FCC Notice of intention to prosecute

[sheff1]

I've just managed to come on here for the first time today and this is the first thread I've read. I have to say that I am disgusted at the attitude shown by several (most) of the posters on here

Most of you have just skimmed the first post and seen "sat in first class with standard class ticket" and assumed that the OP was asking whether anything could be done about that situation. You all ought to be ashamed of yourselves. He has admitted he did wrong, explained he wants to pay the penalty, and is bemused because there appears to be a conflict between what he thought he'd said at the time and what FCC seem to believe he's said.

I wouldn't say I was disgusted, but certainly agree with the thrust of Mike's comment. There is no need for a 'hang them high' attitude - the OP said:

.. I'm not denying I was at fault. What I do think is wrong though is the fact I was given the option, I said I wouldpay the fine and then a few days letter they tell me they want to take me to court. If they had said I was going to court all along I wouldn't have a problem.

Of course, without being there, no one here knows who said what to whom, but the OP clearly believes he was given an option. Equally clearly, FCC are perfectly entitled to prosecute if they wish.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I've only ever been in trouble once and it was when i fell asleep on a service to doncaster from sheffield, i woke up in hull. Conductor let me off cos he saw me asleep and then forgot to wake me up.

Anyway if what you say about what they say is true just ring them and argue your case. And i'm sure on application you state what criminal record is, a company isnt gonna care too much if you once did this. its not robbery

and just to addd suicide is never an option, in my opinion and a bit harsh it may be its a easy way out

 

[notadriver]

Hello all. I read this thread with interest. Something similar happened to me a a year or so ago.

Back then my job was a conductor for a well known TOC. I was off duty at the time and not in uniform. Like the OP i made straight for 1st class at the rear of the train but with the intention of finding the conductor working the service and thus being allowed to sit in "the office" as we called it.

The train in question was one of the ones worked by our depot. The conductor and driver come off an inbound service to work the train in question but on this occasion the inbound service was running around 30 minutes late. There are no spare crew available at that time of night and hence noone on the train available to make an announcement. Sat across from me in first class unknown to me was a revenue inspector. I heard him on the phone requesting the assistance of his colleagues to back him up and check 1st class as he was sure that I didn't have a ticket. I of course had a standard class staff pass.

He was still on his own and demanded to see my ticket. I refused. I said "well you're sat in first class as well, where is your authority?". He then showed me his revenue ID. I turned round and told him the guard for this train had not arrived and he therefore had no authority to check first class without the guards permission. I then flashed him my staff pass covering my name so i couldn't get in trouble. Bearing in mind this was after 2300 on a Saturday night, the jobsworth then called the police to have me removed from the train!

It was around this time that the inbound train arrived. The guard came straight over and made the usual PA announcements apologising for late running. I also greeted him and he of course said i could sit where i wanted as he is a colleague on the same shift and in my own depot.

There was of course no apology from the bloody overzealous Revenue Protection Inspector who left the train.

I'm quite furious to be honest. I know(knew) most of the country revenue inspectors and often work together but the ones who work in London (and in plain clothes) are something else. They will often check tickets without telling the guard they are doing so

 

[yorkie]

I knew it was first class and I know I was in the wrong but often taking late trains I didn't expect a ticket inspector to come through the train. Well he did, with a few British Transport cops. I was told I would be issued a penalty fare in the region of £82 (I can't remember the exact amount). I initially said I wouldn't pay but after hearing my options of either going to court or paying the fine I choose to pay the fine.

Hmm, is this an admission that you sat in First Class, knowingly, with no intention to pay the First Class fare?

BTW, a penalty fare is a fare, not a fine. (Yes, it is seen by many to be a fine in all but name, but let's leave that aside for now!) A FCC Only First Class fare is £41.50, so £82 is the correct 'fare' if you sit in First Class and pay for the privilege on board (as a PF is twice the single fare).

