Could TFWs fleet replacement be a disaster?

[TT-ONR-NRN]

That is my question, and I mean it seriously. Obviously many of us were somewhat optimistic at first, but after reading a number of press releases I’m considerably less optimistic about the Transport for Wales fleet upgrade.

First of all I found out that the new tram train services will not have toilets; those that will be replacing Pacers on services to Merthyr Tydfill, Treherbert and Aberdare - well trains for example the 0938 from Merthyr Tydfill take two hours to reach their destination. This cannot be ideal without toilets.

Secondly, the long distance fleet. A fleet of mainly two carriage trains with some three carriage ones? That’s like - no capacity growth whatsoever, when it’s badly needed on Manchester to Milford and Holyhead to Cardiff services. And even worse - the renders I’ve seen show ironing board seats and NO END DOORS.

So not only do we get no upgrade in capacity but a downgrade in seating and now a commuter style door layout that will bring in drafts and noise at every station call.

Sorry, but I’m not at all optimistic about this fleet replacement. What do you think?

 

[craigybagel]

That is my question, and I mean it seriously. Obviously many of us were somewhat optimistic at first, but after reading a number of press releases I’m considerably less optimistic about the Transport for Wales fleet upgrade.

First of all I found out that the new tram train services will not have toilets; those that will be replacing Pacers on services to Merthyr Tydfill, Treherbert and Aberdare - well trains for example the 0938 from Merthyr Tydfill take two hours to reach their destination. This cannot be ideal without toilets.

Whilst it is true that the trams won't have toilets, most people won't be making the long journeys that you have mentioned. And services like that run up and down the country with no toilets all the time without major changes. The big difference is that with the improvements in frequencies people will be able to leave the train at an intermediate station, use the facilities there, and then continue without a long wait for another train. I agree it's not perfect, or as good as what currently exists, but it's a small price to pay for the overall improvements.

Secondly, the long distance fleet. A fleet of mainly two carriage trains with some three carriage ones? That’s like - no capacity growth whatsoever, when it’s badly needed on Manchester to Milford and Holyhead to Cardiff services. And even worse - the renders I’ve seen show ironing board seats and NO END DOORS.

So not only do we get no upgrade in capacity but a downgrade in seating and now a commuter style door layout that will bring in drafts and noise at every station call.

Sorry, but I’m not at all optimistic about this fleet replacement. What do you think?

The units are 2 and 3 car with gangway doors - so the plan is they'll run in multiple. Manchester - South Wales is expected to go up to 5 cars as far as Swansea for example. You'll also have many more services running compared to now. Shrewsbury - Cardiff goes up to 4 trains every 2 hours as opposed to the current 3. North Wales coast goes from 2 per hour to 3. Between all that there's plenty of extra capacity.

⅓ ⅔ doors are a requirement as these units will work many bust commuter services. As great as the 175s, they really struggle with loading times at busy times. Also, a large amount of passengers are making short journeys even away from the cities for which these doors are much more handy. Also, very few passengers on units like 170s, 185s and 350s ever seem to complain about the doors despite the long distance running. So long as the seats are comfortable, they'll do fine.

I wouldn't worry too much about the seats or any part of the interior design just yet - that was just a generic rendering. Nothing has been set in stone yet.

 

[PHILIPE]

Wouldn't this thread suffice ?

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/keolis-amey-wales-future-rolling-stock.164954/page-45

 

[6Gtraincrew]

Well I'd say going from a fleet compromising of 271 coaches and having 16,882 seat and ending up with a fleet of 480 coaches with 25,700 seats constitutes growth.

 

[Bertie the bus]

When I look at TfW’s fleet replacement strategy, with the 230s and 769s, it reminds me of a railway version of the kindly but slightly dotty women you see on the news from time to time who set up refuges for no hopers – 3 legged badgers, hedgehogs without spines, etc. If it’s not quite right then TfW will give it a home.

 

[craigybagel]

When I look at TfW’s fleet replacement strategy, with the 230s and 769s, it reminds me of a railway version of the kindly but slightly dotty women you see on the news from time to time who set up refuges for no hopers – 3 legged badgers, hedgehogs without spines, etc. If it’s not quite right then TfW will give it a home.

The 769s TfW were lumbered with from the previous administration, and are only temporary anyway.

The 230s are a unique solution for a unique line. Any other DMU on the market would be overkill for Wrexham - Bidston.

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

First of all I found out that the new tram train services will not have toilets; those that will be replacing Pacers on services to Merthyr Tydfill, Treherbert and Aberdare - well trains for example the 0938 from Merthyr Tydfill take two hours to reach their destination. This cannot be ideal without toilets.

