Arriva CrossCountry contract extended through to October 2019

[jayah]

1. Many people still don't have large data allowances on their phones.
2. If using a tablet or laptop on the train, it's far preferable to have WiFi provided in any case.
3. Even if you do have enough data on your phone, reception comes and goes, much better to have the train's WiFi which benefits from better antennae and ideally multi-network connections.
4. Visitors from other countries won't have data or it will be very expensive.

.

*If you are using big data, pay for big data.
* If its free people will think it is preferable.
* By all means provide a signal, but no more.
* I use data all over Europe. It is not expensive and almost everyone has it. How many tourists do you see in London not using Google Maps because they have no data?

The train needs to play to its strengths by providing a good signal but NOT free data.

 

[najaB]

How many tourists do you see in London not using Google Maps because they have no data?

I'd like to think you aren't seriously asking how often we see someone *NOT* doing something...

 

[The Ham]

* I use data all over Europe. It is not expensive and almost everyone has it. How many tourists do you see in London not using Google Maps because they have no data?

... And what about those non EU citizens who aren't protected by EMU rulings data charges? Have you used data in, say, the US, or do we not have many American tourists?

As an example one UK phone provider offers "25MB a day for just £5" for data roaming. Now 25mb isn't a lot, and if you are able to avoid using data for a day (hotel wi-fi, train wi-fi, hotel wi-fi) then you'll be better off.

Yes it is not a key priority, but the cost isn't really that great and some TOCs are rolling out free station wi-fi as well.

 

[jayah]

... And what about those non EU citizens who aren't protected by EMU rulings data charges? Have you used data in, say, the US, or do we not have many American tourists?

As an example one UK phone provider offers "25MB a day for just £5" for data roaming. Now 25mb isn't a lot, and if you are able to avoid using data for a day (hotel wi-fi, train wi-fi, hotel wi-fi) then you'll be better off.

Yes it is not a key priority, but the cost isn't really that great and some TOCs are rolling out free station wi-fi as well.

Vodafone charge £5 for 25MB for exclusive roaming. If you have a UK data package, you can take it outside Europe for £5 a day. Frankly if you don't have a UK data package why should anyone expect every cafe, hotel, bus and train company to furnish them with free data?

The cost of the hardware is colossal - DfT announced in 2014 £90m for free WiFi on trains and that is just a selected package of improvements - you could actually fix most of the XC crowding problems for that sort of money and it needs constant investment to keep up with technology.

And all that data - well it doesn't come for free either.....

 

[Starmill]

I think Jayah has missed the point rather. £90m for free wifi on every train in the country sounds like a bargain to me. But free wifi on trains is for exactly the same reason its provided in coffee shops, hotels and on buses. It makes it more likely that people will want to use those services!

 

[Skipness]

So that's now three franchises that will be running power-door, post 2020 compliant HSTs...

This is a design that has its origins 40 years ago. Just goes to show what an excellent design this was to still be in front line service, admittedly with some improvements such as new engines and still preferable to Voyagers in the eyes of many. At least they can operate through Dawlish in adverse weather.

 

[387star]

I don't understand why this train service is so neglected

This should ne a premier route

For many people this is their first impression of british rail travel

Enough to put one off

Four coach trains is absurd

And still with virgin seat covers...

 

[Haydn1971]

I don't understand why this train service is so neglected

It's one of the lowest revenue earning franchises, which I also don't understand either... High ticket prices and rammed trains, why does it lose so much ?



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[jayah]

You won't get a fleet utilisation of 5 out of 5 HST sets (2 being the current base level on a weekday).

At most I'd expect that the 06:40 York - Plymouth/13:25 Plymouth - Edinburgh (Currently HST on a Monday only) and 06:32 Dundee - Plymouth/17:25 Plymouth - Leeds (Currently HST on a Friday only) diagrams will be HST operated throughout the week, or something very similar. Obviously this does then allow for a modest re-arrangement of Voyager diagrams in a similar manner to that which you have outlined, but to a lesser extent.