If you had said you didn't realise it was FC, and/or had paid the £82, you'd not have been prosecuted IMO. However as you have stated that you refuse to pay the fare, and indicated you had no intention of paying it, then they can prosecute.

They will need to prove that you intended to avoid payment of the FC fare. From what you have said on this forum, you appear to admit that is the case. If you admitted that to them, they have an excellent case.

I was told that I would have three weeks to pay the fine and the copper and inspector took down my details. Now I've just receieved a letter telling me FCC intend to take me to court.

What did they issue you, you should have been given some sort of receipt or copy for your records? They can either give you time to pay the penalty fare (not fine) or they can prosecute and ask a court to fine you and, more importantly, rule you out of many job opportunities.

What the hell is going on here? I phoned them up straight away and was told penalty fares are normally paid on the spot. Why was I not informed of this on the train.

If you were issued with a PF, then it doesn't matter if you pay later. It sounds like an MG11 form was completed rather than a PF? what were you given? Can you scan it in and PM it to me?

I've sent the enclosed form back telling them my side of the story.

If you admitted that you knew that you were sat in FC and had no intention of paying £82 then your 'side of the story' is effectively an admission of guilt, in which case the answer to your next question is...

Does anyone know what the likely otcome is? The last thing I wanted was for this to go to court.

Cheers

.. that you will probably* be found guilty.

However, if you did not admit the above to them, and can get a good, experienced (in railway ticketing matters), lawyer then you can quite possibly get out of it.

You don't have a leg to stand on sorry!
You had a standard class ticket in first, if they want to prosecute you then that's their prerogative. Harsh perhaps (seeing as you could have just been penalty fared) but those is the rules.

No, they can't prosecute 'just' for sitting in First! However given his admissions to us, that's what means they can. It's not a case of 'you could have just been PFd' it appears he was initially PFd but whatever he said after the offer of a PF was made, changed their mind, as he appears to show intent.

So did you pay the fine? tbh if you knowingly sit in a designated 1st class area, you are inviting this upon your self. You cannot take the risk of 'there may be a RPi onboard, there may be not' attitude.

What fine? You complain about the media getting things wrong...

I know I was in the wrong, I'm not denying that.

What matters is whether you are admitting to sitting in First Class, knowingly, with no intention to pay the FC fare. It appears from the above that you admit that. In which case, you are admitting guilt. You would have been better off shoplifting in the eyes of the law.

However, I was given an option of taking the matter to court or paying the penalty fare.

No, you won't be given such an option, at least you shouldn't be. But if you were initially charged a PF and you then refused to pay it, then admitted you knew it was FC and had no intention to pay for it, then that's enough evidence to prosecute, clearly. In other words, if you had simply paid the £82 and not talked yourself into a prosecution, you'd not be in this situation.

I didn't realise you pay the fine on the spot as the inspector never told me this. I assumed I would recieve a letter in the post and then have the option to either go to court or pay the fine.

No-one can 'fine' you on the spot. A PF can be paid later.

Mate, I know I was stupid for sitting there. It was late, I was tired and I took the first seat I came too. I don't think I'm better than anyone, I take the train fairly often unfortunately and nearly always stand. This was a stupid little mistake.

If you had said "I sat down and didn't see whether it was First Class, the seats look the same (do they? If not you may find this harder to justify!)" you may have a case, but you have admitted that you expected to get away with travelling First Class without paying for it, which is considered quite serious according to the laws of this country. If you disagree with that, take it up with your MP.

So why did they tell me I had an option?

Anyone know what the potential outcome of this will be? Fine? Criminal record?

It's probably something they say when people are getting awkward and they think they may have a case, or when people start saying things that 'drop them in it'. I doubt they came straight up to you and just offered you a straight choice. If you told them what you told us, you gave them enough evidence to deem that a PF was not appropriate. You are admitting intent to avoid payment.

PFs are NOT to be issued if there is good evidence of intent to avoid payment. Admitting you know you are 'wrong' to sit in FC and refusing to pay the fare, is about as clear evidence as you can give them!

