Another one without a Railcard

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Starmill

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Ooh, that's a little ageist, isn't it?

Most "elderly people" are perfectly organised. These days it's more likely to be the young people, distracted by their iPods, Android phones and updating their Facebook status every five minutes that are likely to have to hunt for their railcards and reservations.

Um, no. Sorry, load of tosh.

I respect member's opinions based on their observations, but we can't say either way with this without resorting to conjecture.

Something that perhaps is interesting to think about... the 'Please have tickets, passes and railcards ready for inspection' announcement - which is sometimes varied to state that Route XYZ tickets are not valid and that advance tickets are only valid where supported by a reservation for the xx:xx departure from A.

Make the announcement and its less likely people will be slow or caught by surprise, but the real dodgers will then be forewarned...
 
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Something that perhaps is interesting to think about... the 'Please have tickets, passes and railcards ready for inspection' announcement - which is sometimes varied to state that Route XYZ tickets are not valid and that advance tickets are only valid where supported by a reservation for the xx:xx departure from A.

Make the announcement and its less likely people will be slow or caught by surprise, but the real dodgers will then be forewarned...

Amusingly enough I had a full announcement of that the other day on my HST from Bristol, very thorough indeed.... which was followed by no ticket check at all by the time I alighted at Swindon. :lol:
 

reb0118

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It is against the rulebook to chuck somebody off at an unmanned station.

I've never understood this rule. If passengers are allowed to alight at unstaffed stations with tickets why not without?

In Scotland the law is slightly different you can be put of a train for not having the means to pay (or refusing to pay) even if you have given your (true) details. It is not permitted to put children or other vulnerable passengers off at an unstaffed station however.
 

DaveNewcastle

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I've never understood this rule. If passengers are allowed to alight at unstaffed stations with tickets why not without?
Yes, it seems perverse, doesn't it?

Because this is Sunday morning and I'm not working, I'm not going to look up any references, and just jump in with a guess.... I'd guess that the ticket holding passenger is quite entitled to choose to put themselves in a position of hazard (by alighting at an unstaffed station with no onward assistance from the Railway Companies), but that an operator would be failing in their Duty of Care to 'force' a person into that position of hazard, and would bear some culpability and probably some liability, for any untoward consequences.
 

reb0118

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I've never understood this rule. If passengers are allowed to alight at unstaffed stations with tickets why not without?

Yes, it seems perverse, doesn't it?

Because this is Sunday morning and I'm not working, I'm not going to look up any references, and just jump in with a guess.... I'd guess that the ticket holding passenger is quite entitled to choose to put themselves in a position of hazard (by alighting at an unstaffed station with no onward assistance from the Railway Companies), but that an operator would be failing in their Duty of Care to 'force' a person into that position of hazard, and would bear some culpability and probably some liability, for any untoward consequences.

I think you have summed it up quite succinctly. We can all imagine the gutter press headlines "Man thrown off train in strange town - evil railway to blame!"

Like other guards I have my regular avoiders but I operate on the three strikes and you're off principle. First a general chat about rights and responsibilities, second a formal warning and possible TIR, thirdly refusal to travel if seen prior to boarding without a valid ticket or removal from train if found on board without ticket or means to pay.

This policy, if implemented across the board, would work to help reduce fare dodgers as even a few regulars in my neck of the woods have now started to buy tickets.
 

yorkie

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When someone who is being abusive, and both not in possession of and refusing to purchase any sort of ticket, is chucked off at an unstaffed station, whether the rules allow for it or not) I have no problem with that personally, to be honest. I would never report a Guard for that and would support them 100%.

But what really bugs me is that a Guard apparently (?) has the authority to chuck off passengers at an unstaffed station, say 300 miles from home, after 10.15pm at night, to wait an hour, when those passengers were instructed from a Help Point to take the train they were ejected from, and were travelling on tickets routed "Any Permitted".
 

Squaddie

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When someone who is being abusive, and both not in possession of and refusing to purchase any sort of ticket, is chucked off at an unstaffed station, whether the rules allow for it or not) I have no problem with that personally, to be honest. I would never report a Guard for that and would support them 100%.

But what really bugs me is that a Guard apparently (?) has the authority to chuck off passengers at an unstaffed station, say 300 miles from home, after 10.15pm at night, to wait an hour, when those passengers were instructed from a Help Point to take the train they were ejected from, and were travelling on tickets routed "Any Permitted".
It's all a horrible mess, isn't it?

Someone needs to sit down with a big, blank sheet of paper and redesign the operating rules of the entire rail system from scratch. Make it simple, concise and unambiguous... and then make sure that everyone knows and understands it.
 

Llanigraham

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It's all a horrible mess, isn't it?

Someone needs to sit down with a big, blank sheet of paper and redesign the operating rules of the entire rail system from scratch. Make it simple, concise and unambiguous... and then make sure that everyone knows and understands it.

That's simple; only needs 4 words:


"No ticket? You're dead!!"<D
 

Solent&Wessex

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I remember a short exchange I had with a passenger who I was chucking off the train once, after he had no ticket, no money and was hiding in the toilet.

After being told to get off, despite his sob story that he had to get home to visit his dying mother who is desperately ill and couldn't cope without his help (which strangely hadn't stopped him going out on the p*ss and spending the night in a nightclub), he replied:

"You can't do this. This is no way to treat a customer."

I replied, quickly, "I know it isn't, I never treat customers like this. Customers pay for things, you haven't and are not going to, so therefore you are not a customer. Goodbye".

I think he was so shocked to get talked back to that he got off!
 

