Keolis Amey Wales - Future Rolling Stock

[krus_aragon]

Interesting, as 153s are glacially slow and I'm not sure the doors are any quicker than 158s. 175 doors are definitely faster than both.

Incidentally, with the new 2tph service being 1tph fast, 1tph slow, individual units will presumably run fast in one direction and slow in the other (or they'd catch up with one another). With that kind of timetable, increased dwell times for 158s might be doable (except of course there aren't any spare 158s today).

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

If they left 10 mins later they would miss the connection into the service from Holyhead at Llandudno Junction.

Makes sense actually Cheers

 

[krus_aragon]

If they left 10 mins later they would miss the connection into the service from Holyhead at Llandudno Junction.

Yes, the dwell in both (N/S) directions is to maintain connections to and from the coast in both directions (E/W).

 

[JetStream]

http://vivarail.co.uk/vivarail-announce-new-order-for-wales-and-borders/

"Colin Lea, Mobilisation Director, KeolisAmeyWales Cymru, said: “We are proud to announce that KeolisAmey and Vivarail will provide a step-change in passenger comfort and service quality on three North Wales routes (Wrexham-Bidston, Conwy Valley, Chester-Crewe) by introducing these units, fitted with the latest passenger comfort appliances such as power supply at all seats, high-speed Wi-Fi, air-cooling, bike spaces, and a brand new seating layout reflecting the needs of the passengers on these routes."

 

[Bletchleyite]

I was just going to post that.

So how can it be 5 units, then? They'll need 4 for Wrexham-Bidston alone. The present running time appear to be 61 minutes, so if one ran semifast you would be able to do 2tph with 4 units easily, but not reduce to 3 units to allow two to be used elsewhere. (And what would they do if there was a failure - use a CAF unit?)

I do think they would fit well on the Conwy Valley - particularly that seating layout with the massive windows aligned to the low-backed table seats - but I'm confused as to how. It seems far-fetched that the battery hybrid system would shave as much as 15 minutes off an end to end journey even if it does improve acceleration. Unless they're talking a service pattern involving a 2-hourly stopper on the Borderlands - but that would be a big cut.

 

[craigybagel]

Specifically, they were rejected on account of slow door-opening times and inability to keep to the current timetable.

And that was before they had ERTMS fitted, which adds another 2 minutes to turn around times. Given how tight the current timetable is on that line, there's not a hope they'd keep up.

http://vivarail.co.uk/vivarail-announce-new-order-for-wales-and-borders/

"Colin Lea, Mobilisation Director, KeolisAmeyWales Cymru, said: “We are proud to announce that KeolisAmey and Vivarail will provide a step-change in passenger comfort and service quality on three North Wales routes (Wrexham-Bidston, Conwy Valley, Chester-Crewe) by introducing these units, fitted with the latest passenger comfort appliances such as power supply at all seats, high-speed Wi-Fi, air-cooling, bike spaces, and a brand new seating layout reflecting the needs of the passengers on these routes."

230s on Crewe - Chester?! With the exception of one curve at Beeston Castle (65 or 75 depending on direction) its a 20 minute 90MPH dash - it's hard to think of a regional route that would be more inappropriate for them!

 

[Bletchleyite]

230s on Crewe - Chester?! With the exception of one curve at Beeston Castle (65 or 75 depending on direction) its a 20 minute 90MPH dash - it's hard to think of a regional route that would be more inappropriate for them!

It's not a 90mph anything if it's a 150 operating it as it mostly is at present.

 

[JetStream]

It's not a 90mph anything if it's a 150 operating it as it mostly is at present.

They'd be more useful on the Crewe-Shrewsbury local service.

 

[northwichcat]

It's not a 90mph anything if it's a 150 operating it as it mostly is at present.

It's a 150 doing 23 minutes pretty much flat out all the way. It did used to be a 158 or 175.

 

[louis97]

I was just going to post that.

So how can it be 5 units, then? They'll need 4 for Wrexham-Bidston alone. The present running time appear to be 61 minutes, so if one ran semifast you would be able to do 2tph with 4 units easily, but not reduce to 3 units to allow two to be used elsewhere. (And what would they do if there was a failure - use a CAF unit?)

I do think they would fit well on the Conwy Valley - particularly that seating layout with the massive windows aligned to the low-backed table seats - but I'm confused as to how. It seems far-fetched that the battery hybrid system would shave as much as 15 minutes off an end to end journey even if it does improve acceleration. Unless they're talking a service pattern involving a 2-hourly stopper on the Borderlands - but that would be a big cut.

