Class 365s to Scotrail

[mde]

I’m amazed they are brining these old trains into service. Not impressed with them at all.

Echoing others, what were you expecting? There's still issues getting the 385s into service and the leases are up on some of the diesel units. ScotRail don't have enough spare units elsewhere to cover, so, it'd either be a service cut somewhere else to free units for Edinburgh & Glasgow route, a reduction in E&G service (unlikely), or, hire in of alternate units. The 365s were readily available - why wouldn't they use them?

 

[mde]

forgive my ignorance, but as 365s were originally Thameslink trains and were built for dual voltage operation may I ask what the need for trains that can operate on overhead and 3rd rail is in Scotland?

The units were available quickly - that's probably the simplest answer. The 385s are still not ready therefore these units are filling a gap.

 

[Domh245]

forgive my ignorance, but as 365s were originally Thameslink trains and were built for dual voltage operation may I ask what the need for trains that can operate on overhead and 3rd rail is in Scotland?

1) They weren't intended for Thameslink services proper, and their DV capability isn't something that has ever properly existed - they have either run from the third rail, or the overheads, but never had the capability for both at the same time

2) There obviously isn't any need for them to run off of third rail whilst in scotland, but the important thing is that they are some capacity that is available right now. In much the same way that ATW don't need the bi-mode capacity of their 769 flexes (should they ever enter service), they just need something that will run under it's own power and that can be pressed into service ASAP.

 

[The_Engineer]

I’m amazed they are brining these old trains into service. Not impressed with them at all.

Not impressed? Have you carried out a technical assessment of them? Have you travelled on them?? Have you even seen them???

You are out of touch.... These trains are SO awful that passengers on the Thameslink/Great Northern line would rather wait for a Class 365 than take one of the new Class 700s.

 

[Hadders]

forgive my ignorance, but as 365s were originally Thameslink trains and were built for dual voltage operation may I ask what the need for trains that can operate on overhead and 3rd rail is in Scotland?

They have never operated on Thameslink and couldn't do so as they don't have front end doors which is a requirement for the Snow Hill Tunnels.

They are dual voltage units and when first introduced a number of 365s operated on Southeastern routes. In the early 2000s all of the 365s were transferred to the Great Northern routes and the 3rd rail shoe gear was removed.

These trains are SO awful that passengers on the Thameslink/Great Northern line would rather wait for a Class 365 than take one of the new Class 700s.

Indeed. The 365s are far superior to the class 700s in just about every area. Comments from Stevenage passengers when the 700s were introduced included 'can we have the old trains back' and 'maybe standard class is so bad to encourage passengers to upgrade to 1st class'.

Of course in the past few weeks were just grateful to have any train at all running but that's a different subject......

 

[delt1c]

forgive my ignorance, but as 365s were originally Thameslink trains and were built for dual voltage operation may I ask what the need for trains that can operate on overhead and 3rd rail is in Scotland?

As Del Boy would say to Rodney " What a Plonker"
Why were dual voltage units needed for services out of Kings Cross? But The 365's worked them and were very much loved on the services they operated

 

[NotATrainspott]

They have never operated on Thameslink and couldn't do so as they don't have front end doors which is a requirement for the Snow Hill Tunnels.

I think you mean the Widened Lines tunnels to Moorgate (not the Northern City Line). The 700s have no emergency exit doors at the ends since they will only run through twin-track tunnels. The 319s needed the end doors.

 

[43096]

They have never operated on Thameslink and couldn't do so as they don't have front end doors which is a requirement for the Snow Hill Tunnels.

You might want to re-write that, because the 700s do not have front end doors.

The end door requirement was for the Farringdon-Moorgate route, not the main Thameslink route. As that section has closed there is now no need for the end doors.

 

[gazthomas]

The 365 are great units, much nicer than a 319/769 and more comfortable than 700 (and there a little tables at least). Be careful what you wish for!

