Boris unveils the first roadworthy Borismaster

[Via Bank]

I genuinely don't see how anyone could ever enforce a "remain in your seat until the bus has stopped" policy. I've been injured (slightly) in the past when a bus driver performed an emergency stop when I was getting up to alight: this did result in a complaint to the bus company, but it was only as part of a list of failings of that particular driver (viz. singing and swearing coming from the cab, dangerous driving round roundabouts, failure to stop upon the bell being rung, etc.) I'd certainly never have dreamed of seeking compensation from the bus company.

I always understood the "please remain seated until the bus has stopped" signs as disclaiming the bus company from any responsibility if you choose to stand while the bus is in motion, rather than a steadfastly-enforced rule.

 

[Mojo]

In my opinion people should be encouraged to stand up before the bus has stopped. It reduces dwell time at stops. Say what you like about Brummies (and believe me, I've said a lot about them) but they don't fanny around when getting on/off buses like people in other towns and cities, which can only be a good thing.

 

[BestWestern]

This thing will be an absolute bloody nightmare to drive. Doors all over the place, sometimes in use and sometimes not, a Conductor on from time to time but not very often, and hardly any seats so a busload of standees obstructing the endless 'flow' to and from all those doors....mayhem!

From the mention of Conductors I presume that tickets will be sold on board these? In which case when they're runnning in OMO mode most people will presumably just enter via one of the other sets of doors, helping to contribute to the ludicrous levels of fare dodging which take place on London's buses. Still, it takes over nicely from the same situation on the artics I guess. How exactly does part-time Conductor provision work? Will they do varying hours, or all work the same times of the day? In which case, what will they do for the rest of their shifts?!

I really don't know why we don't just bite the bullet and proclaim all of London's public transport to be free, there is clearly an extraordinary amount of spare money sloshing around up there. I'd have thought TfL could probably solve the global debt crisis with a budget like theirs! :roll:

 

[lookingforit35]

How about everyone taking a deep breath and waiting to see what they are like in service before getting so grumpy?

OK, they might be awful. But I do think taking some risks and being adventurous with design is a good thing, as if you dont try something you'll never know.

I remember thinking airline style seating on trains would be dreadful, now it's my preference on my commute. And remember the fuss over London Eye? I thought it was the most dismal abuse of the London skyline ever. But now I really appreciate it.

So, as I believe young people say, "Take a chill pill"!!

 

[Schnellzug]

This thing will be an absolute bloody nightmare to drive. Doors all over the place, sometimes in use and sometimes not, a Conductor on from time to time but not very often, and hardly any seats so a busload of standees obstructing the endless 'flow' to and from all those doors....mayhem!

From the mention of Conductors I presume that tickets will be sold on board these? In which case when they're runnning in OMO mode most people will presumably just enter via one of the other sets of doors, helping to contribute to the ludicrous levels of fare dodging which take place on London's buses. Still, it takes over nicely from the same situation on the artics I guess. How exactly does part-time Conductor provision work? Will they do varying hours, or all work the same times of the day? In which case, what will they do for the rest of their shifts?!

I think from what it said somewhere, they won't actually sell tickets, they'll just be there to keep an eye on the Platform and generally be a source of tourist information. Maybe they'll recruit them on a voluntary basis or something.

I really don't know why we don't just bite the bullet and proclaim all of London's public transport to be free, there is clearly an extraordinary amount of spare money sloshing around up there. I'd have thought TfL could probably solve the global debt crisis with a budget like theirs! :roll:

It does seem to exist according to different laws of physics to the rest of the country, doesn't it.
:-?

 

[tbtc]

Maybe they'll recruit them on a voluntary basis or something

Ah, the Big Society...

 

[Deerfold]

I really don't know why we don't just bite the bullet and proclaim all of London's public transport to be free, there is clearly an extraordinary amount of spare money sloshing around up there. I'd have thought TfL could probably solve the global debt crisis with a budget like theirs! :roll:

TfL is cutting costs quite sharply. I know quite a few people who've had to leave over the last couple of years. There's a lot of bus routes being tendered to use existing vehicles. There's quite a few people annoyed that's happening at the same time as millions are being thrown at the removal of bendybuses and the development of the Borisbus with several projects haviong been cencelled or cut back (Countdown II was once supposed to provide 4000 bus stops with signs but is only going to have just over 2500).

 

[tbtc]

I really don't know why we don't just bite the bullet and proclaim all of London's public transport to be free, there is clearly an extraordinary amount of spare money sloshing around up there. I'd have thought TfL could probably solve the global debt crisis with a budget like theirs! :roll:

Not an impossible idea.