Conwy Valley and Chester-Crewe will both become the new CAF rolling stock once they are introduced. Borderlands won't become 2tph until the 230s have been released from these routes.

 

[mallard]

It's a 150 doing 23 minutes pretty much flat out all the way. It did used to be a 158 or 175.

While I can remember a 158 turning up in the past, I also remember single 153s not being uncommon. Since the 4-car 150s are well-loaded these days, you can imagine what it was like on a 153 (and a 158 wasn't much better). If the 230s can provide extra capacity, such as by running in 6-car formations with more spacious interiors, then that's an improvement, but I agree that the number of vehicles ordered doesn't work for that...

 

[daikilo]

Looking again at the Keolis-Amey graphic, it could well show more than 5 sets and certainly shows them staying indefinitely. For me it only leaves Crewe-Shrewsbury stoppers to resolve.

 

[sw1ller]

Looking again at the Keolis-Amey graphic, it could well show more than 5 sets and certainly shows them staying indefinitely. For me it only leaves Crewe-Shrewsbury stoppers to resolve.

Crewe Shrewsbury stoppers are, Ive heard on good authority, will be transferred to WMT. I hope it’s true.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Looking again at the Keolis-Amey graphic, it could well show more than 5 sets and certainly shows them staying indefinitely. For me it only leaves Crewe-Shrewsbury stoppers to resolve.

There due q3 Dec19 but the Bidston doubling frequency is Dec 21 so there only on Conwy valley and Crewe to Chester shuttle temporary to allow the 150's to go south for Pacer replacement.

 

[JetStream]

Crewe Shrewsbury stoppers are, Ive heard on good authority, will be transferred to WMT. I hope it’s true.

The KeolisAmey route map released has the stopper on it. That might just be short-term, admittedly.

 

[gazr]

Article here with mock ups and livery(?): https://www.walesonline.co.uk/business/business-news/old-london-underground-trains-taking-14757739

 

[Bletchleyite]

I reckon wood effect flooring would add nicely to that, it's a bit bland otherwise.

 

[the sniper]

Crewe Shrewsbury stoppers are, Ive heard on good authority, will be transferred to WMT. I hope it’s true.

I've no idea if it's happening or if it's too late for that to happen now, but it seems like a ridiculous state of affairs to have the Crewe - Shrewsbury stopper overseen (inevitably as poor relation) by the WAG in Cardiff, particularly now you've got Shropshire Council directly involved as a full Partner Authority in West Midlands Rail. If as it seems it isn't an absolute operational necessity to keep it integrated into the Welsh franchise, why would you? In this age of local devolution and accountability, this seem like an abysmal solution, as surely that service is now less accountable to local English users/tax payers than it EVER has been.

 

[craigybagel]

It might not be an operational necessity but giving it to WMT is operationally a hell of lot more difficult then leaving it with W&B, for reasons I've mentioned several times. And I see no reason why WMT would provide a better service then what W&B will.

I will however accept that if you were to do it then the next couple of years when both TOCS will be recruiting staff and reorganising their diagrams is a good time to do it - although it does leave you with the problem that unless WMT have been very secretive, they haven't got any stock for the service either.....

 

[superalbs]

This article states they are going to be used on Borderlands, Conwy Valley, and Chester to Crewe.

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...view/vivarail-d-trains-for-wales-borders.html

The Class 230 D-Trains are intended for use on the Wrexham – Bidston, Conwy Valley and Chester – Crewe routes.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

This article states they are going to be used on Borderlands, Conwy Valley, and Chester to Crewe.
http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...view/vivarail-d-trains-for-wales-borders.html

It's still not obvious (to me) what is going to operate the Chester-Liverpool service in December.
They have to find a couple of units from somewhere for that.

I don't think the Crewe-Shrewsbury service will transfer to WMT, at least not in the short term.
The time for deciding that as part of the new WMT and W&B franchises has now gone.
It's also no different from the Chester-Crewe shuttle (and sometimes interworks with it).

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

Crumbs that must be a task to keep to the timetable unless the '175' services are timed for 75mph if short of stock! Mind you on the GWR North Cotswold line, most services are timed for 90mph Turbo trains I think - if a 125mph train has to be substituted for a 90mph.

On the 23/10/18 after my first IET trip, someone at Didcot Parkway told me basically that a Pacer was used from Swansea to Manchester (must have been a little while before the 23/10/18) - my response was 'a Pacer ?!' Mind you the seats are all high-backed now and I'd catch it instead of waiting another hour anyway.

