Arriva CrossCountry contract extended through to October 2019

[TheBigD]

As I posted earlier, underwhelming is an understatement...

Whilst not expecting miracles, the Direct Award doesn't even deliver what Arriva planned for, and what was even in the printed timetables for summer 2008 (or 2009, not 100% sure which) on the Birmingham-Stansted route (see below)... The services never ran despite being in the printed timetables...

The Cambridge economy has done and continues to do pretty well, which was reflected in the new Greater Anglia franchise... Other than a small rejig of the 170 fleet resulting in an extra 3 car vice 2 on the route, and a swap to enable a 4 car 170 on the 0720 Leicester-B'ham vice 3 car with the 0737 Notts-B'ham reducing from 4 car to 3 car, there's been next to no other improvements...

I'm not familiar with how the Notts-Brum-Cardiff services load but there is a fair bit of overcrowding on the Stansted route... Try the 1522 out of New Street or the 1800 out of Cambridge to see 2 car services in their finest!!!

The following was proposed back in 2008...

Monday to Friday with similar on Saturdays...
0652, 0852, 1052, 1252 and 1852 B'ham-Leicester extended through to Cambridge...
0818, 1018, 1218, 1418, 1618, 1818, and on Saturday, the 2218 Leicester-B'ham starting back from Cambridge...
Similar calling pattern east of Leicester through some of the paths were less than optimal (eg 30 minutes to do March-Ely and 25 minutes Peterborough-Stamford on some services)...
This was to be resourced by diagramming 26 out of 29 170's in service every day (currently it's 25 out of 29) with provision to use the hot standby Voyager at New Street for the 1739 Brum-Derby if short of units...

 

[jon0844]

* Wi-Fi doesn't seem like it would be fantastically expensive to install, I strongly suspect it's the ongoing costs that are more significant. So if this hypothetical day comes you can just switch it off and pay no more.

* Phone companies have been dragging their feet on serving roads and railways for years now. There are still major roads and main lines with large patches of missing coverage on major operators. And minor operators --- just forget it.

- There are many modern planning issues that delay the installation of new infrastructure that is needed to cope with the growing needs for data, as well as running the fibre to sites (given microwave links are usually too slow and restrictive). These issues can be resolved, but some networks have huge backlogs as people continue to fight new sites, despite moaning (no doubt) about the poor phone coverage.

* Even when there is coverage, a lot of it is GPRS, which today is hopelessly insufficient for modern smartphones.

- Probably very true for O2 and Vodafone, but ultimately these sites need 4G added at 800MHz (all the networks have 800MHz spectrum, but not all use it). EE and Three is best placed to roll out 800 with the best coverage, as it can be turned up to a level that means coverage will go further than 2G (using VoLTE). So far Three has fairly limited coverage and EE is yet to go live - but when it does, boy, will it make a big difference.

* Even when there is 3G coverage, modern train windows (especially Voyagers) have an anti-glare coating that attenuates the signal to such an extent that much of the coverage is useless anyway

- Yes, this is a problem. I wonder if 800 will work better on such trains. I hope so, as it does make some trains seem like Faraday cages.

* At well-served places, the number of people on a train can still cause the cell towers to be swamped. At Waterloo and Clapham Junction when sat on a train I tend to find my phone's internet to be completely unusable.

- Should be easily fixed these days. The quicker 3G is turned off the better (3G should go before 2G, as 2G still has a place for voice and M2M things like smart meters). Cell Breathing is what makes 3G so, well, crap.

Refarm 3G to 4G and you'll solve a lot of problems. Vodafone and O2 is doing this. Three intends to. I guess EE will in due course, but it currently has enough spectrum to cope and I'd imagine EE users have few problems in busy areas compared to anyone else.

Many of these problems aren't going to change in the near future, and some of them are nigh-on impossible to solve in the near future. Certainly Wi-Fi will pay for itself in increased productivity even if it's useful for only about five years, and I can guarantee you that it'll be useful for much longer than that.

Now, we could argue that modular solutions are required, where the router, Wi-Fi radio and upstream can all be replaced separately and cheaply using standard protocols, so that when the new mobile broadband standard comes about they can easily be switched to that, and when new 802.11 standards come out they can use that.

802.11ac is more resilient than some older systems using crowded 2.4GHz Wi-Fi (bearing in mind a lot of people use their mobiles as hotspots, so on any carriage you may find the channels very congested). Most new phones and laptops/tablets will support this.

I am not an expert on Wi-Fi, but I think you'll find that .ac copes better with congestion and is 'fairer' in the way it communicates. In the future, there will be other improvements, which need to be supported as soon as possible.