 

[Highlandspring]

may I ask what the need for trains that can operate on overhead and 3rd rail is in Scotland?

There isn’t any, of course, but they’re available now and cheap to lease.

 

[bramling]

forgive my ignorance, but as 365s were originally Thameslink trains and were built for dual voltage operation may I ask what the need for trains that can operate on overhead and 3rd rail is in Scotland?

They weren’t Thameslink trains. Of the original 41, 25 went to WAGN and 16 to Connex South Eastern. They were very much the first set of trains procured in the privatisation era, even if they were actually ordered under BR. As such they were made dual voltage with future flexibility in mind. There was finite money available and NSE made the best case - some slamdoor replacement south of the river, and quality new trains to drive growth on GN, plus indirectly replacing slamdoor trains on LTS by cascading 317s.

Whether there was any looking in the direction of Thameslink isn’t clear, however certainly by the time they entered service any expansive thoughts were more along the lines of WAGN running competitive services up to Doncaster. For various reasons it’s probably just as well this idea never came to fruition.

 

[James James]

What exactly is it you dislike about them?

They’re certainly not old - barely half life in fact - and have just recently had a heavy overhaul to bring the interior to as-new condition and make them accessibility compliant. They were nicer with their original layout (which was modified to fit priority seats) and carpet, but apart from that in my view they’re much nicer than a 380 which I find very clinical. The 365 also delivers a lot of seats for a given length of train due to a very efficient interior layout, and the heating is effective so you’ll be warm in winter.

They are rather smelly (in the two central cars), and quite loud inside. I've never been in a 380, but I'd still prefer clinical to the aforementioned adjectives.

 

[jopsuk]

Erm, the 365s in Kent entered service two months before Connex took control

 

[bramling]

They are rather smelly (in the two central cars), and quite loud inside. I've never been in a 380, but I'd still prefer clinical to the aforementioned adjectives.

Any train with controlled-emission toilets can and do smell, this isn’t by any means unique to 365s.

Not sure how it can be said that a 365 is loud though - perhaps when first moving off if sitting directly over the motors (extreme ends of the driving vehicles), but the trailer cars in particular are pretty silent.

 

[Chuggington21]

Not sure of reliability but good enough units for a stop gap. Spacious inside, good heating and air con. Quick and good braking.
They will be in service soon

I don't think it will be long until you see a 385

 

[muddythefish]

Not impressed? Have you carried out a technical assessment of them? Have you travelled on them?? Have you even seen them???

You are out of touch.... These trains are SO awful that passengers on the Thameslink/Great Northern line would rather wait for a Class 365 than take one of the new Class 700s.

....... and that includes the refurbished 365s. The old 365s were even better

 

[scotraildriver]

Now I've driven them I agree they are very good trains and I like the sounds they make. The cab (if a bit worn and dirty) is far superior to the new 385.Sadly I feel the press may focus on the lack of proper tables, Wi-Fi, Air Con, bike spaces, sockets etc rather than the quite impressive way Scotrail have acquired these units. I'm hoping they are here for the long haul.

 

[James James]

Any train with controlled-emission toilets can and do smell, this isn’t by any means unique to 365s.

Not sure how it can be said that a 365 is loud though - perhaps when first moving off if sitting directly over the motors (extreme ends of the driving vehicles), but the trailer cars in particular are pretty silent.

I've never experienced anything as bad as the 365s, in recent years I don't think I've ever been on one without a toilet smell (and I used them a fair bunch).

The noise is mainly because of the windows, I suppose trundling along the ECML (especially around tunnels) didn't help much.

 

[scotraildriver]

To be fair carrying human poo about for up to 18 hours a day is going to be tricky in terms of smell. I wonder why they don't use a chemical like Elsan blue ( like caravanners use) in retention toilets - It certainly works!

 

[Macwomble]

I wonder why they don't use a chemical like Elsan blue ( like caravanners use) in retention toilets - It certainly works!

Don't forget the pink "perfumed" stuff in the flush tank too.

