Luton: Why does it feel like a rundown Northern ex-mill town but is 45 minutes from London?

[bramling]

Speaking of crap towns, yesterday I noticed hoardings up outside the (still open) pub at Dewsbury station with posters detailing the upcoming "gateway" improvements. On these posters is a section which claims the station at present offers no real sense of arrival to the town (the exact wording is different, but that's the gist). However anyone who has visited Dewsbury will know that despite some lovely architecture among the carbuncles, it is pretty much a ghost town. Even without the proposed improvements to the station environment, if you arrive by train it's all downhill from there, both topographically and figuratively!

I must say I personally don’t find Dewsbury that bad - not the town centre anyway. The station is very nice - nice architecture, smart and fit for purpose, and as you say there is some nice architecture in the town centre. That’s two plus points over Luton for a start.

 

[adrock1976]

In regards to the earlier reference a few pages ago about Leighton Buzzard, plus regarding what else Luton has going for it, I would like to mention that Leighton Buzzard is famous for the 1980s band Kajagoogoo, who named themselves after the first sounds a newly born baby makes.

On the musical theme, Luton is famous for the band Jethro Tull as some of the original members were from Luton, with the band naming themselves after the inventor of the seed drill.

 

[Mikey C]

Luton is a strange place, while it may have lost work due to the factory closures, surely the expansion of the airport must have compensated. Some of the aircraft maintenance jobs there are highly skilled. You'd have thought the improvement of the railway services over the years - HST, Bedpan electrification, Thameslink - would have helped.

I can see why people feel it's like a northern ex-mill town too, as no other place in the south east seems to combine being rundown with the serious racial divides of places like Rochdale. Indeed it also manages to add in ugliness too!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Luton is a strange place, while it may have lost work due to the factory closures, surely the expansion of the airport must have compensated. Some of the aircraft maintenance jobs there are highly skilled. You'd have thought the improvement of the railway services over the years - HST, Bedpan electrification, Thameslink - would have helped.

I can see why people feel it's like a northern ex-mill town too, as no other place in the south east seems to combine being rundown with the serious racial divides of places like Rochdale. Indeed it also manages to add in ugliness too!

You would think somewhere on Thameslink with cheapish housing would gentrify a bit...but maybe it's just too far gone?

It will, on vaguely similar lines, be interesting to see if Crossrail has that kind of effect on Slough.

 

[radamfi]

You would think somewhere on Thameslink with cheapish housing would gentrify a bit...but maybe it's just too far gone?

It will, on vaguely similar lines, be interesting to see if Crossrail has that kind of effect on Slough.

Ebbsfleet International has on paper created the most transformational rail service in the London commuter belt but it doesn't seem to have encouraged young professionals to flock to the area. I work with many highly educated people in their twenties. When the conversation comes to the unaffordability of housing, I have occasionally mentioned the existence of Ebbsfleet and explained the speed and frequency of service, but they would rather flat share in Zone 2 and have a longer commute involving slow buses and tubes.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Ebbsfleet International has on paper created the most transformational rail service in the London commuter belt but it doesn't seem to have encouraged young professionals to flock to the area. I work with many highly educated people in their twenties. When the conversation comes to the unaffordability of housing, I have occasionally mentioned the existence of Ebbsfleet and explained the speed and frequency of service, but they would rather flat share in Zone 2 and have a longer commute involving slow buses and tubes.

You're unlikely to tempt "twentysomethings" with not living actually in London as they like the vibe and social opportunities. But there's no reason older people who would accept a commute in favour of a bigger house etc shouldn't be tempted there, really.

 

[cactustwirly]

You're unlikely to tempt "twentysomethings" with not living actually in London as they like the vibe and social opportunities. But there's no reason older people who would accept a commute in favour of a bigger house etc shouldn't be tempted there, really.

But Luton is a Shot hole!
Why would you move move there, when you can afford nicer places like Maidenhead, High Wycombe etc

 

[Bletchleyite]

But Luton is a Shot hole!
Why would you move move there, when you can afford nicer places like Maidenhead, High Wycombe etc

Because you can get a bigger/nicer house (or afford one at all). That's how gentrification in London has worked.

 

[radamfi]

I know someone who has moved from St Albans to Dunstable due to being priced out of St Albans after divorce, but Dunstable was still preferred over Luton despite inferior transport.

 

[EM2]

Ebbsfleet International has on paper created the most transformational rail service in the London commuter belt but it doesn't seem to have encouraged young professionals to flock to the area.

