I knew it was first class and I know I was in the wrong but often taking late trains I didn't expect a ticket inspector to come through the train. Well he did, with a few British Transport cops. I was told I would be issued a penalty fare in the region of £82 (I can't remember the exact amount). I initially said I wouldn't pay but after hearing my options of either going to court or paying the fine I choose to pay the fine.
Hmm, is this an admission that you sat in First Class, knowingly, with no intention to pay the First Class fare?
BTW, a penalty fare is a fare, not a fine. (Yes, it is
seen by many to be a fine in all but name, but let's leave that aside for now!) A FCC Only First Class fare is £41.50, so £82 is the correct 'fare' if you sit in First Class and pay for the privilege on board (as a PF is twice the single fare).
If you had said you didn't realise it was FC, and/or had paid the £82, you'd not have been prosecuted IMO. However as you have stated that you refuse to pay the fare, and indicated you had no intention of paying it, then they can prosecute.
They will need to prove that you intended to avoid payment of the FC fare. From what you have said on this forum, you appear to admit that is the case. If you admitted that to them, they have an excellent case.
I was told that I would have three weeks to pay the fine and the copper and inspector took down my details. Now I've just receieved a letter telling me FCC intend to take me to court.
What did they issue you, you should have been given some sort of receipt or copy for your records? They can either give you time to pay the penalty fare (not fine) or they can prosecute and ask a court to fine you and, more importantly, rule you out of many job opportunities.
What the hell is going on here? I phoned them up straight away and was told penalty fares are normally paid on the spot. Why was I not informed of this on the train.
If you were issued with a PF, then it doesn't matter if you pay later. It sounds like an MG11 form was completed rather than a PF? what were you given? Can you scan it in and PM it to me?
I've sent the enclosed form back telling them my side of the story.
If you admitted that you knew that you were sat in FC and had no intention of paying £82 then your 'side of the story' is effectively an admission of guilt, in which case the answer to your next question is...
Does anyone know what the likely otcome is? The last thing I wanted was for this to go to court.
Cheers
.. that you will probably* be found guilty.
However, if you did not admit the above to them, and can get a good, experienced (in railway ticketing matters), lawyer then you can quite possibly get out of it.
You don't have a leg to stand on sorry!
You had a standard class ticket in first, if they want to prosecute you then that's their prerogative. Harsh perhaps (seeing as you could have just been penalty fared) but those is the rules.
No, they can't prosecute '
just' for sitting in First! However given his admissions to us, that's what means they can. It's not a case of 'you could have just been PFd' it appears he was initially PFd but whatever he said after the offer of a PF was made, changed their mind, as he appears to show intent.
So did you pay the fine? tbh if you knowingly sit in a designated 1st class area, you are inviting this upon your self. You cannot take the risk of 'there may be a RPi onboard, there may be not' attitude.
What fine? You complain about the media getting things wrong...
I know I was in the wrong, I'm not denying that.
What matters is whether you are admitting to sitting in First Class, knowingly, with no intention to pay the FC fare. It appears from the above that you admit that. In which case, you are admitting guilt. You would have been better off shoplifting in the eyes of the law.
However, I was given an option of taking the matter to court or paying the penalty fare.
No, you won't be given such an option, at least you shouldn't be. But if you were
initially charged a PF
and you then refused to pay it, then
admitted you knew it was FC and had no intention to pay for it, then that's enough evidence to prosecute, clearly. In other words, if you had simply paid the £82 and not talked yourself into a prosecution, you'd not be in this situation.
I didn't realise you pay the fine on the spot as the inspector never told me this. I assumed I would recieve a letter in the post and then have the option to either go to court or pay the fine.
No-one can 'fine' you on the spot. A PF can be paid later.
Mate, I know I was stupid for sitting there. It was late, I was tired and I took the first seat I came too. I don't think I'm better than anyone, I take the train fairly often unfortunately and nearly always stand. This was a stupid little mistake.