I think you've misunderstood the plan here. Currently some Merthyr Tydfill, Treherbert and Aberdare services run through Cardiff Central to other destinations although the number of passengers not getting on or off in Cardiff is very small.

When the tram-trains are introduced all the Merthyr, Treherbert and Aberdare services will terminate either at Cardiff Central or Cardiff Bay giving a maximum journey time of around fifty minutes.

Rhymney Valley services will continue to run through Cardiff Central but they'll have onboard toilets.

 

[irish_rail]

Those toiletless trams should prove interesting on a Saturday evening heading up to the valleys!!!!

 

[Cardiff123]

Those toiletless trams should prove interesting on a Saturday evening heading up to the valleys!!!!

Apparently the last services of the night will have 'toilet stops' at various stations to allow people to relieve themselves..........

 

[yorksrob]

I see the old excuses coming out for building trains without toilets. It'a step backwards.

 

[S-Bahn]

I'm not a fan of the new franchise. It's a wasted opportunity and looks like it is being done on the cheap and with gimmicks such as 100m of street running in Cardiff bay for tram-trains.

Where the big future-proof thinking? Surely either taking more Mk4's from LNER or buying the new MK5 coaches with a bi/mode loco would allow for adding additional carriage if demand increases over the course of the franchise?

Instead they are buying Civity's for North-South services. Why?

 

[Cardiff123]

I'm not a fan of the new franchise. It's a wasted opportunity and looks like it is being done on the cheap and with gimmicks such as 100m of street running in Cardiff bay for tram-trains.

Where the big future-proof thinking? Surely either taking more Mk4's from LNER or buying the new MK5 coaches with a bi/mode loco would allow for adding additional carriage if demand increases over the course of the franchise?

Instead they are buying Civity's for North-South services. Why?

Why? Because the DfT are contributing just £125m to the franchise, all of which is for upgrading the Valley lines. Welsh Govt and Keolis Amey have to find the rest, and Welsh Govt especially doesn't have an unlimited pot of money.

 

[S-Bahn]

Welsh Govt and Keolis Amey have to find the rest, and Welsh Govt especially doesn't have an unlimited pot of money.

And this again shows the lack of big thinking by governments. We are talking about a major upgrade of the entire fleet (due to Arriva not having to do anything previously).

Electrification schemes and new trains are not consumption items, they are investments that will pay for themselves when demand for rail travel continues to increase, resulting in greater ticket revenue.

 

[Llanigraham]

I'm not a fan of the new franchise. It's a wasted opportunity and looks like it is being done on the cheap and with gimmicks such as 100m of street running in Cardiff bay for tram-trains.

Where the big future-proof thinking? Surely either taking more Mk4's from LNER or buying the new MK5 coaches with a bi/mode loco would allow for adding additional carriage if demand increases over the course of the franchise?

Instead they are buying Civity's for North-South services. Why?

Because the idiots in control of westminster refuse to do anything but the minimum in respect of the Welsh Assembly. It would be very different if the WA wasn't Labour run.

 

[craigybagel]

And this again shows the lack of big thinking by governments. We are talking about a major upgrade of the entire fleet (due to Arriva not having to do anything previously).

Electrification schemes and new trains are not consumption items, they are investments that will pay for themselves when demand for rail travel continues to increase, resulting in greater ticket revenue.

You're also talking about what was one of the highest subsided franchises in the country, even when it was a no growth franchise under Arriva. The amount of investment that is being obtained is incredible enough as it is - but there's only so much money you can throw at it.

The MKIVs and 170s still have plenty of life left in them, especially after the refurbs they're likely to get before they enter service. The 230s provide a bespoke solution for a rather unique line - which will be transformed with a doubling of its services. Everywhere else is seeing frequency improvements and a BRAND NEW FLEET!

After being held back for so long under Arriva, this is revolutionary.

 

[Llanigraham]

You're also talking about what was one of the highest subsided franchises in the country, even when it was a no growth franchise under Arriva. The amount of investment that is being obtained is incredible enough as it is - but there's only so much money you can throw at it.

The MKIVs and 170s still have plenty of life left in them, especially after the refurbs they're likely to get before they enter service. The 230s provide a bespoke solution for a rather unique line - which will be transformed with a doubling of its services. Everywhere else is seeing frequency improvements and a BRAND NEW FLEET!

After being held back for so long under Arriva, this is revolutionary.

Well said!!

 

[sprinterguy]

When I look at TfW’s fleet replacement strategy, with the 230s and 769s, it reminds me of a railway version of the kindly but slightly dotty women you see on the news from time to time who set up refuges for no hopers – 3 legged badgers, hedgehogs without spines, etc. If it’s not quite right then TfW will give it a home.

