Arriva CrossCountry contract extended through to October 2019

[Blindtraveler]

well I dont think I'll be rushing to try out some of these improvements to be honest. Im sure that the HST upgrades will be welcome though

 

[47802]

The actual quote is:


Assuming that it is per year (which it doesn't say), then yes 39,000/365 = 107 extra seats per day.

However, as far as I am aware there are no peaks on Saturdays, Sundays and Bank Holidays. As such it should be 365-52-52-8=253 days. As such 39,000/253=154 extra seats per day.

Yes that is still not a lot, however it says "through Leeds, Birmingham and Bristol" which implies that those extra seats are through those three places during peak times, as such it could well be that there are more than one service in each direction.

A bit of extra use of the HST's means more 22x's that could be used elsewhere. Even just swapping some 5 coach units (which are released by some HSTs for 4 coach units and then pairing up the 4 coach units to release more 5 coach units could have quite an impact on the number of seats over the whole network.

Overall its fairly poor though I would have expected bringing in at least a couple more HST sets to ease capacity bearing in mind this is likely to be what you are getting for at least the next 5 years, given the extension is for 3 years and then its likely to take at least a couple of years for the new franchisee to make significant changes.

 

[yorksrob]

Perhaps they will be able to take a few HST's from East Coast when the Azuma's start coming in.

 

[swt_passenger]

Perhaps they will be able to take a few HST's from East Coast when the Azuma's start coming in.

It's only a 3 year direct award. By the time EC have given up many HST's this contract will have about a year left to run. I wouldn't bank on them doing anything other than what has been announced today.

 

[alexl92]

On the subject of Wifi, for me as a passenger it's hugely important. Contracts with sufficient 4G data to be able to use it properly over a month are still relatively expensive as the networks are trying to push it as being a premium product we should be grateful to them for. Despite o2 and 3's claims, the network for 3G/4G data is still very patchy, especially on the move, and using data drains phone battery almost as much as playing games.

In other words, without Wifi on the train, if I wanted to use my laptop for emailing or whatever, I'd have to have my phone using valuable expensive data to create a personal hotspot, which doesn't always work properly anyway even between a macbook and iphone, whilst my phone's battery drains at a rate that would see it dead in about 2.5 hours. Add in taking a call or similar and all of a sudden my phone's dead before I've reached my destination.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I'd give serious consideration to coach in that case...

Really? To sit on the M1?

XC may be poor but Leeds to Birmingham is not that bad. Especially as you are pretty much guaranteed a seat at some point due to the volumes of people who get off at each station even at rush hour.

Regular route with work for me and while its not great or even its terrible. The coach is by far the worst option.

 

[The Ham]

Overall its fairly poor though I would have expected bringing in at least a couple more HST sets to ease capacity bearing in mind this is likely to be what you are getting for at least the next 5 years, given the extension is for 3 years and then its likely to take at least a couple of years for the new franchisee to make significant changes.

I fear that we have been spoilt by some of the recent extensions (chiefly GWR), in reality there was little that XC would be able to have achieved given that there is little spare stock available early on in the extension period.

I would expect that there will be some other smaller improvements that are harder to put in big headline figures (i.e. the doubling up of Voyagers on some key services) and as such once the details come out there could be some nice extras.

 

[daikilo]

I agree with others that the wording of these announcements needs to be improved e.g.
1) "more modern trains" is probably intended to mean "more-modern trains" and possibly only applies to the HST power-doors and Wi-Fi then 4G updates.
2) "39000 seats in the peak" could actually mean "and 39000 less in the off-peak" or some game of additional trains on certain days resulting from the accélérations

Also, I am curious as to why the government is spending 20million on Rolling stock which I thought was owned by a ROSCO. Did neither the ROSCO nor Arriva wish to pay (maybe logical if there is no guarantee on use after 2019, or is it a contribution to a more expensive upgrade.

 

[jzw95]

I wish TOCs and government would stop wasting money on wifi; the overwhelming trend is for customers to have their own internet enabled devices.

