of us is crying
One of us is lying
In her lonely bed
Staring at the ceiling
Wishing she was somewhere else instead

 

[radamfi]

Drive around this country and you'll find thousands upon thousands of square feet of mothballed greenhouses, the only question to be asked is how the Netherlands can produce and then export them at a lower price than the UK can grow them

The Dutch are the world experts in horticulture so Dutch produce is in great demand throughout Europe.

 

[ExRes]

Where I grew up, all the nurseries were closed and sold off for housing. I am sure that's part of the reason - it's not worth growing flowers when the land could be better used.

Why some greenhouses remain empty may be down to issues in getting planning, and even when planning is granted, the problem with developers not in any rush to build so as to keep demand high and prices rising.

Of course if we left the EU and brought up the drawbridge, I'm sure we'd go back to making and growing our own things, right?!

Do you think that making and growing our own things is wrong then?, perhaps we should have tried it already

 

[richw]

Drive around this country and you'll find thousands upon thousands of square feet of mothballed greenhouses, the only question to be asked is how the Netherlands can produce and then export them at a lower price than the UK can grow them

Because for some unknown reason Brits won't pick them, or take jobs flower picking.
I know a local flower grower, and he couldn't get local staff for love or money. He ended up recruiting from Lithuania. So as well as a wage, he had the cost of bringing the pickers to the uk, accommodating them (luxury static caravans, I helped him setting up these, and would be quite happy living in one of them myself).
My friend is paying the Lithuanians slightly over minimum wage, and giving them free all bills covered accommodation. 2 workers per 2 bedroom caravan, 3 workers to a 3 bed caravan.
He says all this makes his pricing uncompetitive if he was to make a minimum profit margin,

 

[phoenixcronin]

The Dutch are the world experts in horticulture so Dutch produce is in great demand throughout Europe.

I think we're getting sick and tired of those pesky "experts"

 

[radamfi]

I quote from the BBC website, "De Telegraaf's front page suggests that the EU fears the Netherlands will be the next to seek an exit referendum. A poll it carried out shows most voters fearing exit would be "bad for our wallets" and reduce the country's role on the world stage, but their lead over "Nexit" supporters is narrow"

That's the BBC quoting from a newspaper, precisely what the Dutch are complaining about on Twitter. That's like Dutch TV quoting the Daily Mail. How about looking at a more reputable source like NOS?

 

[ExRes]

That's the BBC quoting from a newspaper, precisely what the Dutch are complaining about on Twitter. That's like Dutch TV quoting the Daily Mail. How about looking at a more reputable source like NOS?

Are you comparing De Telegraaf with the Daily Mail and/or accusing the BBC of making up false Dutch newspaper headlines?

 

[jon0844]

Do you think that making and growing our own things is wrong then?, perhaps we should have tried it already

No, but we obviously decided to import a lot of things we could make, but choose not to. Perhaps because we think doing something else is more profitable. Maybe it's time to reconsider.

Although there's a common misconception that we don't make anything here anymore, the truth is we don't make a lot of things we perhaps could. People more likely want to work in the service industry, rather than manufacturing.

I was at a conference on Friday, talking about the future of work and it was fascinating to hear how so many jobs will disappear, like the obvious ones which can be replaced by a robot, to the less obvious ones - like lawyers and judges.

The same tech that will make it possible one day to have lorries and vans drive themselves, and machines to load/unlock, and machines to pick goods (e.g. Amazon) will also lead to it being possible for AI machines to determine law. In fact, given the huge cost of the legal profession (pay and training etc), it may well be one of the professions to get hit sooner than some others.

It was considered that some professions that may remain safe are creative roles (computers not yet really being able to replace this) and things like dentistry, again where a machine can't yet work alone.

Suffice to say, in 10 or 20 years, there's going to be a politician telling us all that robots are stealing our jobs, and there will be an uprising against the machines.

Let's hope they're not built by a company called Skynet...!