The 230s and 769s are a response to the urgency of Pacer replacement. They'll be a negligible drop in the ocean against the large fleets of brand new stock in a few years time.

 

[tbtc]

Well I'd say going from a fleet compromising of 271 coaches and having 16,882 seat and ending up with a fleet of 480 coaches with 25,700 seats constitutes growth.

It looks like a big leap forward in capacity to me, but I guess some people are never going to be happy...

(also worth pointing out that some of the coaches replaced will be fifteen metre Pacer carriages)

I'm not a fan of the new franchise. It's a wasted opportunity and looks like it is being done on the cheap and with gimmicks such as 100m of street running in Cardiff bay for tram-trains

I wonder if that's partly a political power-grab... ensuring that the "Valley Lines" can be turned into a stand alone operation wholly accountable to Cardiff Bay, if Westminster ever try to argue about control of other lines in/around Wales

You're also talking about what was one of the highest subsided franchises in the country, even when it was a no growth franchise under Arriva. The amount of investment that is being obtained is incredible enough as it is - but there's only so much money you can throw at it.

The MKIVs and 170s still have plenty of life left in them, especially after the refurbs they're likely to get before they enter service. The 230s provide a bespoke solution for a rather unique line - which will be transformed with a doubling of its services. Everywhere else is seeing frequency improvements and a BRAND NEW FLEET!

After being held back for so long under Arriva, this is revolutionary.

In fairness to Arriva, the fleet size did increase by a reasonable amount under their stewardship - but with such a heavily subsidised franchise, it's not surprising that Arriva didn't take big commercial risks - I don't think anyone would have - people should blame the politicians but I guess a "bus" company are an easy scapegoat

 

[S-Bahn]

Secondly, the long distance fleet. A fleet of mainly two carriage trains with some three carriage ones? That’s like - no capacity growth whatsoever, when it’s badly needed on Manchester to Milford and Holyhead to Cardiff services. And even worse - the renders I’ve seen show ironing board seats and NO END DOORS.

So not only do we get no upgrade in capacity but a downgrade in seating and now a commuter style door layout that will bring in drafts and noise at every station call.

Sorry, but I’m not at all optimistic about this fleet replacement. What do you think?

I've mentioned this before, but why have they not gone loco-hauled for all North-South Services?

The Mk4's being retired by LNER would be a reasonable short term solution, hauled by new order bi-mode Class 88's. TFW are planing on acquiring a small number for the Premier service - why not all?

Or go all out and buy the new Mk5's from CAF and haul with a class 88, similar to TPE.

Instead they are procuring Civity's? Why?

 

[sd0733]

Or go all our and buy the new Mk5's from CAF and haul with a class 88.

I think it's more the 2 premier services are to be loco hauled and they are just using the stock a little more to save a couple of DMUs being ordered IMO
The loco sets are having to miss out quite a few stops in order to keep timings at both ends of the route.

The bi-mode capability of an 88 would be a total waste on Cardiff-Holyhead. Once you get past Newport there are no more wires and then running the other 95% of the route with a very low powered diesel, the engines are last mile really not for doing most of the mileage.

 

[Cardiff123]

The 230s and 769s are a response to the urgency of Pacer replacement. They'll be a negligible drop in the ocean against the large fleets of brand new stock in a few years time.

What is exactly 'urgent' about the 769s? TfW have admitted in the latest issue of RAIL magazine that they have given up confirming a date for when their 769s will start driver training and enter passenger service. No date either for when TfW will get the other 7 x 769s delivered to them.

The Mk 4 introduction is also delayed due to gauging issues and so TfW are looking to extend the use of the Mk 3 sets into 2020 with derogations.

 

[anthony263]

I can see tfw needed to get derogations for the 143s at least

 

[Caaardiff]

Given the requirement for accessible toilets and PRM mods on UK trains, it's surprising to see this wasn't an issue during the Franchise tender process. That being said, there must be a serious back up. Toilets at stations currently are often locked up when there's no staff on duty. So that either means leaving toilets open when not staffed, running the risk of vandalism, or increasing staffing at these call point stations.
There are probably endless scenarios about when people might need to use the facilities. There people with medical conditions, often needing quick access to facilities. There's the weekend revellers, match/event days. What happens if the line is shut or train breaks down in between stations? Look at the flooding in the valleys recently where trains were stranded for hours. It could become an interesting situation if these scenarios arise.

Also the statement that people can leave the train and catch the next one. What happens if you have children, buggies, luggage in tow? What about families and groups, will the whole party need to leave the train for one person to use the toilet? It's not an ideal situation.
Edinburghs tram network for example runs from the Airport to the City Centre, has no facilities, but only takes 37 minutes.