One issue with Wi-Fi is that 'roaming' never works well, so people can find themselves with problems if they're in an environment with lots of access points. Some parts of the train may well be problematic because you'll keep swapping, and find you're clinging on to a really low signal instead of a stronger one.

I would prefer to use 4G personally, but we've got another year or so to go before we see the monumental coverage improvements needed.

I would certainly say EE will be way out in front for the forseeable, followed by Vodafone - which if it achieves its aims will overtake Three. That will leave Three in third place (apt?!) and O2 last, with the least amount of spectrum.

 

[HowardGWR]

They do.

IMHO, replacing the loos has more priority than automatic doors (although those are desirable of course). I just don't see the point of heavy expenditure on modernising the Mark 3 coaches to 2019 on one aspect, unless they are made totally suitable for post 2019.

 

[Kettledrum]

Whilst the improvements are very limited, they are still more than I was really expecting.

Overcrowding will still continue - and get worse if you end up on a 4 car service that was previously a 5 car.

No improvements on the overcrowding n the Cardiff to Nottingham route either.

Making better use of the HSTs is a no brainer, and it has amazed me that XC have got away with keeping over half their HST fleet parked up all day long, when they should be being used.

New sliding doors on the HSTs should also reduce station dwell times, helping to improve punctuality and fleet usage.

 

[Jd12]

Whilst the improvements are very limited, they are still more than I was really expecting.

Overcrowding will still continue - and get worse if you end up on a 4 car service that was previously a 5 car.

No improvements on the overcrowding n the Cardiff to Nottingham route either.

Making better use of the HSTs is a no brainer, and it has amazed me that XC have got away with keeping over half their HST fleet parked up all day long, when they should be being used.

New sliding doors on the HSTs should also reduce station dwell times, helping to improve punctuality and fleet usage.

Cross Country use 3 out of 5 HST's everyday to cover 3 diagrams.

 

[Masboroughlad]

I used to work for XC when it was first privatised with Virgin.

Have to say, it is a shadow of what it used to be. We used to call XC the Cinderella TOC then, it's even more so now. Maybe an ugly sister.....

Travelled with XC over last couple of days and witnessed how different it is compared to other intercity TOCS. Real shame that it is not treated as a proper long distance franchise with decent length trains, better comfort and generally just a bit better.....

I do wonder if one day, the XC franchise will go altogether. The Stansted and Leicester trains could go to a Midland group, Scotland to West Country to EC or GWR, Manchester to the SE or SW to West Coast, Midland or SWT? Finally, give the Cardiff services to Wales franchise.

Time for a real remapping?!

 

[najaB]

...Scotland to West Country to EC or GWR...

Can't see either of them wanting it.

 

[SkinnyDave]

I used to work for XC when it was first privatised with Virgin.

Have to say, it is a shadow of what it used to be. We used to call XC the Cinderella TOC then, it's even more so now. Maybe an ugly sister.....

Travelled with XC over last couple of days and witnessed how different it is compared to other intercity TOCS. Real shame that it is not treated as a proper long distance franchise with decent length trains, better comfort and generally just a bit better.....

I do wonder if one day, the XC franchise will go altogether. The Stansted and Leicester trains could go to a Midland group, Scotland to West Country to EC or GWR, Manchester to the SE or SW to West Coast, Midland or SWT? Finally, give the Cardiff services to Wales franchise.

Time for a real remapping?!

Virgin started the rot with Operation Princess! It has been said time and time again 4 and 5 car trains were a disaster from day one!
The franchise needs a bit of long term forward thinking and a decent rolling stock programme! None of which can be done in 3 years..

 

[infobleep]

Virgin started the rot with Operation Princess! It has been said time and time again 4 and 5 car trains were a disaster from day one!
The franchise needs a bit of long term forward thinking and a decent rolling stock programme! None of which can be done in 3 years..

South West Trains have had a program of train refurbishment lengthening, not to mention new rolling stock. All this and the franchise is up for tender next year!

Is it not financially economical for the Cross Country services to have increased rolling stock? If it is, what is the reason why they don't allow additional rolling stock to be purchased?

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[SkinnyDave]

South West Trains have had a program of train refurbishment lengthening, not to mention new rolling stock. All this and the franchise is up for tender next year!

Is it not financially economical for the Cross Country services to have increased rolling stock? If it is, what is the reason why they don't allow additional rolling stock to be purchased?