If you had said "I sat down and didn't see whether it was First Class, the seats look the same (
do they? If not you may find this harder to justify!)" you may have a case, but you have admitted that you expected to get away with travelling First Class without paying for it, which is considered quite serious according to the laws of this country. If you disagree with that, take it up with your MP.
So why did they tell me I had an option?
Anyone know what the potential outcome of this will be? Fine? Criminal record?
It's probably something they say when people are getting awkward and they think they may have a case, or when people start saying things that 'drop them in it'. I doubt they came straight up to you and just offered you a straight choice. If you told them what you told us, you gave them enough evidence to deem that a PF was not appropriate. You are admitting intent to avoid payment.
PFs are NOT to be issued if there is good evidence of intent to avoid payment. Admitting you know you are 'wrong' to sit in FC and refusing to pay the fare, is about as clear evidence as you can give them!
The last thing I want is a criminal record that will stop me getting a job in the future over something so petty.
Then why didn't you pay the £82?
You're a lovely, caring bunch you lot.
I admit some people have been too harsh in the way they have responded, but I am pro-customer and I have to admit that you have a very difficult case to defend. I am going to be helpful: get a very good lawyer, and fast.
We are for people who genuinely make mistakes, are pleasant with our members, and who are in their position through no fault of their own.
Enjoy the potential crimmy rec and fine
No need for such comments. Let the law take its course. I am going to delete some of your posts shortly (I really shouldn't have to spend my time doing that).
One thing jumps out at me having read through all the posts so far, something that seems to have been completely ignored....
Yes, you're right, and there is confusion about what has happened here. He clearly has not been fined, and has not been PF'd either. An MG11 was completed.
Seems quite a few unsympathetic people here.
Let's look at things, OP gets gripped (correctly) for sitting in FC. He is tired, maybe a little 'under the influence'. He refuses to pay the Penalty Far possible because he doesn't have the money. Inspectors issue him with a Penalty notice (as they should??) I think you are given three weeks to pay? So why has the threat of court action happened so quickly??
Or he refused to pay and was issued with a unpaid fare notice? Again surely three weeks to pay?
Or am I missing something???
Have to say some people on here are a right 'self righteous' lot. I wish I was as perfect as you?!!!
I think what you are missing is that he admitted he knew it was FC and thought he'd get away with it, then was asked for the 'correct' fare (whether you agree with it or not, is £82. I think that's a bit OTT but that's beside the point) and he refused to pay it. If he had stated he had not realised it was FC, they would have struggled to prove it in court, but he has admitted he knew it was FC, and if he had paid the fare when asked, I doubt they'd be prosecuting either.
I was given asolutely nothing by the inspector. I gave him my driving licence, he took down my details, I signed the form and I was told I had three weeks to pay the penalty fare.
If you were issued a fare (Penalty Fare or Unpaid Fares Notice) then you should get a copy. I have no idea if you should get a copy if an MG11 (witness statement for FCC to decide whether or not to prosecute) is completed, I suggest you contact FCC and ask them. Perhaps a guard/RIP here will know?
As for
MikeWh's comments - he has a point. There is no need for posts of glee celebrating cessna's downfall. He has asked us for advice. So why aren't more people explaining he has not been fined, advising him to get a good lawyer, and just generally posting useful information? You don't have to agree with what he did to post sensibly!
If you don't know what a fine or a PF is, which some people don't, why post
just to have a pop at the OP? It achieves nothing and makes this place look unwelcoming, which I think is most unrepresentative as I'm normally delighted with the advice we are providing to people here.
(* I am not a lawyer, but if you go to the court admitting what you admitted here, and given that TOCs only prosecute where there is more of a chance of success than failure, I think I can say "probably". I would not say you "do not have a leg to stand on" and would strongly advise you get a really good lawyer experienced in this field to have a chance. I wish you good luck as I don't think your life should be ruined for this, £82 should be sufficient. Call FCC tomorrow and offer to pay, if they decline, get a lawyer fast)