As for capacity, services will be increased in frequency over additional capacity on trains, so should balance out. Services from Treherbert, Merthyr & Aberdare will go from 2 per hour to 4 per hour, as a result from Pontypridd will means 12 trains per hour.

In terms of new fleet, there will be 51 2x car and 26 3x car CAF Civity in the fleet. Compare that to the current long distance fleet of 24x 2 car 158's, 11 2x car 175 and 16 3x car 175, there's a big difference. The 2 cars will likely be seen in 4 car formation on the Cambrian and where 4 cars is required on other routes. I can't see 5 car formations being regular as there's some stations that will be too long for. With the increase in services from South-North, 3 car units should do fine.

 

[Fincra5]

Do any trams have Toilets on? For thats what a Tram-Train is, a tram. You don't see the Class 399s on the Sheffield Supertram services to Rotherham having Toilets.

 

[S-Bahn]

I think it's more the 2 premier services are to be loco hauled and they are just using the stock a little more to save a couple of DMUs being ordered IMO
The loco sets are having to miss out quite a few stops in order to keep timings at both ends of the route.

The bi-mode capability of an 88 would be a total waste on Cardiff-Holyhead. Once you get past Newport there are no more wires and then running the other 95% of the route with a very low powered diesel, the engines are last mile really not for doing most of the mileage.

Point taken on the bi-mode, Although the 68 is still in production, so loco-hauled is still a valid solution.

 

[anamyd]

Point taken on the bi-mode, Although the 68 is still in production, so loco-hauled is still a valid solution.

Why is this even being talked about...? It's not happening!

 

[sprinterguy]

What is exactly 'urgent' about the 769s? TfW have admitted in the latest issue of RAIL magazine that they have given up confirming a date for when their 769s will start driver training and enter passenger service. No date either for when TfW will get the other 7 x 769s delivered to them.

The Mk 4 introduction is also delayed due to gauging issues and so TfW are looking to extend the use of the Mk 3 sets into 2020 with derogations.

Well, I never claimed that rolling stock introduction was going entirely according to plan at the moment.

 

[Neptune]

Bear in mind there are plenty of spare 67’s compared to 68’s then retaining the 67’s makes sense.

 

[S-Bahn]

Why is this even being talked about...? It's not happening!

Arriva ran limited loco-hauled services between the North and South.
TFW are acquiring Mk4's to do the same and replacing the current 175's with CAF DMU's

It's a valid point - when replacing the 175's that are the mainstay of this route, why are they being downgraded to Civity commuter trains, rather than being upgraded to loco hauled (or an intercity DMU) for what could be considered an Intercity service (Swansea/Cardiff to Manchester/Liverpool/Holyhead).

After all, TPE are upgrading from 185 DMU's to IET's and loco-hauled Mk5's. TFW state they are adding a 1st class service between Swansea and Manchester.

That is entirely in keeping with the titled of the thread "Could TFWs fleet replacement be a disaster?"

 

[Robertj21a]

Given the requirement for accessible toilets and PRM mods on UK trains, it's surprising to see this wasn't an issue during the Franchise tender process. That being said, there must be a serious back up. Toilets at stations currently are often locked up when there's no staff on duty. So that either means leaving toilets open when not staffed, running the risk of vandalism, or increasing staffing at these call point stations.
There are probably endless scenarios about when people might need to use the facilities. There people with medical conditions, often needing quick access to facilities. There's the weekend revellers, match/event days. What happens if the line is shut or train breaks down in between stations? Look at the flooding in the valleys recently where trains were stranded for hours. It could become an interesting situation if these scenarios arise.

Also the statement that people can leave the train and catch the next one. What happens if you have children, buggies, luggage in tow? What about families and groups, will the whole party need to leave the train for one person to use the toilet? It's not an ideal situation.
Edinburghs tram network for example runs from the Airport to the City Centre, has no facilities, but only takes 37 minutes.

As for capacity, services will be increased in frequency over additional capacity on trains, so should balance out. Services from Treherbert, Merthyr & Aberdare will go from 2 per hour to 4 per hour, as a result from Pontypridd will means 12 trains per hour.

In terms of new fleet, there will be 51 2x car and 26 3x car CAF Civity in the fleet. Compare that to the current long distance fleet of 24x 2 car 158's, 11 2x car 175 and 16 3x car 175, there's a big difference. The 2 cars will likely be seen in 4 car formation on the Cambrian and where 4 cars is required on other routes. I can't see 5 car formations being regular as there's some stations that will be too long for. With the increase in services from South-North, 3 car units should do fine.

I understand that the longest tram trip will be about 50 mins. Presumably, anyone who might need a toilet will go before they catch the tram, just as they would if they caught a bus (often for over 50 mins).