1. Many people still don't have large data allowances on their phones.
2. If using a tablet or laptop on the train, it's far preferable to have WiFi provided in any case.
3. Even if you do have enough data on your phone, reception comes and goes, much better to have the train's WiFi which benefits from better antennae and ideally multi-network connections.
4. Visitors from other countries won't have data or it will be very expensive.

The last three are particularly relevant on long-distance routes. The train needs to play to its strengths – being able to sit at a table and use your tablet/laptop, or even your phone reliably is a definite strength. It particularly helps with the attractiveness of taking the train instead of driving, flying, or the coach on both long and short journeys.

If there was no or declining demand for it, I don't know why the overwhelming majority of bus companies and cafes (both small independent and chains) 'waste' their money on providing WiFi. It's important to consider that when you have a system which carries millions of passengers a day, there are going to be a wide variety of experiences. I, for one, am extremely pleased that free (and fast) WiFi is finally spreading across the GB rail network.

 

[The Ham]

Working the existing HST sets harder, and utilising the spare cars from 221144 to form 3 x 4-car units from 2 x 5-car ones.

As pointed out above it's not a great increase in seats on a daily basis, so my current commute home will only continue to become more crowded as time goes on if passenger numbers continue to grow.

Let us assume that there are three diagrams which are currently 5 car 221s which can be replaced by HSTs and that 2 of the 5 car 221s become 4 car ones to enable an extra 4 car unit to be brought into service then the following could happen:

3 x 5 car units released from duties (3 diagrams improved)
two of these units are used to create the extra unit (i.e. 2x5 become 3x4)
those two units get run as a pair to release a 5 car unit (4 diagrams improved)
that unit and the third one released by a HST release two more 4 car units (6 diagrams improved)
They then become paired up to release a 5 car unit (7 diagrams improved)
the 5 car unit releases a 4 car unit (8 diagrams improved)
another 5 car unit swaps duties with a 4 car unit which pairs with the above unit (10 diagrams improved)

Assuming that all the Voyagers (57 units) only ever run one diagram and there are no spares then the above would mean that about 17% of all services would see an increase in capacity. As soon as you remove (say) 5 units for spares then you are getting on for 20% of all services.

Some of those capacity improvements could be reasonable, such as:
- 5 car 221 to HST = 114% increase in capacity (i.e. over double what is current)
- Pair of 4 car 220s to HST = 34% increase in capacity
- 5 car 221 to a pair of 220s = 60% increase in capacity
- 4 car 22x to 5 car 221 = 25% increase in capacity

 

[sprinterguy]

Let us assume that there are three diagrams which are currently 5 car 221s which can be replaced by HSTs...

You won't get a fleet utilisation of 5 out of 5 HST sets (2 being the current base level on a weekday).

At most I'd expect that the 06:40 York - Plymouth/13:25 Plymouth - Edinburgh (Currently HST on a Monday only) and 06:32 Dundee - Plymouth/17:25 Plymouth - Leeds (Currently HST on a Friday only) diagrams will be HST operated throughout the week, or something very similar. Obviously this does then allow for a modest re-arrangement of Voyager diagrams in a similar manner to that which you have outlined, but to a lesser extent.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Also, I am curious as to why the government is spending 20million on Rolling stock which I thought was owned by a ROSCO. Did neither the ROSCO nor Arriva wish to pay (maybe logical if there is no guarantee on use after 2019, or is it a contribution to a more expensive upgrade.

Maybe it's part of a wider deal to get a certain number of HSTs up to TSI-PRM compliance by 2020.
Arriva wouldn't need the upgrade for its 3-year contract, but DfT knows they will be needed after 2020.
It would be completely uneconomic to have a bespoke upgrade for 4 units, so maybe it includes the EMT sets for instance?
It kicks the can a bit further down the road until MML electrification releases Meridians for XC.
Arriva will probably Chilternise the XC HSTs.

 

[TheBigD]

Utterly underwhelming...