Really? My experience over the last three years is that there are plenty of young professionals and young families who have moved to the Ebbsfleet area.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I know someone who has moved from St Albans to Dunstable due to being priced out of St Albans after divorce, but Dunstable was still preferred over Luton despite inferior transport.

I'd choose Dunstable over Luton too, TBH.

 

[fowler9]

Dunstable, Ebbsfleet, St Albans, Luton are all meh unless you are looking at settling down. No reason to go to any of them otherwise.

 

[bramling]

Dunstable, Ebbsfleet, St Albans, Luton are all meh unless you are looking at settling down. No reason to go to any of them otherwise.

Not sure I'd include St Albans in that.

Whilst IMO it's an over-rated town [*], sorry city, it does have a few things to offer such as a reasonably vibrant high street, cathedral, park ,et cetera - plus a couple of rather well-regarded schools which have a wide catchment area.

By contrast Luton is simply a dump, Dunstable is increasingly a nothingy extension of Luton which seems to offer nothing more than housing, some tacky retail/fast food units, and congested roads.

In the area served by train from King's Cross and St Pancras the only towns I'd really rate are Hitchin, Letchworth and Harpenden - and to a slightly lesser extent Welwyn Garden City, Baldock and Royston. Over-development and displacement of people from London seems to be doing its best to spoil even these.

[* I actually don't really get what's so special about St Albans - for a start it's congested, then not far from the centre one encounters some quite manky estates, albeit nothing compared to something like Marsh Farm. The only real plus is the infamous 20-minute train service to London, albeit partly nullified because the station is in a crappy position so for many they can add quite a bit onto the journey time if one includes time spent getting to/from City station.]

 

[dievoyagerdie]

I spent six months living in LUTON. I can honestly say it's the worst place in the UK. In the six months my car was smashed in, the house I rented a room in suffered from an attempted break in and the airport where I worked at was dysfunctional and depressing just like the town.

 

[fowler9]

Not sure I'd include St Albans in that.

Whilst IMO it's an over-rated town [*], sorry city, it does have a few things to offer such as a reasonably vibrant high street, cathedral, park ,et cetera - plus a couple of rather well-regarded schools which have a wide catchment area.

By contrast Luton is simply a dump, Dunstable is increasingly a nothingy extension of Luton which seems to offer nothing more than housing, some tacky retail/fast food units, and congested roads.

In the area served by train from King's Cross and St Pancras the only towns I'd really rate are Hitchin, Letchworth and Harpenden - and to a slightly lesser extent Welwyn Garden City, Baldock and Royston. Over-development and displacement of people from London seems to be doing its best to spoil even these.

[* I actually don't really get what's so special about St Albans - for a start it's congested, then not far from the centre one encounters some quite manky estates, albeit nothing compared to something like Marsh Farm. The only real plus is the infamous 20-minute train service to London, albeit partly nullified because the station is in a crappy position so for many they can add quite a bit onto the journey time if one includes time spent getting to/from City station.]

A mate of mine has just moved from West Kirby to Hitchin. It looks very pleasant. He tells people he lives in London because it is the nearest built up area, albeit too far away to call it somewhere he does his socialising.

 

[bramling]

A mate of mine has just moved from West Kirby to Hitchin. It looks very pleasant. He tells people he lives in London because it is the nearest built up area, albeit too far away to call it somewhere he does his socialising.

Hitchin is a bit of a strange one. It's a nice town, albeit the café capital of Hertfordshire. Become rather overcrowded in the last few years though, issues over things like congestion, parking spaces, etc. Always a slightly smug town however, and now seems to attract another smug subset from London - the type where a household can have seven cars, keep a fleet of sports cars / 4x4s used only for occasional trips to the station/Waitrose!

The one which amuses me is Letchworth - voted itself nicest town in Britain at one point. Yes it's not a bad town at all, although one wonders if they included parts like Jackmans Estate in the nicest town declaration, but I definitely wouldn't say nicest in Britain. It is, after all, effectively a new town.

The tidemark between Hitchin and the surroundings towns of Stevenage, and more so Luton, is stark! Just a few miles in between.

 

[387star]

Harpenden residents must feel ashamed to live so close

 

[dievoyagerdie]

I do think Harpenden is quaint and pretty a different world to the LUTON just up the road. A adidferent world!

 

[bramling]

I do think Harpenden is quaint and pretty a different world to the LUTON just up the road. A adidferent world!