 

[D365]

I've never experienced anything as bad as the 365s, in recent years I don't think I've ever been on one without a toilet smell (and I used them a fair bunch).

You can't have been using the ECML long, don't you remember the old 317s.

 

[bramling]

I've never experienced anything as bad as the 365s, in recent years I don't think I've ever been on one without a toilet smell (and I used them a fair bunch).

The noise is mainly because of the windows, I suppose trundling along the ECML (especially around tunnels) didn't help much.

The windows seem to divide opinion - some love them others hate them. They do deliver good ventilation when open however, and unlike air conditioning don’t fail.

As for smell, I take it you’ve never been on a Voyager?!

 

[Class 170101]

No air con - just open the window. Does it really get that hot in Scotland anyway.

 

[Hadders]

To be honest I'd rather have the windows than the air con which never seems to be set at an appropriate temperature on the 387s and 700s, in my opinion.

There's nothing quite like a journey in a 365 on a hot summers day on the down fast non-stop from Kings Cross to Stevenage with all the windows open

 

[gsnedders]

My experience on the 334s (that were all refurbished to have air con) is despite notices telling train crew to keep windows locked because the units have air con invariably open some of the windows on the hot days like a week or two ago (okay, not massively hot, but still hot enough that the trains inside uncooled get pretty hot!); any carriage with no windows open was significantly colder than those with it open, because the air con could actually do its job.

 

[Royston Vasey]

They are rather smelly (in the two central cars), and quite loud inside. I've never been in a 380, but I'd still prefer clinical to the aforementioned adjectives.

In 15 years travelling on Class 365s I’ve never ever ever noticed significant toilet smells unless very close to the open door. As for two whole coaches, don’t talk rot. Have you even been on one??

 

[James James]

In 15 years travelling on Class 365s I’ve never ever ever noticed significant toilet smells unless very close to the open door. As for two whole coaches, don’t talk rot. Have you even been on one??

Yes I have, and yes - every single time I boarded at KGX I'd invariably pick one of the two center coaches, then notice the smell, then move to an end coach. Every time I boarded anywhere else, the train was already too full to move (but I usually had more luck remembering which coach to pick). It's my main memory of the unit. (The smell did get less bad the further you went from the toilet, but it was still noticeable in the entire carriage - and it seemed the smaller toilet was the worse one for smell.)

I see people are rather touchy about their trains here...

(Just to be clear I'm talking about the toilet chemical smell, not the excrement smell. It's somewhat similar to urinal smell.)

 

[92002]

So that's 5 8 car sets. How many are actually required to run the full service and does 10 sets match the capacity/number of diesel sets that are leaving? Apologies if this has been covered before.

The E&G 4 trains an hour needs 21 sets. 20 in service and a maintenance spare.

There currently is 5 x 380s in sevice. With another 10 x 365s. That leaves a space for 6 x modified 385s to make the service all electric.

The lease is up on 6 diesel units in July.

 

[Chris225]

The E&G 4 trains an hour needs 21 sets. 20 in service and a maintenance spare.

There currently is 5 x 380s in sevice. With another 10 x 365s. That leaves a space for 6 x modified 385s to make the service all electric.

The lease is up on 6 diesel units in July.

Surely for 4 trains an hour on doubled up sets it’s 16units for full service? Plus a couple that can be rotated for maintenance?

 

[The_Engineer]

[

Surely for 4 trains an hour on doubled up sets it’s 16units for full service? Plus a couple that can be rotated for maintenance?

As reported in the Scotsman:

The trains (i.e. Class 365s) are expected to operate two of the four hourly services between the cities. A third is already run by other electric trains. The fourth will continue to be operated by one of the existing diesel trains, which are to be replaced.

That means four x 8-car Class 365, two x Class 380 and two x Class 170 operated diagrams, with two x Class 365 on maintenance but could be used vice Class 170s if available.

Already been done to death up the thread...…..