The last thing I want is a criminal record that will stop me getting a job in the future over something so petty.

Then why didn't you pay the £82?

You're a lovely, caring bunch you lot.

I admit some people have been too harsh in the way they have responded, but I am pro-customer and I have to admit that you have a very difficult case to defend. I am going to be helpful: get a very good lawyer, and fast.

We are for people who genuinely make mistakes, are pleasant with our members, and who are in their position through no fault of their own.

Enjoy the potential crimmy rec and fine

No need for such comments. Let the law take its course. I am going to delete some of your posts shortly (I really shouldn't have to spend my time doing that).

One thing jumps out at me having read through all the posts so far, something that seems to have been completely ignored....

Yes, you're right, and there is confusion about what has happened here. He clearly has not been fined, and has not been PF'd either. An MG11 was completed.

Seems quite a few unsympathetic people here.

Let's look at things, OP gets gripped (correctly) for sitting in FC. He is tired, maybe a little 'under the influence'. He refuses to pay the Penalty Far possible because he doesn't have the money. Inspectors issue him with a Penalty notice (as they should??) I think you are given three weeks to pay? So why has the threat of court action happened so quickly??

Or he refused to pay and was issued with a unpaid fare notice? Again surely three weeks to pay?

Or am I missing something???

Have to say some people on here are a right 'self righteous' lot. I wish I was as perfect as you?!!!

I think what you are missing is that he admitted he knew it was FC and thought he'd get away with it, then was asked for the 'correct' fare (whether you agree with it or not, is £82. I think that's a bit OTT but that's beside the point) and he refused to pay it. If he had stated he had not realised it was FC, they would have struggled to prove it in court, but he has admitted he knew it was FC, and if he had paid the fare when asked, I doubt they'd be prosecuting either.

I was given asolutely nothing by the inspector. I gave him my driving licence, he took down my details, I signed the form and I was told I had three weeks to pay the penalty fare.

If you were issued a fare (Penalty Fare or Unpaid Fares Notice) then you should get a copy. I have no idea if you should get a copy if an MG11 (witness statement for FCC to decide whether or not to prosecute) is completed, I suggest you contact FCC and ask them. Perhaps a guard/RIP here will know?

As for MikeWh's comments - he has a point. There is no need for posts of glee celebrating cessna's downfall. He has asked us for advice. So why aren't more people explaining he has not been fined, advising him to get a good lawyer, and just generally posting useful information? You don't have to agree with what he did to post sensibly!

If you don't know what a fine or a PF is, which some people don't, why post just to have a pop at the OP? It achieves nothing and makes this place look unwelcoming, which I think is most unrepresentative as I'm normally delighted with the advice we are providing to people here.

(* I am not a lawyer, but if you go to the court admitting what you admitted here, and given that TOCs only prosecute where there is more of a chance of success than failure, I think I can say "probably". I would not say you "do not have a leg to stand on" and would strongly advise you get a really good lawyer experienced in this field to have a chance. I wish you good luck as I don't think your life should be ruined for this, £82 should be sufficient. Call FCC tomorrow and offer to pay, if they decline, get a lawyer fast)

 

[transportphoto]

If you had said "I sat down and didn't see whether it was First Class, the seats look the same (do they? If not you may find this harder to justify!)" you may have a case, but you have admitted that you expected to get away with travelling First Class without paying for it, which is considered quite serious according to the laws of this country. If you disagree with that, take it up with your MP.

Last time I traveled on a FCC 365 (haven't read the full details of this problem) the sliding doors into the FC compartment have a huge sign on them explaining that this area is for FC tickets holders and a brief description of the penalties should you not comply.

 

[yorkie]

Just wondering, can a criminal record affect your life?

If you want a job that requires an enhanced check, you'll never be able to hide a conviction for fare evasion from them even if 'spent'. In today's job market, that can be serious.