People in the surrounding towns likely don't really notice Luton exists, apart from if they have the (unpleasant) experience of having to drive through it at any time. Apart from some air noise, and the surroundings towns perhaps having slightly more Asian taxi drivers than would otherwise be the case, Luton does by and large keep itself to itself. Whether that will always be the case if Luton expands will of course be another matter.

 

[dievoyagerdie]

LUTON should become a walled city. It's vile. Worst six months of my life!

 

[AM9]

People in the surrounding towns likely don't really notice Luton exists, apart from if they have the (unpleasant) experience of having to drive through it at any time. Apart from some air noise, and the surroundings towns perhaps having slightly more Asian taxi drivers than would otherwise be the case, Luton does by and large keep itself to itself. Whether that will always be the case if Luton expands will of course be another matter.

I wouldn't quite put it as surrounding towns not really noticing. The airport is quite intrusive in some ways:

all of the flight paths both inbound and outbound pass over Hertfordshire settlements, yet Luton planners pay little attention to the noise impact on North an Western Herts., as they part-own the airport.
much of the M1 and surrounding roads are regularly clogged, (particularly in the counter-peak commute direction by the high numbers of commuter and business related traffic flying out of the airport).​

I don't have an issue with Pakistani and other Asian taxi drivers in st Albans, -indeed apart from very occasional dialect/accent difficulties, they seem to be as good as any other cabbies.

 

[bramling]

I wouldn't quite put it as surrounding towns not really noticing. The airport is quite intrusive in some ways:

all of the flight paths both inbound and outbound pass over Hertfordshire settlements, yet Luton planners pay little attention to the noise impact on North an Western Herts., as they part-own the airport.
much of the M1 and surrounding roads are regularly clogged, (particularly in the counter-peak commute direction by the high numbers of commuter and business related traffic flying out of the airport).
​

​

These are fair points, although I did mention traffic and air as being exceptions. I suspect air noise varies very much from place to place - for example it's not really an issue in Hitchin, but go just a couple of miles away to a village under the flightpath and it clearly is.

Thankfully those of us from North / East Hertfordshire generally manage to avoid the M1 thanks to the generally superior A1. If driving to the north-west I'd generally take the A1 to Scotch Corner then A66 rather than use the M1, and even when heading for the M6 I've figured it's actually not so bad to take the A1 to Huntingdon and then A14. Even if one has to go north on the M1 there are thankfully routes available which avoid Luton! Having said all that, I'd say the expansion of Milton Keynes has had a more negative effect on the M1 than Luton, although this is purely perception and this I could be seeing things wrongly.

I don't have an issue with Pakistani and other Asian taxi drivers in st Albans, -indeed apart from very occasional dialect/accent difficulties, they seem to be as good as any other cabbies.

I can't really comment as I don't use local taxis. However Hitchin, at least, does seem to have a massive over-supply of taxis. It's not uncommon to massive numbers queuing up at the station rank and spilling out onto other roads. Then again, people do seem to use them, even just to avoid pretty minimal walks.

 

[AM9]

​

These are fair points, although I did mention traffic and air as being exceptions. I suspect air noise varies very much from place to place - for example it's not really an issue in Hitchin, but go just a couple of miles away to a village under the flightpath and it clearly is.

Thankfully those of us from North / East Hertfordshire generally manage to avoid the M1 thanks to the generally superior A1. If driving to the north-west I'd generally take the A1 to Scotch Corner then A66 rather than use the M1, and even when heading for the M6 I've figured it's actually not so bad to take the A1 to Huntingdon and then A14. Even if one has to go north on the M1 there are thankfully routes available which avoid Luton! Having said all that, I'd say the expansion of Milton Keynes has had a more negative effect on the M1 than Luton, although this is purely perception and this I could be seeing things wrongly...

The M1 to mee seems a safer motorway, given that it is fairly consistently 3/4 lane, (originally built as 3 lane from J7 to J18), its sight-lines and curves being as designed. The A1(M) however is a two and three lane creation as a series of bypasses around the old A1 hot spots. Traffic on the A1(M) always seems (to me) to be in a mad rush, frequently resulting in mishaps, especially at those transitions, (Old Welwyn, J8/9 etc.). Just an impression.

... I can't really comment as I don't use local taxis. However Hitchin, at least, does seem to have a massive over-supply of taxis. It's not uncommon to massive numbers queuing up at the station rank and spilling out onto other roads. Then again, people do seem to use them, even just to avoid pretty minimal walks.