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Abellio started a tender before bring awarded the Scotrail franchise for 385s for a full franchise.
And South West ITT indicated new stock.
Those are not comparable to this current direct award deal for XC although I will concede Virgin did have approval for pendolino lengthening, had it ever been explored to lenghtn Voaygers other than Evoyager concept?
Short answer to your question is there is no stock available in the time frame
Of the direct award

 

[Doctor Fegg]

XC just has the feel of the lackadaisical, don't care, half-hearted feel I get from Arriva as a whole, to be honest. So this doesn't overly surprise me.

There's certainly very little feel of DB in the passenger operations to me. It's just classic old Arriva, and it shows everywhere except Chiltern - I think the latter must have enough of their old Laing management around to avoid it.

Spot on.

I was going to say that CrossCountry increasingly has the feel of Central Trains about it, but CT invested over and above their contracted minimum - in particular, getting the 170s which weren't a franchise commitment. You get the feeling that Arriva XC wouldn't replace a slashed seat cushion unless they could guarantee funding for it from DfT.

 

[387star]

Will the voyagers get a decent refurbishment at long last do we know

 

[infobleep]

Abellio started a tender before bring awarded the Scotrail franchise for 385s for a full franchise.
And South West ITT indicated new stock.
Those are not comparable to this current direct award deal for XC although I will concede Virgin did have approval for pendolino lengthening, had it ever been explored to lenghtn Voaygers other than Evoyager concept?
Short answer to your question is there is no stock available in the time frame
Of the direct award

I thought stock was leased from rolling stock companies because franchises don't last long enough.

If that is the case then surely it doesn't matter how long a direct award is.

If South West Trains had agreed a direct award, would they have had no additional rolling stock or was their direct award due to be long enough to allow new rolling stock?

I don't see why awards should be relevant, if the point of leaving rolling stock leasing companies is so it can be used beyond a franchises lifetime.

I don't work in the industry so may be someone can explain why it is the way it is.

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[DDB]

Some leaflets entitled "Moving forward together" have appeared in my local station. I think they are actually for staff and have been put out by mistake because they list improvements such as "Provision of dedicated employee information screens in messrooms" and "New mobile application to ensure our employees have better information than customers". They do have more details about the HSTs. I quote "Fitment of automatic doors and controlled emission toilets (CET) to the HST fleet to allow them to operate beyond 2020"
DDB

 

[The Planner]

I do wonder if one day, the XC franchise will go altogether. The Stansted and Leicester trains could go to a Midland group, Scotland to West Country to EC or GWR, Manchester to the SE or SW to West Coast, Midland or SWT? Finally, give the Cardiff services to Wales franchise.

Time for a real remapping?!

I think there could be some mileage in that.

 

[dk1]

Can't see either of them wanting it.

Offer them enough subsidy for them to make a healthy profit & I can't imagine any complaints. Failing that when the franchise comes up for renewal simply drop it in.

 

[najaB]

Offer them enough subsidy for them to make a healthy profit & I can't imagine any complaints. Failing that when the franchise comes up for renewal simply drop it in.

If anything, Scotland to the South West fits VTWC better than VTEC - they already have crew based in Birmingham and operate Voyagers.

 

[Class 170101]

This was to be resourced by diagramming 26 out of 29 170's in service every day (currently it's 25 out of 29) with provision to use the hot standby Voyager at New Street for the 1739 Brum-Derby if short of units...

Have they enough currently do do even this with damaged Class 170s out of service? I know until recently they were using 3 and 4 HSTs to release Voyagers to cover 170 work.

 

[plcd1]

I thought stock was leased from rolling stock companies because franchises don't last long enough.

If that is the case then surely it doesn't matter how long a direct award is.

If South West Trains had agreed a direct award, would they have had no additional rolling stock or was their direct award due to be long enough to allow new rolling stock?

I don't see why awards should be relevant, if the point of leaving rolling stock leasing companies is so it can be used beyond a franchises lifetime.

I don't work in the industry so may be someone can explain why it is the way it is.

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I am happy to be corrected but I think the crucial issue is the DfT here. If their strategy is to add rolling stock to a franchise and they will mandate its ongoing use across a change of franchise then there's no real risk. This is why train orders for SWT have been placed and why major works at Waterloo are going ahead. There's a plan which is funded to try to get capacity up and overcrowding down. Even though the new franchise ITT implies a lot of new stock there is old stock to be got rid of although possibly at the cost of the DC drive conversion ending up being wasted.