So how exactly do XC get away with their overcrowding levels and using 2/5 HSTs each weekday? Their stock answer on Twitter is that they can't cover every crowded service with their current resources. OK - but they aren't actually trying to!

Surely the PIXCs regime was designed to stop this sort of abuse - a TOC should be making reasonable endeavours not to have PIXCs - if you are a 10 car railway running 10 car trains every three minutes fair enough you can do little more, but having the equivalent of 4x4 car diagrammable Voyagers (2xHSTs) in the depot all day every day and 4 car trains on ram packed peak trains at Birmingham isn't really trying is it?

 

[387star]

Birmingham is a massive city...

Just hpw busy are the peak voyagers out of interest? Or do london midland pick up the traffic

What are the busiest commuter flows? Around birmingham and between southampton and reading I guess? They are not suitable for commuter traffic at all

Yeah never understood the low hst usage either

Leasing costs ?

 

[jayah]

Birmingham is a massive city...

Just hpw busy are the peak voyagers out of interest? Or do london midland pick up the traffic

What are the busiest commuter flows? Around birmingham and between southampton and reading I guess? They are not suitable for commuter traffic at all

Yeah never understood the low hst usage either

Leasing costs ?

They are already leasing them!

The whole PIXC system was meant to stop TOCs mothballing and shortforming while trains were severely overcrowded. And yet they have given XC a 3 year extension to stop them doing this.

Where aren't XC fantastically crowded in the peak? Birmingham, Sheffield, Leeds, Manchester, Bristol, Oxford. Their 2/3 car Turbostar network is little better.

I would say Southampton, Edinburgh and a few others aren't as bad as they are up against big trains on the same route and people soon learn to avoid their Voyagers like the plague.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...file/541587/rail-passengers-crowding-2015.pdf

 

[Bletchleyite]

They really do need to roughly double their capacity across their network - they'd fill it, too.

 

[jayah]

I think Jayah has missed the point rather. £90m for free wifi on every train in the country sounds like a bargain to me. But free wifi on trains is for exactly the same reason its provided in coffee shops, hotels and on buses. It makes it more likely that people will want to use those services!

It is not £90m for the whole country. It was £90m for a few lines. In 3-5 years, the same lines will need another £90m to keep the technology up to date, as will the other 75% of the network not in the scope of this funding.

Buses, like trains are paid for by taxpayers.

Coffee shops are completely different. They are on every street corner, and desperately need a reason why you should sit in their establishment and not the 4 others within a direct line of sight. Free WiFi is of little use to a car driver and most people have their own data package anyway, they would just prefer to be able to get the taxpayer and other farepayers to subsidise it.

And all that data, it isn't free either.....

 

[TheBigD]

I don't understand why this train service is so neglected

Doesn't touch London...
No "champion" like Northern/TPE have in TfN...
Doesn't make the headlines as any crowding issues etc the media will focus on the local TOC...
Franchise let at a time where quality didn't score as highly as profit/least subsidy...

I'm sure others will add to the list...

 

[Master29]

I don't understand why this train service is so neglected

This should ne a premier route

For many people this is their first impression of british rail travel

Enough to put one off

Four coach trains is absurd

And still with virgin seat covers...

Agreed. The Voyagers definitely need a refreshing. To be fair I do like their HST`s

 

[Astradyne]

when I visit a foreign country the first thing I do is get a prepay chip from a local operator... not sure what the problem is ... you allow for it in the cost of your holiday ... if not ... leave your phone/tablet switched off
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think Jayah has missed the point rather. £90m for free wifi on every train in the country sounds like a bargain to me. But free wifi on trains is for exactly the same reason its provided in coffee shops, hotels and on buses. It makes it more likely that people will want to use those services!

You can elect to stay in different hotels... but you can probably only pick 1 train company .... maybe 2

 

[Starmill]

Yes, or you can do what most people do and drive, because it's so often cheaper or quicker, or both. Unless you can be convinced that parting with very significant cash for a train ticket is worth it because you can make use of the time onboard working, perhaps with a reliable Internet connection making all the difference...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It is not £90m for the whole country. It was £90m for a few lines. In 3-5 years, the same lines will need another £90m to keep the technology up to date, as will the other 75% of the network not in the scope of this funding.

