Might depend on business case...which 769s might have diminished (until they need to be replaced).
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Blackpool - Manchester Electrification
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Might depend on business case...which 769s might have diminished (until they need to be replaced).
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But they could be used elsewhere (Piccadilly to Rose Hill for example)
You miss my point. Electrification business cases are often based on journey time, emissions and operating cost savings of using EMUs over DMUs.
But if using 769s leads to these savings being made on the 90% of the route that is electrified, then the further 'benefits' of the remaining bit of wiring is much diminished.
Yes but bi-modes can be used to justify no further electrification. We have to continue to make the case for it (and get the costs down).
Jozhua
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Bringing the conversation back to the Manchester-Blackpool, will there be an inquiry as to the challenges Network Rail faced with the project and how lessons can be learnt from this electrification project to hopefully bring more electrification to other lines at lower cost and in a shorter space of time?
What are people's thoughts on Network Rail's claims of difficulty creating foundations and issues with collapse of one of their contractors? Are these issues which may be more isolated to this project, due to its timing and perhaps unique geological circumstances, or could they be encountered in future projects?
Looking forward to hearing back from someone more knowledgeable of the subject than me! Personally I'm glad it's complete, and more of the rail network is modern and less polluting.
What are people's thoughts on Network Rail's claims of difficulty creating foundations and issues with collapse of one of their contractors? Are these issues which may be more isolated to this project, due to its timing and perhaps unique geological circumstances, or could they be encountered in future projects?
Looking forward to hearing back from someone more knowledgeable of the subject than me! Personally I'm glad it's complete, and more of the rail network is modern and less polluting.
Elecman
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A large amount of drainage work was done during the closure and even before then ( Poulton specifically )
LDECRexile
Established Member
As hoped, I've got back from my inexquisitely timed grandadding trip to The Great Wen to find lots of photos and films of Monday's excitement.
I've added films from Joe Callaghan to his album here (great to hear from you Joe!):
https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/albums/72157651953947345
photos from inianin to his album here:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/albums/72157669390542677
photos from muenchener to his album here:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/albums/72157704613261795
and photos from Wrinkley to his album here:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/albums/72157654034635234
I've added the lot to the Combined Volume here:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/albums/72157661069863633
Cracking stuff, thanks to all of you.
I've added films from Joe Callaghan to his album here (great to hear from you Joe!):
https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/albums/72157651953947345
photos from inianin to his album here:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/albums/72157669390542677
photos from muenchener to his album here:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/albums/72157704613261795
and photos from Wrinkley to his album here:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/albums/72157654034635234
I've added the lot to the Combined Volume here:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/albums/72157661069863633
Cracking stuff, thanks to all of you.
LDECRexile
Established Member
Images from today
319368 at Bolton bound for Blackpool North
First day of Bolton Electrics by Mike McNiven, on Flickr
319365 coming into Bolton bound for the Airport
First day of Bolton Electrics by Mike McNiven, on Flickr
319361 at Salford Cresent bound for Buckshaw Parkway
First day of Bolton Electrics by Mike McNiven, on Flickr
Dea
First day of Bolton Electrics by Mike McNiven, on Flickr
Smashing shots Mike, thank you.
I see you have them in flickr. Could I please link your album to the one we have been building for some time covering the Manchester-Blackpool electrification, which we (I) call the Combined Volume?
It is here:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/127646831@N03/albums/72157661069863633
Hope so, several other people have done so, with free wins all round and no discernible costs, cash or otherwise..
Dave
GRALISTAIR
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Hope you are still going on your own jaunt tomorrow Dave @LDECRexile
td97
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Probably, but NR are not the most public-facing nor transparent body. Expect any report visible to the public to be published like this.
The foundation issues absolutely hindered the job. The fact that so many bespoke designs had to be created mid-way through the project would have added a lot of expense and time.
The lesson from this is spend more money to do more thorough ground investigation (which NR have followed through on). Not that the initial one would have been done on the cheap, or failed to meet BS EN standards, but the geology was clearly so variable that not all the difficulties were picked up. After doing Chat Moss and St Helens, I am personally surprised that this was the one to cause the biggest headaches. The only explanation is that the geology was so much worse here than expected and correlated from the others.
Carillion absolutely was one of the biggest set backs.
As well as
- Farnworth tunnelling delays
- Balfour packing the job in
- Despite their best efforts, unfortunately Team Orange didn't put in an faultless performance.
- Poor winter weather (worse than expected)
Would expect similar conditions for all areas with coal mining history - basically all the northern, western and eastern routes out of Manchester, and further afield places like Durham Coast, Bishop Auckland, Hexham lines (as baseless examples). The geology definitely is not unique - being above Pennine Coal Measures (disused coal mines = subsidence-prone ground = geotechnically unstable) and a topping of glacial till (can be a variable rock type meaning you can experience pockets of running sands, unconsolidated material and other instabilities = bad for embedded foundations).
It really is a comprehensive route upgrade. Not just an electrification project. I doubt a single sleeper, ballast stone or signalling cable has been left untouched. People are quick to point out how Scotland's so-called 'rolling electrification programme' is the perfect electrification solution, but last time I checked these schemes didn't come with a 33% speed improvement, additional and re-modelled platforms, or super-modern signalling controlled from a state-of-the-art ROC (Rail Operating Centre). The line has done so well to be worthy of these expensive upgrades, and it'll only improve in time when the new trains arrive on the route.