I don't know XC very well but the comments here suggest there is a dependency on the release of stock (Meridians) from the Midland Main Line once that line is electrified. If nothing else the stock would be broadly compatible with the Voyagers. A wild guess on my part is that XC is not an easy franchise to run well. There are obviously a load of problems for services that run into any city or mdderately busy town. Given so many trains run longish distances you get into a bind about lugging long trains over long distances when you possibly only need the full capacity over a short stretch of route at peak times. (I accept that's a generalisation before I'm taken to task). The issue then becomes one of allocating the right trains to the right services or even the right franchise if you want to relieve, say, overcrowding between Oxford and Birmingham. I've never experienced a horrifically overcrowded XC train but I have seen busy services so there must be a case for more capacity but it's all about how much the DfT want to spend and what their view of the return is.

Putting any particular "pet hates" about specific rolling stock to one side I suspect a fair amount of the Voyagers concentrated on services through the Midlands to Yorkshire could probably be doubled in length without much issue. Ideally you'd want long trains (9 cars?) to do the real long distance Scotland / NE / NW - SW / South Coast. Finally for the other routes you could probably run to 6 car DMUs or even bi-modes for Stansted - Brum / Nott - Cardiff. The other factor for the future is what happens post East-West rail and whether XC services get rerouted that way or new ones are created. That may have a bearing on service patterns, rolling stock quantities and types. If the DfT have a strategy for XC it's clearly not ready to be made public hence the very conservative approach to the direct award. I expect DfT will want a lot more certainty about the progress of electrification programmes before committing to any substantive changes for XC.

The above is based on little direct knowledge so treat it with some caution. I dare say the resident XC experts will give a more nuanced view.

 

[Minilad]

If anything, Scotland to the South West fits VTWC better than VTEC - they already have crew based in Birmingham and operate Voyagers.

No they don't.

 

[najaB]

No they don't.

My mistake, I was sure I've experienced a crew change at Birmingham in the past. It's certainly an operational hub of their network, even if no crew are based there.

 

[Elecman]

Isn't the Virgin crew depot at Wolverhampton?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

My mistake, I was sure I've experienced a crew change at Birmingham in the past.

Crew changes can happen anywhere though All you really need to host a crew change is a PNB point and a bit of operational flexibility in case something goes wrong. I was at Swindon last week and they changed drivers coming off the Golden Valley, however no onboard staff are based there.

On VT, Drivers (and I'm presuming Train Managers) are based at Wolves in the West Midlands, not sure about the Catering crews.

 

[najaB]

On VT, Drivers (and I'm presuming Train Managers) are based at Wolves in the West Midlands, not sure about the Catering crews.

That's closer than any VTEC crew would be based in that part of the world. So it still makes more sense that Scotland to the South West goes to them than VTEC - they operate Voyagers and have crew based near the middle of the route.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

That's closer than any VTEC crew would be based in that part of the world. So it still makes more sense that Scotland to the South West goes to them than VTEC - they operate Voyagers and have crew based near the middle of the route.

Surely you'd just use the old CrossCountry staff transferred over from the old franchise though? Given how big the depot would be if you had essentially half of XC New St and all of VT Wolves combined you'd end up with links (and routecards thereof) anyway, which would most likely split them back up into XC and WC groups. If that is the case it doesn't matter who runs it since they'd essentially be separate pools anyway.

 

[najaB]

Surely you'd just use the old CrossCountry staff transferred over from the old franchise though? Given how big the depot would be if you had essentially half of XC New St and all of VT Wolves combined you'd end up with links (and routecards thereof) anyway, which would most likely split them back up into XC and WC groups. If that is the case it doesn't matter who runs it since they'd essentially be separate pools anyway.

Oh, the XC people would be TUPE transferred over, no doubt. But if XC is getting carved up and split various ways you might have the opportunity to move staff around. It just seems that if you *were* going to move Scotland to the South West to either of VTEC and VTWC it seems a closer match to the latter than the former.

 

[6Gman]

I thought stock was leased from rolling stock companies because franchises don't last long enough.

If that is the case then surely it doesn't matter how long a direct award is.

If South West Trains had agreed a direct award, would they have had no additional rolling stock or was their direct award due to be long enough to allow new rolling stock?

I don't see why awards should be relevant, if the point of leaving rolling stock leasing companies is so it can be used beyond a franchises lifetime.

I don't work in the industry so may be someone can explain why it is the way it is.

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It's quite simple.

300 passengers - 250 seats = profit

300 passengers - 320 seats = lower profits

End of.

 

[driver_m]

The catering staff are also Wolves based.

 

[jayah]

Yes, or you can do what most people do and drive, because it's so often cheaper or quicker, or both. Unless you can be convinced that parting with very significant cash for a train ticket is worth it because you can make use of the time onboard working, perhaps with a reliable Internet connection making all the difference...
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Where did you get all of this from..?