Where did you get all of this from..?

Bizarre that anyone would complain about a cost that genuinely improves the service. If costs are that important to you, why are you not also very unhappy at the cost of vinyling trains completely unnecessary so that they carry a particular brand? That adds much less value than providing a reliable Internet connection.

 

[158756]

There are National Express and Megabus, both of which say on their websites they are going to expand their free wifi offer. Round here the bus routes in competition with the train already have free wifi.

Surely one big selling point of a train is the ability to work on board, but this increasingly requires internet access, so working on the train starts to cost money, which might be saved if I drove instead and reached home or a hotel faster, where the internet connection is already paid for.

Also, of course, with the amount of time people spend on their phones these days there are probably a fair few for whom the thought of going a whole hour without a connection would persuade them to use a much slower bus where they can fill the time uploading selfies.

Plus, when your local bus has free wifi, the lack of it on trains further entrenches views of the railway as old fashioned, stuck in the past. I don't know if such views still exist in areas with better trains, but they certainly do here in pacer land.

I don't know the economics of installing such wifi systems though, so if the costs outweigh the benefits, then as a taxpayer I say we shouldn't have it.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

They are already leasing them!

I think the current HST leases are on a daily or mileage basis, unlike the Voyagers.
XC has also been under the cosh for years to get out of revenue support from the DfT.
The economics probably now justifies more stock, but over the next 3 years there isn't any to be had, so maximising the HST work is the best they can do.
I suspect the DfT wants the dominos to fall on ICWC and East Midlands renewals before it contemplates the longer term for XC.
That will determine the future for the rest of the 22x fleet.

 

[infobleep]

There are National Express and Megabus, both of which say on their websites they are going to expand their free wifi offer. Round here the bus routes in competition with the train already have free wifi.

Surely one big selling point of a train is the ability to work on board, but this increasingly requires internet access, so working on the train starts to cost money, which might be saved if I drove instead and reached home or a hotel faster, where the internet connection is already paid for.

Also, of course, with the amount of time people spend on their phones these days there are probably a fair few for whom the thought of going a whole hour without a connection would persuade them to use a much slower bus where they can fill the time uploading selfies.

Plus, when your local bus has free wifi, the lack of it on trains further entrenches views of the railway as old fashioned, stuck in the past. I don't know if such views still exist in areas with better trains, but they certainly do here in pacer land.

I don't know the economics of installing such wifi systems though, so if the costs outweigh the benefits, then as a taxpayer I say we shouldn't have it.

I always thought the view was Cross Country trains wanted to make as much money as possible and so were more than happy to continue charging.

I seem to remember someone posting on here that they asked them about free WiFi when Great Western Railway was free and the reply wasn't favourable towards making it free. Just were justifying why one should pay. I've now found the thread. It's totally at odds with the recent announcement. Reading between the lines is this a Government directive via DfT that Cross Country Trains have to accept? Or am I reading to much into it.
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=2240267

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[Muzer]

I wish TOCs and government would stop wasting money on wifi; the overwhelming trend is for customers to have their own internet enabled devices. In-train wifi hardware will become obsolete as quickly as the old Virgin headphone sockets for radio channels.

* Wi-Fi doesn't seem like it would be fantastically expensive to install, I strongly suspect it's the ongoing costs that are more significant. So if this hypothetical day comes you can just switch it off and pay no more.
* Phone companies have been dragging their feet on serving roads and railways for years now. There are still major roads and main lines with large patches of missing coverage on major operators. And minor operators --- just forget it.
* Even when there is coverage, a lot of it is GPRS, which today is hopelessly insufficient for modern smartphones.
* Even when there is 3G coverage, modern train windows (especially Voyagers) have an anti-glare coating that attenuates the signal to such an extent that much of the coverage is useless anyway
* At well-served places, the number of people on a train can still cause the cell towers to be swamped. At Waterloo and Clapham Junction when sat on a train I tend to find my phone's internet to be completely unusable.