BestWestern

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reb0118:1532613 said:
I've never understood this rule. If passengers are allowed to alight at unstaffed stations with tickets why not without?

Yes, it seems perverse, doesn't it?

Because this is Sunday morning and I'm not working, I'm not going to look up any references, and just jump in with a guess.... I'd guess that the ticket holding passenger is quite entitled to choose to put themselves in a position of hazard (by alighting at an unstaffed station with no onward assistance from the Railway Companies), but that an operator would be failing in their Duty of Care to 'force' a person into that position of hazard, and would bear some culpability and probably some liability, for any untoward consequences.

I think you have summed it up quite succinctly. We can all imagine the gutter press headlines "Man thrown off train in strange town - evil railway to blame!"

Like other guards I have my regular avoiders but I operate on the three strikes and you're off principle. First a general chat about rights and responsibilities, second a formal warning and possible TIR, thirdly refusal to travel if seen prior to boarding without a valid ticket or removal from train if found on board without ticket or means to pay.

This policy, if implemented across the board, would work to help reduce fare dodgers as even a few regulars in my neck of the woods have now started to buy tickets.

Unfortunately though, this policy tends to end up landing the Guard in trouble when the train is delayed, or an assault occurs, or reports have to be written. Hence many of us just let it go. That is ultimately what most companies want their staff to do :-/
 

Sleepy

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I find if someone does not have or intend to purchase a ticket you ask where they are travelling to, the reply is usually next stop. If they sit there at next station I will pick up bag or coat and put it on platform, they soon get off train, if they then say they want go further I shut doors and wave bye ! Never had anyone write in to complain yet ! (This is unless I introduce them to RPI depending on which route I am working)
 

Michael.Y

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Surely the best way to avoid this type of fare dodging (i.e. buying a ticket with a discount you are not entitled to) is to nip the problem at the first opportunity: namely produce railcards with unique ID numbers which must be entered at the point of sale (internet, TVM, booth/window) for the ticket to be sold....

They don't even have to be recorded numbers .... all they have to have is a control number / code in the same way an ISBN number does.

That way, if a genuine YP / Disabled / Senior railcard holder does forget their card, at least their ticket will be valid.
 

bb21

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They don't even have to be recorded numbers .... all they have to have is a control number / code in the same way an ISBN number does.

The most hardened criminals will soon work out the algorithm behind it.
 

sheff1

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But what really bugs me is that a Guard apparently (?) has the authority to chuck off passengers at an unstaffed station, say 300 miles from home, after 10.15pm at night, to wait an hour, when those passengers were instructed from a Help Point to take the train they were ejected from, and were travelling on tickets routed "Any Permitted".

By 'chuck', do you mean physically remove someone ? If so, I would be very surprised if they have such authority.

If, instead, it is the (apparent) authority to ask someone to alight, then surely the passenger only needs to refuse to comply with the request.
 
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bb21

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Don't all railcards have a unique number at present?

They do, but my comment was aimed at the suggestion that some sort of control number/check digit would be sufficient, which is how ISBN works on a mod 11 basis.

It can possibly be a short-term cure, but in the long run, if the matter is to be taken seriously, something more robust should be developed, such as printing the actual Railcard number on the ticket.
 

MattRobinson

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Ooh, that's a little ageist, isn't it?

Most "elderly people" are perfectly organised. These days it's more likely to be the young people, distracted by their iPods, Android phones and updating their Facebook status every five minutes that are likely to have to hunt for their railcards and reservations.

And that reply isn't?

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2
 

34D

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They do, but my comment was aimed at the suggestion that some sort of control number/check digit would be sufficient, which is how ISBN works on a mod 11 basis.

It can possibly be a short-term cure, but in the long run, if the matter is to be taken seriously, something more robust should be developed, such as printing the actual Railcard number on the ticket.

Yes, I think I quoted the wrong person. Agree a check digit/algorithm is insufficient: it would ideally have to match a mag stripe (or for online sales, match number and match postcode).

Regarding the mythical database, surely each sale of a railcard (whether over the website or at a counter) is written to a 'log' somewhere - though most probably internal to each TOC?

So not that hard to do a magswipe in a station and to perform a simple SQL query?
 

island

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They do, but my comment was aimed at the suggestion that some sort of control number/check digit would be sufficient, which is how ISBN works on a mod 11 basis.

Are you sure? Station-issued Railcards have a five-digit number, and I'd stick my neck out and say they probably sell more than 100,000 Y-P or Network Railcards at stations in a year.
 

Haywain

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Yes, I think I quoted the wrong person. Agree a check digit/algorithm is insufficient: it would ideally have to match a mag stripe (or for online sales, match number and match postcode).

Regarding the mythical database, surely each sale of a railcard (whether over the website or at a counter) is written to a 'log' somewhere - though most probably internal to each TOC?

So not that hard to do a magswipe in a station and to perform a simple SQL query?
You have an optimistic view of what information the mag stripe carries. It actually holds little more than the fact that it is a railcard and the expiry date.
 

bb21

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Are you sure? Station-issued Railcards have a five-digit number, and I'd stick my neck out and say they probably sell more than 100,000 Y-P or Network Railcards at stations in a year.

I wasn't actually thinking of the five-digit number per se. The mechanism is a viable one in principle. Using the five-digit ticket numbers on their own may not be a good idea, and I was more thinking of using the Photocard number, or a combination of both, which would certainly be sufficient. Alternatively using the ten-digit number, which includes the ticket number, the NLC of the issuing location and the issuing window, although may not be unique, should have a sufficiently low probability of a valid entry being generated at random that it is secure for our purpose.
 
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