 

[ExRes]

No, but we obviously decided to import a lot of things we could make, but choose not to. Perhaps because we think doing something else is more profitable.

Although there's a common misconception that we don't make anything here anymore, the truth is we don't make a lot of things we perhaps could. People more likely want to work in the service industry, rather than manufacturing.

I was at a conference on Friday, talking about the future of work and it was fascinating to hear how so many jobs will disappear, like the obvious ones which can be replaced by a robot, to the less obvious ones - like lawyers and judges.

The same tech that will make it possible one day to have lorries and vans drive themselves, and machines to load/unlock, and machines to pick goods (e.g. Amazon) will also lead to it being possible for AI machines to determine law. In fact, given the huge cost of the legal profession (pay and training etc), it may well be one of the professions to get hit sooner than some others.

It was considered that some professions that may remain safe are creative roles (computers not yet really being able to replace this) and things like dentistry, again where a machine can't yet work alone.

Suffice to say, in 10 or 20 years, there's going to be a politician telling us all that robots are stealing our jobs, and there will be an uprising against the machines.

Let's hope they're not built by a company called Skynet...!

I'm interested to read your comments as robots replacing humans is something I've been aware of since 1987 when I bought my first new car and was shown a film of their production facility. I have mentioned it on here in the past and was, basically, called stupid by my 'betters'

 

[radamfi]

Are you comparing De Telegraaf with the Daily Mail and/or accusing the BBC of making up false Dutch newspaper headlines?

The Daily Mail is of course an extreme case but newspapers in general are not the best source of reputable news compared to broadcast organisations. The NOS regularly quotes the BBC so why don't the BBC quote NOS?

The Dutch government is clearly pro-EU so is highly unlikely to be offering a referendum. Maybe a future election could bring back the PVV into government, and there would be more of a risk then. Regardless, I can't see the Dutch pulling out given that they are a founding member of the EEC and presumably don't want tariffs or loss of freedom of movement between themselves and their neighbours Belgium, Luxembourg or Germany.

 

[jon0844]

Well, I am not convinced that autonomous vehicles are around the corner, and I also believe that lorries carrying freight will likely need dedicated lanes/roads to work effectively, and safely, but I do accept that technology already makes it possible for a car to drive itself - just not at a speed that would be very practical, nor able to cope with situations that a human could. Swings and roundabouts, as the car would play safe and less likely crash - but may then get 'stuck'.

I do accept it will happen at some point. And machines to do picking in warehouses is already a work in progress for a lot of firms.. it makes sense that everything from warehouse to home could replace humans (or maybe warehouse to a locker/collection point).

It's very scary as so many jobs will be redundant, but there's the thinking that a Government might one day just pay everyone a fixed sum that's liveable - so you'd effectively be paid NOT to work. We would then spend that money to keep the economy going, and have machines doing all our work for us.

It does sound quite a strange concept, almost like it's out of the film Wall-E, but it's not something that anyone could say is stupid.

It's more a case of how we allow this progress to happen, and if we opt to put in safeguards to protect jobs or just accept their demise like so many other jobs before it.

 

[radamfi]

Why does any country import anything? Why do the British import German cars even though they are quite expensive? Why do computer manufacturers around the world use British-designed ARM microprocessors? Sometimes the foreigners simply have the best stuff.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It's very scary as so many jobs will be redundant, but there's the thinking that a Government might one day just pay everyone a fixed sum that's liveable - so you'd effectively be paid NOT to work. We would then spend that money to keep the economy going, and have machines doing all our work for us.

It does sound quite a strange concept, almost like it's out of the film Wall-E, but it's not something that anyone could say is stupid.

I've thought about this before and it doesn't worry me. In this scenario, the cost of products and services would decline to almost zero because there are so few humans that need to be paid, so people wouldn't actually need much money to survive.

 

[yorksrob]

I was at a conference on Friday, talking about the future of work and it was fascinating to hear how so many jobs will disappear, like the obvious ones which can be replaced by a robot, to the less obvious ones - like lawyers and judges.

