Northern strike action suspended

[nuts & bolts]

How did that happen, the computer system should not of allowed that function to work. But sometimes they only need to use the RA I suppose.

Dispatch staff not having their eyes on the job.

Correct:-/

 

[nuts & bolts]

How did that happen, the computer system should not of allowed that function to work. But sometimes they only need to use the RA I suppose.

For ECS moves (empty coaching stock).

 

[edwin_m]

I never said anything about the RA being interlocked with the CD. What I mentioned was interlock with the signal.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It'll be more expensive too... even if not ALL stations are barriered, most of them will need to be for it to have any effect.

That is clearly untrue. Manchester Metrolink is fully DOO but has no barriered stations whatsoever. PFs are a perfectly valid way of enforcing buy before you board in a DOO context, you just have to have frequent enough inspections.

 

[yorksrob]

That is clearly untrue. Manchester Metrolink is fully DOO but has no barriered stations whatsoever. PFs are a perfectly valid way of enforcing buy before you board in a DOO context, you just have to have frequent enough inspections.

By which time, you might as well have someone on every train.

 

[Bletchleyite]

By which time, you might as well have someone on every train.

Which is patently untrue, otherwise Metrolink would have financial issues caused by poor levels of fares income. Whereas it manages, unlike Northern, not to require any operating subsidy at all.

 

[Killingworth]

By which time, you might as well have someone on every train.

Essential on lightly loaded long rural lines I'd have thought. Why might I be thinking of stations like St Bees, Thornton Abbey, and Kildale?

 

[yorksrob]

Which is patently untrue, otherwise Metrolink would have financial issues caused by poor levels of fares income. Whereas it manages, unlike Northern, not to require any operating subsidy at all.

Well, Metrolink is hived off from having to serve some longish rural routes, which might have something to do with its miraculous subsidy free status.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well, Metrolink is hived off from having to serve some longish rural routes, which might have something to do with its miraculous subsidy free status.

My point was that if DOO with unbarriered stations was a non-viable method of revenue collection, it would need a whacking subsidy because it wouldn't collect enough fares income. But the fact is that it does.

 

[yorksrob]

Essential on lightly loaded long rural lines I'd have thought. Why might I be thinking of stations like St Bees, Thornton Abbey, and Kildale?

Absolutely.

 

[reb0118]

If the drivers are going to operate (at least release) the doors I think you're going to see more of them anyway. It will make the revenue part of the guard role much easier.

Not necessarily, it is always good to see how many passengers (& of what type) are boarding and where they boarded (in both meanings: at which station & where on the train). Also, I have found that passengers who would previously make an effort to pay you quickly as we approached their stop (to minimise delays in opening the doors) will now brazen it out as when the driver opens the doors they just walk away.

Often I find myself waiting at a door until the driver (or more often the train) works out where it is before releasing.

On one route we work on train revenue is significantly down due to the new working practices and of course longer trains.

 

[driver_m]

But nearly everyone realises that’s almost entirely down to whether a TOC wishes to spend time and money on training new recruits alongside the bargaining power of the de facto closed shop that exists within the drivers grade, rather than any meaningful difference in productivity between XC and drivers at other TOCs

If it was such a closed shop. We'd all be on a lot more money than we are, and all have similar/same T&C's. And those new, off the street colleagues of mine got trained up by my lot. So go on, enlighten us with more of your wisdom.

 

[muz379]

From what I understand, the unions don't go on strike willy nilly. They still assess each case to see whether there is any merit to the member's case. I have knowledge of quite a few cases where the union was unable to help the member in question, so there is no guarantee at all there would be a strike.

Quite , lets not forget that any strike ballot would also have to have a positive result returned by the members . Are a full TOC's worth of guards going to vote for action over a member that was not doing their job properly ? Perhaps the dismissed guards mates at their own depot might , but beyond that I dont think I would be willing to vote for action unless management had seriously wronged someone .

That is clearly untrue. Manchester Metrolink is fully DOO but has no barriered stations whatsoever. PFs are a perfectly valid way of enforcing buy before you board in a DOO context, you just have to have frequent enough inspections.

I dont think that metrolink is a good example for "frequent enough inspections" I can go a full week using it without experiencing a ticket check . I also dont think that theirs are in my experience entirely random . Anybody with half a brain can figure out fairly quickly when and where their tickets will be checked on metrolink .

 

[Andrew Nelson]

The internet is great, you can find lots of useful figures.

https://www.rmt.org.uk/about/ballot...-of-doo-arriva-rail-north280217/?preview=true

An what percentage of the membership who were qualified to vote?

Or would that be inconvenient?

 

[a_c_skinner]

Isn't the real thing about Metrolink that it is step free so assistance isn't generally an issue?

 

[bengley]

Quite , lets not forget that any strike ballot would also have to have a positive result returned by the members . Are a full TOC's worth of guards going to vote for action over a member that was not doing their job properly ? Perhaps the dismissed guards mates at their own depot might , but beyond that I dont think I would be willing to vote for action unless management had seriously wronged someone .



I dont think that metrolink is a good example for "frequent enough inspections" I can go a full week using it without experiencing a ticket check . I also dont think that theirs are in my experience entirely random . Anybody with half a brain can figure out fairly quickly when and where their tickets will be checked on metrolink .