Bizarre that anyone would complain about a cost that genuinely improves the service. If costs are that important to you, why are you not also very unhappy at the cost of vinyling trains completely unnecessary so that they carry a particular brand? That adds much less value than providing a reliable Internet connection.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/jul/06/trains-free-high-speed-internet-90m-pounds

£90m is a fantastic amount of money given most of this thread is about terrible crowding on the XC franchise which £90m could have actually fixed.

People already have data packages. Instead of actually improving the service, they are just wasting taxpayers money providing something for free that people would pay for if they didn't. If franchises (not DfT) are wasting x,y,z on something else, fine, but that doesn't excuse anything.

Part of the £90m coming from the DfT fining NR for poor performance just makes it even worse.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think the current HST leases are on a daily or mileage basis, unlike the Voyagers.
XC has also been under the cosh for years to get out of revenue support from the DfT.
The economics probably now justifies more stock, but over the next 3 years there isn't any to be had, so maximising the HST work is the best they can do.
I suspect the DfT wants the dominos to fall on ICWC and East Midlands renewals before it contemplates the longer term for XC.
That will determine the future for the rest of the 22x fleet.

From their franchise agreement:

Planning to meet Target Passenger Demand
The Franchisee shall also, in preparing its Train Plan, unless the Secretary of
State otherwise agrees, use all reasonable endeavours to:
(a) provide for passenger carrying capacity on each Passenger Service that
meets as a minimum the Target Passenger Demand for that Passenger
Service; and
(b) provide passengers with a reasonable expectation of a seat:
(i) on boarding in respect of any Off-Peak Passenger Service; and
(ii) 20 minutes after boarding (or such other time period as the
Secretary of State may stipulate) in respect of any Peak
Passenger Service.

They are currently using 3 on Monday and Friday, 2 Tuesday - Thursday and 4 at weekends in summer and 2 on winter Saturdays, 4 on Sundays.
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There are National Express and Megabus, both of which say on their websites they are going to expand their free wifi offer. Round here the bus routes in competition with the train already have free wifi.

Surely one big selling point of a train is the ability to work on board, but this increasingly requires internet access, so working on the train starts to cost money, which might be saved if I drove instead and reached home or a hotel faster, where the internet connection is already paid for.

Also, of course, with the amount of time people spend on their phones these days there are probably a fair few for whom the thought of going a whole hour without a connection would persuade them to use a much slower bus where they can fill the time uploading selfies.

Plus, when your local bus has free wifi, the lack of it on trains further entrenches views of the railway as old fashioned, stuck in the past. I don't know if such views still exist in areas with better trains, but they certainly do here in pacer land.

I don't know the economics of installing such wifi systems though, so if the costs outweigh the benefits, then as a taxpayer I say we shouldn't have it.

Taking longer and being unproductive while driving to a free hotel with WiFi is not going to be more productive than using your own data package on a high speed train.

Similarly only a tiny minority of people are going to spend hours extra on a coach because it has free WiFi. The cost of food and drink in taking much longer will outweigh any benefit given that almost anyone with a smart phone already has data. Rail users generally hate coaches with a passion and people using coaches are doing so because it is usually far cheaper than long distance rail, not because of free WiFi.

 

[Kettledrum]

I don't know XC very well but the comments here suggest there is a dependency on the release of stock (Meridians) from the Midland Main Line once that line is electrified. If nothing else the stock would be broadly compatible with the Voyagers. A wild guess on my part is that XC is not an easy franchise to run well. There are obviously a load of problems for services that run into any city or mdderately busy town. Given so many trains run longish distances you get into a bind about lugging long trains over long distances when you possibly only need the full capacity over a short stretch of route at peak times.

.

You are right that XC is not an easy franchise to run well, but please don't give XC too much benefit of the doubt.

The conscious decision to keep half their HST fleet parked up in sidings (to save leasing costs) whilst customers get squeezed into some of the most over crowded trains outside the south west was disgraceful. It may have been permitted in the poorly-written franchise, and may enable the company to maximise profits, but it's clearly putting corporate greed ahead of the interests of passengers.

As someone who regularly gets crushed on some of their services, I am well placed to comment.

The main reason it's not an easy franchise to run, is that there are more chances of trains being delayed, because of the length of the network, An incident in Scotland can result in cancellations or punctuality issues on the South Coast for example.

...and there is the challenge of getting your trains through the Birmingham New street congestion all day.

If XC could get its hands on any displaced diesel rolling stock from EMT after electrification, then it could make a huge difference.