The same tech that will make it possible one day to have lorries and vans drive themselves, and machines to load/unlock, and machines to pick goods (e.g. Amazon) will also lead to it being possible for AI machines to determine law. In fact, given the huge cost of the legal profession (pay and training etc), it may well be one of the professions to get hit sooner than some others.

I always wonder whether the people who develop these things realise how much of the enemy they will be.

If lawyers and judges disappear, what use for human beings.

Do they relish becoming the despair of mankind ?

 

[TheKnightWho]

I always wonder whether the people who develop these things realise how much of the enemy they will be.

If lawyers and judges disappear, what use for human beings.

Do they relish becoming the despair of mankind ?

Throughout history, as jobs have been replaced new ones have come into existence.

 

[yorksrob]

Throughout history, as jobs have been replaced new ones have come into existence.

When we have machines doing the work of judges, what exactly will be left for the rest of us?

The people developing this stuff will be cursed by humanity, you mark my words.

 

[jon0844]

People who go on about the '1%' now haven't got a clue what COULD happen if we allow it. Technology will allow it to happen, but we'd have to still go ahead and MAKE it happen.

I expect a few powerful people would assume they'd still have a roll to play running the companies with a robotic/automated workforce, while we'd just sit at home getting paid to consume more content and goods.

It really bloody is Wall-E isn't it!!

 

[TheKnightWho]

When we have machines doing the work of judges, what exactly will be left for the rest of us?

The people developing this stuff will be cursed by humanity, you mark my words.

People have been saying that for hundreds of years.

 

[yorksrob]

People have been saying that for hundreds of years.

And it will continue, morefold.

 

[DelayRepay]

When we have machines doing the work of judges, what exactly will be left for the rest of us?

We'll have more time for referendums...

 

[Gutfright]

Maybe I'm in a minority here, but I like the idea of machines doing all the work while humans are just chillin' out maxin' relaxin' all cool.

 

[Darren R]

Joining the European Economic Area is not without its problems. Doing so would give the UK unrestricted access to the Single Market, but free movement of goods and people is a non-negotiable precondition of membership. Additionally, we would still have to apply the EU rules that govern the Single Market, without having had any input when those rules were being drawn up.

As part of the EU, we are currently part of a customs union, so there aren't different reporting obligations on UK companies in terms of tracking what the VAT rate is in different member states - there is a common external tariff and importing/exporting is relatively simple. Within the EEA it's a completely different VAT regime, and the burden of the extra paperwork will be quite large for small and medium sized business.

Those SMEs were already very nervous in the run-up to the referendum. The latest figures show that they are collectively sitting on £164 billion in current and deposit accounts rather than spending on investment - a seven per cent increase on last year.

It has been argued that a temporary increase in unemployment would be a price worth paying in the short term for longer term gain. However, any increase in unemployment is a considerable 'double whammy' to the nation's finances. In the last Financial Year, 54% of the total HMRC tax receipts came from personal taxation; Income Tax, Capital Gains Tax, National Insurance Contributions and Bank Payroll Tax. A further 22% of total tax receipts came from VAT. Unemployment not only considerably reduces the amounts collected from those two sources, but also increases government expenditure. There will be an emergency budget soon, despite the Brexiteers saying that there wouldn't be. An increase in taxes - direct and/or indirect - is a very real possibility. (Brexiteers need not respond to this latter point - I have already predicted what those responses will be!) The next change in interest rates from the Bank of England is likely to be downwards - it is charged with economic stability and keeping inflationary pressures low. A week Stirling will result in more expensive imports; it won't be long before these are being reflected on the High Street and the garage forecourts.