Yes it sometimes seems like that at St Albans, but when a couple, (or even just one) peak trains turns up, all of a sudden there aren't enough taxis.Such is the volums that trains can quickly disgorge in minutes.

 

[bramling]

The M1 to mee seems a safer motorway, given that it is fairly consistently 3/4 lane, (originally built as 3 lane from J7 to J18), its sight-lines and curves being as designed. The A1(M) however is a two and three lane creation as a series of bypasses around the old A1 hot spots. Traffic on the A1(M) always seems (to me) to be in a mad rush, frequently resulting in mishaps, especially at those transitions, (Old Welwyn, J8/9 etc.). Just an impression.

You're right the A1(M) heading south is awful - and has got increasingly so in the last decade. There are ways of avoiding the hideous Stevenage-Welwyn section, which is where most of the mishaps happen. The deterioration of the A1(M) has more to do with expansion of places like Stevenage and the string of new towns north of Baldock than Luton though.

If you live in North or East Hertfordshire using the M1 to get to London isn't really a good option - due to having to drive through or round Luton!

However heading north it quickly becomes quite a nice road. The M1 *should* be better - as you say it's a full motorway, whereas the A1 has things like sharp bends, side turnings and other hazards. However like most things in life the main spoiler is people, and as such I'd prefer the quieter A1. The M1 south of Northampton is an awful experience at times, especially south of Milton Keynes -- again having got a lot worse in the last decade.

 

[Mikey C]

The M1 to mee seems a safer motorway, given that it is fairly consistently 3/4 lane, (originally built as 3 lane from J7 to J18), its sight-lines and curves being as designed. The A1(M) however is a two and three lane creation as a series of bypasses around the old A1 hot spots. Traffic on the A1(M) always seems (to me) to be in a mad rush, frequently resulting in mishaps, especially at those transitions, (Old Welwyn, J8/9 etc.). Just an impression.

Yes it sometimes seems like that at St Albans, but when a couple, (or even just one) peak trains turns up, all of a sudden there aren't enough taxis.Such is the volums that trains can quickly disgorge in minutes.

At the risk of this turning into a SABRE conversation (perhaps on that road site they are currently now discussing the Thameslink driver issues ) the A1 is quite a patchy road when compared to the M1, especially the not upgraded section between Baldock and Alconbury which is horrible.

 

[bramling]

At the risk of this turning into a SABRE conversation (perhaps on that road site they are currently now discussing the Thameslink driver issues ) the A1 is quite a patchy road when compared to the M1, especially the not upgraded section between Baldock and Alconbury which is horrible.

It makes me laugh that north of Huntingdon there's not a single roundabout until Berwick, and a gold-plated 3-lane section all the way through sparsely populated Yorkshire. Yet south of Huntingdon there's five roundabouts plus the notorious Stevenage-Welwyn section, which should have been widened in the 1990s but was cancelled by New Labour.

Yet people up north claim they don't get a fair deal!

 

[Mojo]

It makes me laugh that north of Huntingdon there's not a single roundabout until Berwick, and a gold-plated 3-lane section all the way through sparsely populated Yorkshire. Yet south of Huntingdon there's five roundabouts plus the notorious Stevenage-Welwyn section, which should have been widened in the 1990s but was cancelled by New Labour.

I actually don't mind it, we drive to Newark every couple of weeks (normally heading north on a Friday evening) and I don't think I've ever encountered traffic congestion on those roundabouts; it normally seems to just be north of Peterborough rather than at any of the roundabouts or other junctions in the South. It'll be slightly better when the A14 roadworks are finished in a couple of years but they don't really cause any congestion. I like the roundabouts, breaks up the monotony of driving on high speed roads for ~200km.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I actually don't mind it, we drive to Newark every couple of weeks (normally heading north on a Friday evening) and I don't think I've ever encountered traffic congestion on those roundabouts; it normally seems to just be north of Peterborough rather than at any of the roundabouts or other junctions in the South. It'll be slightly better when the A14 roadworks are finished in a couple of years but they don't really cause any congestion. I like the roundabouts, breaks up the monotony of driving on high speed roads for ~200km.

There is that. I must admit I prefer to do a very long distance drive via the A1/A1M because it's less monotonous than the M1.

 

[Groningen]

At least you have an airport to directly escape this town. Not all towns are so Lucky.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

At least you have an airport to directly escape this town. Not all towns are so Lucky.

..even the airport has been a building site for the past 40 years. I don't think there has ever been a time in the last 40 years when there hasn't been some major works going on there.