Plus, for a Pacer to run instead of a 175 must mean a more dire situation (worse than desperate I mean) at ATW.

The improvements on wiki (for the new Wales & Borders franchise) look promising and will mean way better trains for passengers thank goodness!

 

[gareth950]

Crumbs that must be a task to keep to the timetable unless the '175' services are timed for 75mph if short of stock! Mind you on the GWR North Cotswold line, most services are timed for 90mph Turbo trains I think - if a 125mph train has to be substituted for a 90mph.

On the 23/10/18 after my first IET trip, someone at Didcot Parkway told me basically that a Pacer was used from Swansea to Manchester (must have been a little while before the 23/10/18) - my response was 'a Pacer ?!' Mind you the seats are all high-backed now and I'd catch it instead of waiting another hour anyway.

Plus, for a Pacer to run instead of a 175 must mean a more dire situation (worse than desperate I mean) at ATW.

The improvements on wiki (for the new Wales & Borders franchise) look promising and will mean way better trains for passengers thank goodness!

I'd wait another hour rather than go on an 4 hour endurance test to Manchester.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Could someone give me a rough idea if there are great scenic bits between Crewe and Hereford?

Some of the finest and most underappreciated rural scenery on a rail route in the UK, particularly south of Shrewsbury.
The fine hilly scenery continues south of Hereford until Pontypool Road.
The best bits, I suppose, are around Church Stretton and Llanvihangel, but it's delectable scenery the whole way.
Look out for Stokesay Castle just south of Craven Arms, Ludlow Church, Hereford Cathedral (best seen on the big loop south of the city).
Also some very characterful signal boxes en route, some dating back to the Joint Line era in the 1860s and with plenty of semaphores.
Not to mention the giant LNWR signal box at Shrewsbury (Severn Bridge Jn), where the line runs close to Shrewsbury Abbey.
Then there's the rivers: Severn, Teme, Lugg, Wye, Monnow, Usk (twice, and a third time entering Newport).
Just one long tunnel, at Dinmore south of Leominster (1054 yards).
And still mostly a 90mph main line.

 

[Mikey C]

This article states they are going to be used on Borderlands, Conwy Valley, and Chester to Crewe.

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...view/vivarail-d-trains-for-wales-borders.html

By emphasising just these reused old trains in the article, cue the moaning comments about Wales getting palmed off with old trains etc

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

On the 23/10/18 after my first IET trip, someone at Didcot Parkway told me basically that a Pacer was used from Swansea to Manchester (must have been a little while before the 23/10/18) - my response was 'a Pacer ?!' Mind you the seats are all high-backed now and I'd catch it instead of waiting another hour anyway.

Not wholly true.
Pacers did work from Holyhead to Manchester under BR, and are still hard at work around Cardiff for another 18 months or so.
However they don't work long distance services, the worst you can get, on a fairly bad day, is a 150 sprinter.
Normally it's a mix of 175 and 158 aircon units Cardiff-Manchester, with a trolley service, much the same as you would get on Cardiff-Portsmouth or Norwich-Liverpool.

I think your date is a year out, by the way...

 

[northwichcat]

By emphasising just these reused old trains in the article, cue the moaning comments about Wales getting palmed off with old trains etc

Given Chester-Crewe is 100% in England and Bidston to Wrexham is a route between Merseyside and North Wales, you could just as easily argue the Wales & Borders franchise are dumping the old trains on the English local routes, while promising South Wales passengers brand new trains.

 

[northwichcat]

It's still not obvious (to me) what is going to operate the Chester-Liverpool service in December.
They have to find a couple of units from somewhere for that..

It's going to have to relate to the 769s or some loaned units. If Scotrail still release 10 x 156s this year and Northern are still due to only take on 5 of them, maybe a short term lease for the 156s and then arrange a swap with Northern so that 4 x 150/2s can be used on Liverpool to Chester until mid-2019 and Northern have 156s to cover for the loss of 150/2s?

 

[northwichcat]

However they don't work long distance services, the worst you can get, on a fairly bad day, is a 150 sprinter.
Normally it's a mix of 175 and 158 aircon units Cardiff-Manchester, with a trolley service, much the same as you would get on Cardiff-Portsmouth or Norwich-Liverpool.

Although the worse you get on Liverpool to Norwich would be a 156 or a 153 attached to something else. I think currently 158+153 is used on some services to cover 158s away for PRM works. I've also seen 156s filling in for 158s before.

 

[D365]

By emphasising just these reused old trains in the article, cue the moaning comments about Wales getting palmed off with old trains etc

Will the press be making those same comments when (if) the 769s come into service then?