The UK would only have control of immigration if it did not become part of the EEA and instead negotiated free-trade agreements or relied on its membership of the World Trade Organization. The latter is not without considerable risks, and the former will take a long time, despite the best promises of Nigel and the Brexiteers. (The worst boy-band ever? ) When President Obama said that the UK would be "at the back of the queue" on negotiating such deals, it was dismissed as "scaremongering" by the Vote Leave camp. Bilateral trade with the United Kingdom acounts for just 0.7% of U.S. G.D.P. (Yes, that does say 0.7% - it's not a typo.) UK exports to the USA last year were around $51 billion. The US isn't going to lose any sleep about losing 0.7% of its GDP, but if the UK loses $51 billion in exports that's gonna hurt.

 

[yorksrob]

We'll have more time for referendums...

Well, maybe that's a silver lining

 

[Howardh]

That's the big problem, there is nothing to tell "like it is". The electorate have voted to leave the EU, but not indicated what they want instead. They've voted against something they don't want, but not what they do want.
.

They voted to leave the EU, but there was nothing on the ballot paper which suggested we couldn't go back in the day after we left....we've done what you wanted

On the ballot paper the question was "Should the United...blah blah." A bit woolly at best, a bit like two blokes "should we go to the match?" "Yeah, alright".
Set in stone?
"Oh, it's raining, let's not bother".

Anyhow, yes, there's nothing to stop the UK joining the next-best-thing, and no referendum required. A win for Brexit, and a win for Leave. Everyone happy??

 

[Harbornite]

When we have machines doing the work of judges, what exactly will be left for the rest of us?

The people developing this stuff will be cursed by humanity, you mark my words.

Maintenance of AI? Someone has to look after th bloody things.

 

[Domh245]

Everyone happy??

I'd suggest the opposite! Leave won't be happy because they'll still be tied down to all of the EU regulations, payment, and freedom of movement. Remain won't be happy because we'd have to pay more, and would loose the ability to have any input into the rules.

 

[TheKnightWho]

They voted to leave the EU, but there was nothing on the ballot paper which suggested we couldn't go back in the day after we left....we've done what you wanted

On the ballot paper the question was "Should the United...blah blah." A bit woolly at best, a bit like two blokes "should we go to the match?" "Yeah, alright".
Set in stone?
"Oh, it's raining, let's not bother".

Anyhow, yes, there's nothing to stop the UK joining the next-best-thing, and no referendum required. A win for Brexit, and a win for Leave. Everyone happy??

Not really. The problem is that a majority may oppose the EU, but there's no way a majority support any of the actual alternative choices.

It's the equivalent of having an election, and saying "Should we pick this person or not?" instead of "Who should we pick out of this list of people?"

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Maybe I'm in a minority here, but I like the idea of machines doing all the work while humans are just chillin' out maxin' relaxin' all cool.

With no money coming in from paid employment, do we all revert to a hunter-gatherer existence in order to live as the last time this occurred in Britain, your apt word of "chillin" certainly had a loud ring of truth in it in the days when the last ice sheets in Britain were slowly receding northwards.

 

[TheKnightWho]

With no money coming in from paid employment, do we all revert to a hunter-gatherer existence in order to live as the last time this occurred in Britain, your apt word of "chillin" certainly had a loud ring of truth in it in the days when the last ice sheets in Britain were slowly receding northwards.

Very droll.

 

[Howardh]

Not really. The problem is that a majority may oppose the EU, but there's no way a majority support any of the actual alternative choices.

It's the equivalent of having an election, and saying "Should we pick this person or not?" instead of "Who should we pick out of this list of people?"

All we're doing then is just going round in bloody circles. Do Brexit simply want us to be out of EVERYTHING apart from that WTO? Maybe we should have a re-run with an actual list so at least there's something to work on.

It's farcical. Remember that analogy about a nightclub? Well, we've left it and are stood outside, not knowing whether to go to another, go home, find a room for a night or bang on the door an plead to go back in.

It's absolutely appalling.

 

[bb21]

It's farcical. Remember that analogy about a nightclub? Well, we've left it and are stood outside, not knowing whether to go to another, go home, find a room for a night or bang on the door an plead to go back in.

None of the above.

Find a brunette and take her home.