Many of these problems aren't going to change in the near future, and some of them are nigh-on impossible to solve in the near future. Certainly Wi-Fi will pay for itself in increased productivity even if it's useful for only about five years, and I can guarantee you that it'll be useful for much longer than that.

Now, we could argue that modular solutions are required, where the router, Wi-Fi radio and upstream can all be replaced separately and cheaply using standard protocols, so that when the new mobile broadband standard comes about they can easily be switched to that, and when new 802.11 standards come out they can use that.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

Working the HSTs harder and reconfiguring the Voyagers is sensible, but it's absolutely workaday stuff - the sort of thing that other franchises would be doing without the need for a renewal, direct award or other renegotiation. (F)GWR and others have done more with less fuss.

Grand Central getting the 180s to unite their fleet. There was a report recently that stated there was a business case to increase capacity on the Plymouth-Edinburgh route but the case was poor value for money on the routes via Reading.

That genuinely surprises me. Oxford-Birmingham is so rammed on XC that I avoid it whenever possible. As Haydn1971 says, there's something weird going on if you can't make a fortune out of high ticket prices and rammed trains, though I do wonder whether that "something weird" is really, really bad demand management.

 

[Bletchleyite]

XC just has the feel of the lackadaisical, don't care, half-hearted feel I get from Arriva as a whole, to be honest. So this doesn't overly surprise me.

There's certainly very little feel of DB in the passenger operations to me. It's just classic old Arriva, and it shows everywhere except Chiltern - I think the latter must have enough of their old Laing management around to avoid it.

 

[HowardGWR]

I've experienced very good staff service on XC, to be fair. I didn't get any reply about retention toilets on the HSTs. I searched about and it would appear they did get them on the re-hired Mark 3s (I think they were updated by the GNER Mallard project, but I am interpolating from the info available). I have used the Leeds to Plymouth HST service but did not use the facilities. I assume that one knows that there are retention loos by the absence of a request plaque not to use the loo when in a station?

 

[najaB]

It's just classic old Arriva, and it shows everywhere except Chiltern - I think the latter must have enough of their old Laing management around to avoid it.

There's that, though of course you also have consider that the Chiltern franchise is largely self-contained (limited interaction with other franchised operators), provides direct competition on one of the largest passenger flows, and was let for twenty years instead of ten which makes it much more attractive an investment target than Cross Country.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It isn't staff I feel is the issue, it's the overall feel of the operation, to be clear. Most railway staff are good, by and large, however good or bad the TOC itself.

Mind you, having defended Chiltern some of it has the same feel. In particular the LHCS refurb, particularly the LED lighting, is incredibly cheap and nasty. Though ATW's LHCS and 158 refurb is one of the most comprehensive, so that doesn't apply universally (but ATW's 175s and unrefurbished 158s are in an inexcusably disgusting state).

 

[najaB]

I didn't get any reply about retention toilets on the HSTs. I searched about and it would appear they did get them on the re-hired Mark 3s (I think they were updated by the GNER Mallard project, but I am interpolating from the info available).

I don't think that GNER replaced the toilets - AFAIK they still discharge onto the track.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Mind you, having defended Chiltern some of it has the same feel. In particular the LHCS refurb, particularly the LED lighting, is incredibly cheap and nasty. Though ATW's LHCS and 158 refurb is one of the most comprehensive, so that doesn't apply universally (but ATW's 175s and unrefurbished 158s are in an inexcusably disgusting state).

The Welsh Government paid for ATW's rolling stock upgrades, and the whole of the "Gerald" operation including catering.
DB did stump up the second LHCS set for Holyhead-Manchester (after pressure from DfT).

 

[ainsworth74]

I don't think that GNER replaced the toilets - AFAIK they still discharge onto the track.

They do.

 

[Robertj21a]

XC just has the feel of the lackadaisical, don't care, half-hearted feel I get from Arriva as a whole, to be honest. So this doesn't overly surprise me.

There's certainly very little feel of DB in the passenger operations to me. It's just classic old Arriva, and it shows everywhere except Chiltern - I think the latter must have enough of their old Laing management around to avoid it.

Can't say I've had any particular issues with XC - or London Overground for that matter.