I am a worrying type, so occasionally I have a nightmare while I am sleeping where I am travelling on a train and realise I have lost my ticket. I then get a criminal record and then kill myself because it ruins my life!

This has happened to me, nearly all guards are helpful and can tell when you are genuine. Also if they prosecuted you, you could then probably show receipts etc, find the original ticket, get witnesses, etc... they may struggle to secure a conviction. They have to show intent to avoid payment.

In my (waking) life I have occasionally found myself searching all my bags for my ticket, and almost having a heart attack until I find it, fearing a criminal record if I can't find it.

I think that the rules are too strict, and the laws are too harsh, but I think you are worrying far too much. I'd love to see someone taking ATOC to court for making rail travel too stressful due to complicated tickets and strict rules, and for the bullying tactics the TOCs use that make some people have panic attacks when they lose their ticket. I have no idea if such a case might succeed, probably not sadly.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Last time I traveled on a FCC 365 (haven't read the full details of this problem) the sliding doors into the FC compartment have a huge sign on them explaining that this area is for FC tickets holders and a brief description of the penalties should you not comply.

Yes I think so too. It would be easier to argue that case on Southern/SET I believe, some FC areas are identical to SC (2+2 seating in each, same seats etc). In any case it is utterly irrelevant for this particular discussion as the OP has admitted he knew it was FC and admitted that he both didn't expect to be asked to pay, didn't intend to pay either. I was really just saying that if he hadn't realised and could reasonably claim that FC looked like SC, he'd then have a good case.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Had the OP gone into a shop and walked out with this value of goods because he didn't think there would be a security guard at that time that would have been theft.

Analogies are always tricky, but I'd say the equivalent may be going to a restaurant where you pay for the food up front, then get to self-serve your meal, and you get a premium meal when you only paid for a standard one. The standard meal costs £26, and the premium meal £41.50. However the rules say that if you pick the wrong meal in error you must pay twice the price of it. A restaurant inspector finds you with the wrong meal and says your £26 meal payment is invalid and you have to now pay twice the premium meal, this is £82, making the food bill come to a total of £108. The customer then admits he knew it was wrong to pick the wrong meal, and then the manager decides not to charge an extra £82 but to submit a request to take the customer to court over intending to consume a larger meal than was paid for, the fine for which is likely to be £82 but more importantly a criminal record.

Of course, in reality the restaurant would just charge you the upgrade. As would train companies that don't operate PFs (e.g. you sit in FC on Virgin or ECC with the same fares above, and you'd be asked for £15.50) the problem is that there are train companies that do not have regular ticket checks and work on a system whereby checks are very rare so when they do find you without a ticket they can't just excess you, and instead they have to charge a disproportionate amount of money as a 'deterrent'. Of course the OP knows that if he did this on EC the guard would likely come round and he would pay the fare and EC do allow full-fare tickets (e.g. First Anytime in this case) to be bought (or upgraded to). But with FCC he knows that a check is rare, and their policy is not to sell fares on board (unlike Virgin, EC etc) and was expecting to get away with it on the basis of not being checked.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

What fine? You complain about the media getting things wrong...

No need for such comments. Let the law take its course. I am going to delete some of your posts shortly (I really shouldn't have to spend my time doing that).

1 - I have stated that I mistyped the word 'fare' for 'fine'. And there's a big difference between me and the media.

2 - In that case there is no need for the poster above me who left exactly the same remark. Could you also let me know which posts you delete.

 

[cessna]

Few things to clear up. Firstly, I don't know anything about trains but I believe this train was an older type where the first class section was in the middle of the coach with standard seating areas at either end. There were no doors you had to go through to enter first class.

The main point I want to clear up is that I didn't refuse to pay. I admit when I heard how much the penalty fare was I said "I'm not paying that". It was a rash comment which I didn't mean. I was told to stand up by the copper and the three of us stood in the doorway. I was then told I could either go to court or pay a penalty fare. I made it clear that I would pay the fare. I was never asked to pay the fare then and there on the spot. I assumed it was the same as a speeding ticket where you recieve a letter in the post and send a cheque off.