No capacity increase on any of the 170 routes...
No capacity increase on the Manchester-Bournmeouth services through Reading... Same for the Newcastle-Southampton and Manchester-Bristol services...

Yes there's a paltry increase on the Edinburgh-Plymouth route but nothing that will make e real impact...

Am I right in thinking that Great Central get the FGW 180s during 2017 to replace their HSTs??? Shame these aren't XC bound...

 

[dk1]

I'd give serious consideration to coach in that case...

Good Lord, that really would be desperation levels

 

[WelshBluebird]

Bit unsure why free WiFi is going to take until mid 2018 considering they already have paid WiFi. Maybe to do with a current contract or something?

 

[The Ham]

Utterly underwhelming...

No capacity increase on any of the 170 routes...
No capacity increase on the Manchester-Bournmeouth services through Reading... Same for the Newcastle-Southampton and Manchester-Bristol services...

Yes there's a paltry increase on the Edinburgh-Plymouth route but nothing that will make e real impact...

Am I right in thinking that Great Central get the FGW 180s during 2017 to replace their HSTs??? Shame these aren't XC bound...

There is only no stated increase on the other Voyager routes, I wouldn't be surprised if that there is going to be some (similar to that I have listed above, but possibly on a slightly smaller scale) increase by using HSTs to free up and then rearrange Voyager usage.

 

[dk1]

Utterly underwhelming...

No capacity increase on any of the 170 routes...
No capacity increase on the Manchester-Bournmeouth services through Reading... Same for the Newcastle-Southampton and Manchester-Bristol services...

Yes there's a paltry increase on the Edinburgh-Plymouth route but nothing that will make e real impact...

Am I right in thinking that Great Central get the FGW 180s during 2017 to replace their HSTs??? Shame these aren't XC bound...

Grand Central getting the 180s to unite their fleet. There was a report recently that stated there was a business case to increase capacity on the Plymouth-Edinburgh route but the case was poor value for money on the routes via Reading.

 

[najaB]

Bit unsure why free WiFi is going to take until mid 2018 considering they already have paid WiFi. Maybe to do with a current contract or something?

Do they have it on all the fleet? I know the HSTs and Voyagers do, what about the 170s?

 

[ainsworth74]

Fair enough, I hadn't read about the power doors when I posted, in my minds eye £20m looked like the sort of figure that a quick tart up to the fleet would cost.

Actually I rather suspect that after the PRM-TSI (also known as DDA compliance) work is done that there won't be much left for anything else!

 

[WelshBluebird]

Do they have it on all the fleet? I know the HSTs and Voyagers do, what about the 170s?

I think they do. It has been a year or so since I've been on a 170 so not 100% sure, but their website does state "Enjoy WiFi on all CrossCountry trains".

 

[nuneatonmark]

What a surprise, nothing about the Brum to Stansted and Leicester line. The sooner this service is given to a TOC that gives a toss the better. As for Voyagers, I took a Voyager between Tamworth and Leeds (return) over the last few days. It was fine but I had a reserved table seat. The only problem with them is that they are at least 2 carriages short. If Virgin had to lengthen a bunch of Pendos for their direct award why not XC and Voyagers?

 

[47802]

https://vimeo.com/184808769/cd57418360

Confirms extra capacity comes from greater use of HST's which will be fitted with sliding doors, and having 3x4 Car Voyagers to replace 2x5 Car Voyagers using the spare driving cars.

Highly unimpressive stuff, well actually pathetic would be more accurate, maybe that's one of the many reasons why i'm not an MD but I would be embarrassed to announce that.

 

[swt_passenger]

The DfT's annual seats calculation may just be the 2 Voyager cars then, because all those HST seats already exist, they just don't get used much.

If the 39,000 per year is the 'extra' Voyager, but there are other extra seats from higher HST utilisation, perhaps the latter cannot happen while the existing HSTs are being modified, so they aren't included in the DfT figures for Dec 17, and will come later?

 

[3141]

The DfT's annual seats calculation may just be the 2 Voyager cars then, because all those HST seats already exist, they just don't get used much.