I've never had my ticket checked on Metrolink.

 

[Eccles1983]

I've never had my ticket checked on Metrolink.

Neither have I.

Methinks too much is made with little actual practical usage, and it's only really Victoria that sees ticket checks on leaving.

It's a free ride for most..

 

[R G NOW.]

I never said anything about the RA being interlocked with the CD. What I mentioned was interlock with the signal.

Usually, the system was like this?. No train in platform, all buttons not active, train arrives in platform T.R.T.S function active.(unless signal already off) Plunger pressed, Route is set, then CD and RA functions should then activate and 'OFF' displayed on platform canopy, key inserted in CD switch, turned quarter turn, CD indicator on platform and signal, then RA given, CD indicator goes out and then RA indicator lights up on platform and signal, sorted.

Off topic, but needed to be highlighted.

 

[Tomnick]

Usually, the system was like this?. No train in platform, all buttons not active, train arrives in platform T.R.T.S function active.(unless signal already off) Plunger pressed, Route is set, then CD and RA functions should then activate and 'OFF' displayed on platform canopy, key inserted in CD switch, turned quarter turn, CD indicator on platform and signal, then RA given, CD indicator goes out and then RA indicator lights up on platform and signal, sorted.

Off topic, but needed to be highlighted.

I’m fairly sure you can get the CD indication with the signal at danger, on some installations at least. The ‘off’ indication - if there is one - won’t illuminate until the signal’s cleared either, not just when the route’s set.

 

[R G NOW.]

I’m fairly sure you can get the CD indication with the signal at danger, on some installations at least. The ‘off’ indication - if there is one - won’t illuminate until the signal’s cleared either, not just when the route’s set.

The above information I put, mainly referred to the system installed at BTM. As I met a bloke putting in the boxes on platform 7, and he told me, that how it was to be setup there. Each station appears to be different. At Cardiff they just have T.R.T.S buttons and RA switches, the CD one is covered with a label saying not yet in use. Also the platform canopies only have 'OFF' indicators at the moment.

At my local station, the system is still in the old brass plunger idea, very old and ancient. It is not known as to whether the RA system still works, the staff just seem to blow whistles and wave a silly plastic white baton in the air. Old fashioned now.

 

[driver_m]

An what percentage of the membership who were qualified to vote?

Or would that be inconvenient?

Nearly 900 guards. Doesn't take a genius to work out that it's a very large proportion of the staff, and those that did voted by a huge margin. How is the clutching at straws getting along?

 

[CHAPS2034]

James Heck said: ↑
An what percentage of the membership who were qualified to vote?

Or would that be inconvenient?

Nearly 900 guards. Doesn't take a genius to work out that it's a very large proportion of the staff, and those that did voted by a huge margin. How is the clutching at straws getting along?

By Heck driver_m...

 

[Andrew Nelson]

Nearly 900 guards. Doesn't take a genius to work out that it's a very large proportion of the staff, and those that did voted by a huge margin. How is the clutching at straws getting along?

Well, I hope they think it was worth it to potentially loose thousands in pay, and end up exactly where they started.

 

[yorksrob]

Well, I hope they think it was worth it to potentially loose thousands in pay, and end up exactly where they started.

I thought their aim was to remain where they'd started !

 

[Bletchleyite]

I thought their aim was to remain where they'd started !

Well, quite. I think every single guard on Northern would have been happy with the outcome being their existing job on the existing T&Cs with no changes at all to working methods other than a fancy new fleet and a reasonable annual pay rise. Indeed that was the best case option, wasn't it?

 

[Carlisle]

So go on, enlighten us with more of your wisdom.

You’ll probably find some Royal, private and government chauffeurs around the world on similar or even higher salaries than train drivers , so by your analogy with cross country all taxi drivers should aspire to similar wages with no increase in productivity

 

[ainsworth74]

I thought their aim was to remain where they'd started !

Well, er, yes! I think they'd be quite happy to end up where they started!

 

[Andrew Nelson]

I thought their aim was to remain where they'd started !

Well, I didn't word that too succinctly.

What I meant was Northern haven't obviously changed their position, there is, and until the end of the franchise always was going to be a second member of staff on every train.

All jobs were guaranteed, with no cuts in pay.

And yet they've lost a great deal of money and got Northern to change absolutely jack.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

Well, quite. I think every single guard on Northern would have been happy with the outcome being their existing job on the existing T&Cs with no changes at all to working methods other than a fancy new fleet and a reasonable annual pay rise. Indeed that was the best case option, wasn't it?

And how is that any different to what was going to happen?

 

[Carlisle]

Well, I didn't word that too succinctly.

What I meant was Northern haven't obviously changed their position, there is, and until the end of the franchise always was going to be a second member of staff on every train.

All jobs were guaranteed, with no cuts in pay.

And yet they've lost a great deal of money and got Northern to change absolutely jack.

It all depends on the outcome of the negotiations, if they end up with the same deal Scotrail signed up to then northern will have achieved absolutely nothing given the RMT offered that prior to the ballot, whereas a Greater Anglia or Merseyrail style proposal would be more of a genuine compromise by all concerned