I guessing as soon as I said "I'm not paying that" the ticket inspector took that as my final decision. The cop was a lot more understanding and I'm confident he knew I wanted to take the fine.

 

[yorkie]

Hello all. I read this thread with interest. Something similar happened to me a a year or so ago.

Back then my job was a conductor for a well known TOC. I was off duty at the time and not in uniform. Like the OP i made straight for 1st class at the rear of the train but with the intention of finding the conductor working the service and thus being allowed to sit in "the office" as we called it.

The train in question was one of the ones worked by our depot. The conductor and driver come off an inbound service to work the train in question but on this occasion the inbound service was running around 30 minutes late. There are no spare crew available at that time of night and hence noone on the train available to make an announcement. Sat across from me in first class unknown to me was a revenue inspector. I heard him on the phone requesting the assistance of his colleagues to back him up and check 1st class as he was sure that I didn't have a ticket. I of course had a standard class staff pass.

He was still on his own and demanded to see my ticket. I refused. I said "well you're sat in first class as well, where is your authority?". He then showed me his revenue ID. I turned round and told him the guard for this train had not arrived and he therefore had no authority to check first class without the guards permission. I then flashed him my staff pass covering my name so i couldn't get in trouble. Bearing in mind this was after 2300 on a Saturday night, the jobsworth then called the police to have me removed from the train!

It was around this time that the inbound train arrived. The guard came straight over and made the usual PA announcements apologising for late running. I also greeted him and he of course said i could sit where i wanted as he is a colleague on the same shift and in my own depot.

There was of course no apology from the bloody overzealous Revenue Protection Inspector who left the train.

I'm quite furious to be honest. I know(knew) most of the country revenue inspectors and often work together but the ones who work in London (and in plain clothes) are something else. They will often check tickets without telling the guard they are doing so

That's shocking. But it backs up what I believe: the vast majority of guards/conductors are very good, the bad ones get the publicity but that doesn't change that. However the same cannot be said of RPIs, sadly. Of course, there are many good RPIs (there are some on this forum, and I don't want to upset them! ) but can you honestly say that a bad RPI is rare? Sadly not! But that's because TOCs like FCC who employ RPIs who are intending to catch out as many people as they possibly can, go for people who are going to have the sort of attitude you describe sadly.

Note that when I talk about RPIs, I do not mean the staff who patrol trains on SPT for example - I see them more as conductors, although I know their duties are only revenue. But their job is to sell tickets, not to 'catch people out'.

I much prefer travelling by train up north, where a (usually) friendly guard checks tickets frequently, rather than suburban services in the South East, where you rarely see on-board staff except once a blue moon where they are out to get you - yes YOU - for anything they possibly can.

I am therefore totally opposed to Penalty Fares and Driver only trains (I will accept what happens on SPT is fine; I don't see them as driver only, although I recognise they are officially DOO).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
cessna: these people may be able to help you... http://www.penaltyfareappeal.co.uk/support/

 

[DaveNewcastle]

. . . . However as you have stated that you refuse to pay the fare, and indicated you had no intention of paying it, then they can prosecute
. . . .
If you admitted that you knew that you were sat in FC and had no intention of paying £82 then your 'side of the story' is effectively an admission of guilt, in which case the answer to your next question is...

.. that you will probably* be found guilty.

However, if you did not admit the above to them, and can get a good, experienced (in railway ticketing matters), lawyer then you can quite possibly get out of it.

. . . .

Call FCC tomorrow and offer to pay, if they decline, get a lawyer fast)

Based on the evidence available, I'm struggling to see how any "specialist" lawyer could offer any more assistance than any high street general practitioner in commercial law.
The only grounds I can think of would be a technicality in the evidence, and sadly, we haven't seen any evidence.
If, perhaps, the staff concerned made some error or ommission in procedure and/or serving notice, then there may be grounds to challenge the fare.