If the 39,000 per year is the 'extra' Voyager, but there are other extra seats from higher HST utilisation, perhaps the latter cannot happen while the existing HSTs are being modified, so they aren't included in the DfT figures for Dec 17, and will come later?

That is logical. But it would be out of character for the DfT to restrain itself so much as not to announce an increase in capacity, even if it wasn't going to happen just yet. And if it announced it now, it would be able to announce it again when it actually occurred.

Still, disappointing as the plans may be, I don't think much could realistically be expected for XC, given the absence of any other suitable rolling stock. What we are seeing is another example of the fallout from DfT's blunder over the Inter-City West Coast award four years ago.

 

[TheKnightWho]

This is pathetic, really. I seriously hope we see AT300s replacing the fleet with the next franchise.

 

[The Ham]

https://vimeo.com/184808769/cd57418360

Confirms extra capacity comes from greater use of HST's which will be fitted with sliding doors, and having 3x4 Car Voyagers to replace 2x5 Car Voyagers using the spare driving cars.

Highly unimpressive stuff, well actually pathetic would be more accurate, maybe that's one of the many reasons why i'm not an MD but I would be embarrassed to announce that.

On a very basic level just the creation of the 3x4 from 2x5 using the spare driving cars would allow half the services run by one of 5 car units to be run by a pair of 4 car units whilst the other sees a drop in capacity from a 5 car to a 4 car.

Let's assume that the two trains are ones that follow one after the other or a route that is 4 hours end to end (say Bristol to Leeds) and runs an hourly service with all the other units also 5 car units.

For each 8 hours that would mean a change from 2,000 seats to 2,200 seats. Yes those extra 200 seats are not evenly spread, as they would be an extra 100 in each direction. However, as hinted at above, it could be that the one service that sees a drop of 50 seats follows the service has an increase of 150 seats.

However, it could well be that by using the HSTs a little more that a current service that is formed with a pair of 220's is replaced by a HST, allowing that pair to be used on another service which is currently a 221. That in turn replaces a 220 which pairs up with another 220 and swaps duties with a 221.

The HST, the two pairs of 220's and the two 221's could then (with only one extra HST being need) be used to increase capacity on a mix of services, no single one being large enough to give the sort of capacity increase announced. However, none the less there could be some extra capacity on some of the other Voyager run services which will only come out when the full timetable is announced.

 

[HowardGWR]

If I were Mick Cash, I would say 'instead of jam tomorrow, this is gruel tomorrow, while a foreign-owned firm continues to milk British passengers to bolster their ill-gotten........' cnt'd on page 94.

Perhaps he would have a point this time - and why has no one mentioned that there was no proposal to end the bogs smelling?

 

[The Ham]

The DfT's annual seats calculation may just be the 2 Voyager cars then, because all those HST seats already exist, they just don't get used much.

If the 39,000 per year is the 'extra' Voyager, but there are other extra seats from higher HST utilisation, perhaps the latter cannot happen while the existing HSTs are being modified, so they aren't included in the DfT figures for Dec 17, and will come later?

Could it be that the Grand Central HSTs could be used to cover for missing XC HSTs whilst the XC sets go for modification?

I would assume that the DfT don't want to say that they can as otherwise they could be left to fund the lease costs from the time Grand Central stop using them until after all the works are complete, yet nearer the time (if no other operator has need of them) they could announce it as the ROSCO could be willing to negotiate a low cost short term lease if they are otherwise sat idle.

 

[absolutelymilk]

Bit unsure why free WiFi is going to take until mid 2018 considering they already have paid WiFi. Maybe to do with a current contract or something?

Presumably if they make it free then lots more people will use it, so they need to upgrade the hardware on the trains.

 

[Mordac]

It's a direct award three year extension, I don't see why everyone is acting so surprised at the paltry changes. The EMT and West Coast ones didn't have any rolling stock changes either.

The free wifi everywhere and slightly more use out of the HSTs was the high-water mark for my expectations, so I'm quite pleased.