Jozhua
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Thank-you for that fantastic response! Quite a fascinating read, concerning the somewhat unstable geology, would this not be a concern for trains already on the route?
My guess is that in combination with sleepers and ballast, trains exert a force that is more spread out over the ground and pushes down vertically, however an electric pylon is exposed to more horizontal forces from wind and trains pushing the cables around, etc...
I'm guessing the geological issues would even further come to a front when changing the layout of tracks and widening tunnels.
Seeing the amount of redacted content on Crossrail is funny, has more redactions than most declassified government documents!
td97
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No, because the issue is with installing OLE masts and gantries at an embedded depth, to transfer the forces from the OLE installation to the soil/rock. The mast and its attachments cause an overturning force which must be supported and counteracted by the soil.
In contrast, the track is a long structure so therefore the load caused by the sleepers, rail etc. is distributed evenly over its length almost at surface level, and the forces involved are much lower compared to the OLE installation (which you did say).
The wind load will be negligible; the difference is between supporting the distributed load (track) and point loads (masts).
PDG1949
Member
Slightly off topic, but has anyone noticed this is page 319 ??!!
Jozhua
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On the first week of 319's!
59CosG95
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What a time to be alive.
There needs to be some investigation as to whether there was some way of not having the Atherton line closed for almost the whole duration of the works.
Does the track layout need altering ? Is there an issue with the signalling system that needs to be resolved, could some element of single line working have been introduced at some stage ?
To have a whole route closed for so long without works taking place on it was nothing short of a disgrace.
LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
And yet we didn't hear of ground conditions affecting the earlier electrification projects in, say, Lanarkshire, or through Durham/Northumberland, or Warwickshire, all problematic mining areas.
The recent Chase line electrification was also delayed by ground conditions linked to mining.
I remember the new Harecastle Tunnel at Kidsgrove (1966) being an unexpectedly difficult job, but that was about all on the WCML.
There was the salt subsidence issue at Sandbach for decades, of course, with the OHLE needing jacking up periodically and low TSRs imposed.
On the east side the marshy fens seem to have been the most troublesome areas, in the long term.
It will be interesting following the Valleys electrification in South Wales, with its similarly complex geology.
maybe the lesson to learn is to do proper site surveys before starting work. These projects went wrong because too many surprises, I think
a_c_skinner
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The irritating thing about this is that the geology of the area is, in principle, well known. Coal fields need to be understood so you can mine and we have a good deal of experience of digging in them too, 200 years of mining with a lot of geological mapping published. Even my rudimentary knowledge says expect layer upon layer of different rocks, that is how the coal seams formed as cycles of deposition went on. I doubt knowing more would have speeded the project, difficult is always difficult, but it might have got a better estimation of completion dates and more resource.
Part of the problems has apparently been that more historic mining (200+ years) often nearer the surface that wasn't properly recorded.
Joseph_Locke
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More true to say that some of the mining records (relating to activity in the late 1700's) were never right. The only way to be 100% certain of what is the top 10m beneath your feet is to dig a hole. This information will be good within 1m of the hole, with descending levels of veracity as you get further away. At 5m the truth (particularly with relation to early Georgian pillar and stall coal workings) could be completely different.
So, the only way to find the truth is to dig the foundation hole you were going to dig anyway...
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I think the BGS as pretty good records of the more recent activity (last 150 years) but as Joseph Locke says any older is dubious.
The classic civils joke /saying:
You pay for the ground survey now* or later
*before detailed design work
As another recent example of the point JL is making:
Despite circa 25 test bore holes on the crossrail Farringdon station site, when construction started they found 2 unknown geological faults resulting in an extra £20+m of costs just in the initial civils (not all civils) contract and far more in the main station contract but the later contract detailed costs may not ever be public unless there is decent learning process at the end.
Chrisyd
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Certainly one of the Blackburn to Rochdale diagrams via Bolton is short formed today, that said it is a 153 missing, which haven't been freed up from the 319s releasing other units. Although the peak diagrams on this route really need to be 4 carriages anyway.
Slight overreaction. The Atherton line was closed on some of the weekends when the Bolton line was closed, but far from, "almost the whole duration of the works". I've been commuting from Wigan to Manchester via a combination of the Bolton, Atherton, and Chat Moss routes for the last 3.5 years, and had hardly any issues at all.
The Farnsworth Tunnel blockade, and a few weekends (far, far from every weekend), are the only times I've noticed a significant alteration of service via Atherton.
Jozhua
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Hi, does anyone know what times the 3 electric diagrams are running at? I'm eager to catch an electric train and would like to know when they are running!
I can assure you that out of the whole rugby season, I had a train service once on a Saturday.
You must have been commuting in a parallel universe if you've been using the Atherton line on weekends last year hand haven't experienced significant disruption.
Apparently I have been. Genuinely haven't experienced any major issues since other than when Salford Crescent has been closed for works down there. That said, for four months of last year there was a strike every Saturday anyway so the less said about those days the better.
As I say, only major issues I had were during the Farnworth blockade, 3 years ago was that now?
One of my offices is next to Ormskirk station. The Ormskirk - Blackpool S - Colne circuit has hitherto been Pacer dominated, on Tuesday two thirds of the services were 150s!
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