I am inclined to agree with the majority on here who recognise that the passenger was given an opportunity to correct the error of travelling in the wrong class of accommodation (by paying) but refused that offer. And, as far as I can follow the story, has continued to refuse to pay for the service provided.
Crucially, the OP has not provided any evidence to explain why the fare demanded is incorrect.
I suspect that only a simple technicality in the paperwork (such as the wrong date or train ID) might avoid prosecution, or, as advised, stops this persistent and unsubstantiated refusal to pay.

I regret that some of the responses in this thread appear to be no more than the first thought that pops into the head of some posters. Its hard to make an informed analysis from such hasty responses; please try to distinguish some of the mindless and the immature responses from those that have some basis before making any decision.

 

[radamfi]

I've noticed on Southern that security guards (or at least staff wearing Meteor uniforms) seem to be doing RPI style checks. Are they fully fledged RPIs that can issue penalty fares or UFNs?

Do other TOCs do this?

Does that mean Southern no longer have their own RPIs?

 

[cessna]

I'm not refusing to pay!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Is nobody listening to me?!?!?!? I was asked if I have means to pay the penalty fare. I said YES. How is that refusing to pay?

 

[DaveNewcastle]

. . . How is that refusing to pay?

The technical language is that you "have failed to pay". And as each day passes in which you don't pay, it is evidence of refusal.

I'm sorry that it sounds hard, but that's how a challenge based on non-payment works. If payment isn't received, then its called "failure to pay" and if the means of paying is available, then it can be called "refusal".

 

[cessna]

I haven't been given a chance to pay. This is my point. I was expecting the letter in the post to be instructions to pay the penalty fare.

 

[yorkie]

I'm not refusing to pay!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Is nobody listening to me?!?!?!? I was asked if I have means to pay the penalty fare. I said YES. How is that refusing to pay?

The problem is you initially said that (when originally asked to pay a PF), and I think FCC are holding that against you and I reckon it got the RPI into the mood for a battle.

Let's look at the facts:
1You sat in a first class seat with a standard ticket, taking the risk that an RPI wouldn't come through.
2They did, and with 2 policemen, you got caught
3You were offered a penalty fare, or court straight away.
4You choose the penalty fare, but didn't pay it within the required time.
5Now you are being prosecuted.

I don't really see what FCC did wrong here?

I don't think these are all 'facts'. I have numbered each statement. 3 and 4 are dubious

3 I think it was a case of a PF initially but when he initially said "I'm not paying that" it became prosecution, however the RPI appears not to have informed the OP that this was happening and then gave him a choice but didn't actually give him his chosen choice, perhaps because of the OP's admissions.

4 I don't think he got a PF, and as we have established it hasn't been 21 days yet. If he did get a PF they would not be prosecuting at this stage, and he should have been given a copy of the PF.

1, 2 & 5 I agree are likely to be facts.

 

[Railjet]

I must admit I'm absolutely gobsmacked by some of the comments coming through here, especially from an administrator and a couple of moderators, who generally provide such wise and incisive comment.

So flopping down in a first class seat with a second class ticket brands you as a criminal? What a load of bunkum. Why is it so difficult for the British in a position of authority to take a reasoned, common sense approach, instead of adopting a high-handed attitude all the time? If this happened in most (if not all) other European countries I have travelled in, the ticket inspector would say - probably with a smile - that you can move into second class, or you will be charged the difference.

Unfortunately, judging by some of the comments in this thread, these forums run the risk of being taken over by high-minded, hypocritical posters, who of course have never broken any rule in their lives, but take great pleasure in seeing other people being hauled over the coals for minor infractions.

We need a bit more of "live and let live" in this country, for God's sake.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

This is going to be my last post on this thread because I don't think I can help any further without any more information.

First, I'll repeat. You evidentially "refuse to pay" by having said that you wouldn't, and evidentially, you still have not paid.
That will be used as a matter of fact against you, if necessary; it will also be explained that the Company has offices open for business in many places and at many times and possibly also has staffed offices with telephone access able to take Debit Card payments over many hours a day.
And yet still your payment has not been received.
Are YOU LISTENING???? That is the evidence that will be presented against you if you persist in this non-payment.

I don't think these are all 'facts'. I have numbered each statement. 3 and 4 are dubious

3 I think it was a case of a PF initially but when he initially said "I'm not paying that" it became prosecution, however the RPI appears not to have informed the OP that this was happening and then gave him a choice but didn't actually give him his chosen choice, perhaps because of the OP's admissions.

4 I don't think he got a PF, and as we have established it hasn't been 21 days yet. If he did get a PF they would not be prosecuting at this stage, and he should have been given a copy of the PF.

As I said above, we haven't been supplied with the evidence which might enable us to interpret these doubts.
If the OP can't provide us with that evidence, then he won't be able to provide a lawyer with them either.

The only hope I hold out if the OP persists in not paying is that a Court is obliged to agree to disclosure of copies of any evidence which the prosecution intend to produce, so if they're not available now, then they will be available later, though propable too late to prepare a counter defence.

If the OP doesn't pay then there's nothing else I can add to this thread.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

railjet ^^^^^^^^^ I think its the fact that Britain's railways tend to just see money . TM I think would tend to request they move, from what I've seen of RPIs (we don't have them up here!) most of them tend to be stricter

 

[cessna]

I don't know what else to say now to be honest. I've admitted I made a mistake and I'm trying to sort it out. I'm not looking for pitty but is it really fair that for the rest of my life I could possibly have a criminal record, preventing me from getting future work, all because I sat in a first class seat with a standard class ticket late one Thursday night? I feel like some of the people here are putting me in the same bracket as muggers and rapists.

 

[yorkie]

I must admit I'm absolutely gobsmacked by some of the comments coming through here, especially from an administrator and a couple of moderators, who generally provide such wise and incisive comment.

Which of my comments are you gobsmacked by?

So flopping down in a first class seat with a second class ticket brands you as a criminal?

Yes, it can, if you show intent to avoid paying the first class fare, a court could find you guilty of fare evasion and give you a criminal record.

What a load of bunkum. Why is it so difficult for the British in a position of authority to take a reasoned, common sense approach, instead of adopting a high-handed attitude all the time?

I have not stated I agree with the system, I am just trying to provide constructive replies.

If this happened in most (if not all) other European countries I have travelled in, the ticket inspector would say - probably with a smile - that you can move into second class, or you will be charged the difference.

But I did say earlier that if you sat down in FC on, for example, EC or Virgin you'd be charged an excess, ie the difference.

But travelling on FCC is rather different and Penalty Fares apply. I did say I don't agree with Penalty Fares, but I did give reasons why they exist. I do not agree with those reasons but that is irrelevant to the OP's predicament.

Unfortunately, judging by some of the comments in this thread, these forums run the risk of being taken over by high-minded, hypocritical posters, who of course have never broken any rule in their lives, but take great pleasure in seeing other people being hauled over the coals for minor infractions.

We need a bit more of "live and let live" in this country, for God's sake.

Yes, we do run that risk. Yes, some of the comments are inappropriate and I have issued a plea above for such comments not to be made (I've also removed a few), but I really do not think that it is fair to include the posts by the forum staff, plus various other people who have replied constructively, in that category.

 

[talltim]

My impression from the OPs post is not that he has refused to pay, but that he was waiting for communication telling him how to pay. He certainly hasn't said he is refusing to pay and also has said that he beleived that he had another (just under) 2 weeks to pay.
Whether he understood the message from the RPI correctly is another matter, but judging by many replies here, it seems quite easy to misinterpret/ignore what was actually said.

 

[90019]

First, I'll repeat. You evidentially "refuse to pay" by having said that you wouldn't, and evidentially, you still have not paid.

But how can you pay when you don't know who you're actually supposed to be paying and have been given no instructions on what you're supposed to do?

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I said I wouldn't post any more unless we got some more facts. But this deserves some clarification of anything does:-

. . . . is it really fair that for the rest of my life I could possibly have a criminal record, preventing me from getting future work, all because I sat in a first class seat with a standard class ticket late one Thursday night?

No.
That wouldn't be fair.
But that's not what you'd be prosecuted for.
Its nothing to do with a Thursday night.
Nor First and Second class seats.
Its because you haven't paid.
And you still haven't paid.
And instead of replying on here you could have tried telephoning the Rail Company to see if they can take your payment from a Debit Card (as I suggested), but no. You STILL haven't paid.
That's the problem you're faced with.
You have a debt. You haven't paid it. And you STILL haven't paid it. And the clock is ticking with the debt remaining as it is: unpaid.
And that's what might lead to a life-long record.

So - why prolong it and let it get any worse?
Pick up the phone. Discuss it. And Pay!

 

[talltim]

So - why prolong it and let it get any worse?
Pick up the phone. Discuss it. And Pay!

Agreed, although knowing how is the key

 

[cessna]

I don't know who to pay or how to pay. I've not been given any information.
I was expecting the letter I opened today to detail how to pay the fare.

I've only seen this letter this afternoon and I've called the prosecutions dept. who told me to put it in writing, which I have done. I sent the letter back within two hours of reading it.

 

[EltonRoad]

Good grief! He came on here asking for advice on what to do, and now he's being told his problem is that he's not paying up.

1) He said he would pay the fare, when on the train.

2) The next he heard was a letter from the TOC stating intention to prosecute.

As far as I can make out, he has not even been given the option of paying.

Yes, he could phone up the TOC and discuss whether paying up will get him out of having to go to court, but I really don't see this as a deliberate avoidance of payment, and I cannot see how anyone can reach this conclusion. He simply doesn't want a criminal record and does want to pay the fine, but doesn't know how to or even if he can.

The main point I want to clear up is that I didn't refuse to pay. I admit when I heard how much the penalty fare was I said "I'm not paying that". It was a rash comment which I didn't mean. I was told to stand up by the copper and the three of us stood in the doorway. I was then told I could either go to court or pay a penalty fare. I made it clear that I would pay the fare. I was never asked to pay the fare then and there on the spot. I assumed it was the same as a speeding ticket where you recieve a letter in the post and send a cheque off.

 

[cessna]

Good grief! He came on here asking for advice on what to do, and now he's being told his problem is that he's not paying up.

1) He said he would pay the fare, when on the train.

2) The next he heard was a letter from the TOC stating intention to prosecute.

As far as I can make out, he has not even been given the option of paying.

Yes, he could phone up the TOC and discuss whether paying up will get him out of having to go to court, but I really don't see this as a deliberate avoidance of payment, and I cannot see how anyone can reach this conclusion. He simply doesn't want a criminal record and does want to pay the fine, but doesn't know how to or even if he can.

Thank you for saying what I've been trying to get across for so long.

 

[John @ home]

It seems likely to me that a "Notice of intention to prosecute" is just that - a document giving Notice that at some future moment the author will seek to ensure that a prosecution takes place.

The only reason for sending such a Notice would be to increase the likelihood that some other event will occur prior to that moment which would make prosecution unnecessary, such as payment of the amount due.

It may well be that the way to avoid prosecution is described in the detail of the Notice received by cessna.

 

[b0b]

I've only seen this letter this afternoon and I've called the prosecutions dept. who told me to put it in writing, which I have done. I sent the letter back within two hours of reading it.

Hopefully you didn't admit in writing either that you knew you were sitting in first class and that you were not willing to pay the fare, or now they have a written confession!

 

[EltonRoad]

Hopefully you didn't admit in writing either that you knew you were sitting in first class and that you were not willing to pay the fare, or now they have a written confession!

Why would he say that when he, quote, made it clear that he would pay the fare?