The cost of getting people sloshing around London efficiently, keeping the economy ticking and minimising congestion is such that you could argue that the time saved by boarding for "free" would be worth the cost of running a bus with no revenue (on a "big" scale).

I appreciate that it will never work like that, and you'd have to deal with anti social behaviour on buses, but the time saved by getting people moving quickly, and the economic benefits of encouraging people to be able to move around the city quickly are worth a lot to the city (maybe a lot more than the cost of running the bus).
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TfL is cutting costs quite sharply. I know quite a few people who've had to leave over the last couple of years. There's a lot of bus routes being tendered to use existing vehicles. There's quite a few people annoyed that's happening at the same time as millions are being thrown at the removal of bendybuses and the development of the Borisbus with several projects haviong been cencelled or cut back (Countdown II was once supposed to provide 4000 bus stops with signs but is only going to have just over 2500).

Are frequencies on the ex-bendy routes being maintained/ enhanced?

 

[radamfi]

Not an impossible idea.

The cost of getting people sloshing around London efficiently, keeping the economy ticking and minimising congestion is such that you could argue that the time saved by boarding for "free" would be worth the cost of running a bus with no revenue (on a "big" scale).

Free boarding is hardly a revolutionary idea. It is commonplace across Europe. Britain is one of the few countries in Europe where all tickets are usually inspected while boarding buses.

Are frequencies on the ex-bendy routes being maintained/ enhanced?

Frequencies were enhanced considerably in some cases, especially on the early conversions to double decker. Lots of people consider these routes e.g. 38 to be now grossly overbussed. This was presumably to ensure that there were no complaints about the conversion from bendy and to maximise the political capital from the conversion.

 

[Ivo]

To given an example of an ex-bedny route, service 18 (Euston to Sudbury) now runs every 4 minutes.

 

[Deerfold]

Frequencies were enhanced considerably in some cases, especially on the early conversions to double decker. Lots of people consider these routes e.g. 38 to be now grossly overbussed. This was presumably to ensure that there were no complaints about the conversion from bendy and to maximise the political capital from the conversion.

Some of the early conversions saw big jumps in frequency. Route 521 in the peak went from 15-17 bph to 24-30 bph.

The more recent conversions have lower overall capacity - especially offpeak.

Route 12 now runs 15 bph at peaks and 12 bph during the day - with bendies it ran at 12 bph at peak and during the day. The evening service of 8 bph is also unchanged.
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To given an example of an ex-bedny route, service 18 (Euston to Sudbury) now runs every 4 minutes.

18 runs every 4 minutes during the day (was every 5 with bendies).
Every 3 minutes during the am peak (was every 4)
Every 3.33333 minutes during the pm peak (was every 4)

So whilst it is very frequent, it was pretty frequent to begin with!

 

[radamfi]

Ironically the new buses for 507/521 have virtually no seats, which was one of the main complaints about bendy buses. These routes have also retained free boarding.

The route 25 timetable change was particularly unusual. Because of the introduction of short workings, the Monday to Saturday daytime service between Oxford Circus and Holborn Circus is only every 7-8 minutes which is bizarrely almost the least frequent time it runs. It is only slightly better than the weekday overnight service which is every 8 minutes. The previous bendy service was every 5-6 minutes on this section so there is quite a reduction in capacity (i.e. seated+standing) on this portion of the route.

The most frequent service on the 25 on this section is on Sunday daytime when it is every 5 minutes throughout the whole route. It is every 6 minutes in the late evening, 7 days a week, and every 6 minutes on Saturday and Sunday early mornings.

 

[Deerfold]

Ironically the new buses for 507/521 have virtually no seats, which was one of the main complaints about bendy buses. These routes have also retained free boarding.

The buses used on these services are basically the front end of a bendy.

The route 25 timetable change was particularly unusual. The Monday to Saturday daytime service between Oxford Circus and Holborn Circus is only every 7-8 minutes which is bizarrely almost the least frequent time it runs. It is only slightly better than the weekday overnight service which is every 8 minutes. The previous bendy service was every 5-6 minutes on this section so there is quite a reduction in capacity (i.e. seated+standing) on this portion of the route.

The most frequent service on the 25 on this section is on Sunday daytime when it is every 5 minutes throughout the whole route. It is every 6 minutes in the late evening, 7 days a week, and every 6 minutes on Saturday and Sunday early mornings.

That may have happened anyway as part of the project to reduce the number of buses (and thus the congestion) passing along Oxford Street. The number of buses along Oxford Streety has reduced by about 20% over the last couple of years despite some frequency increases for some routes which run along it. It was easiest to introduce it with a new contract.

For anyone who doesn't know the route, only half the buses on the route run the section between Oxford Circus and Holborn circus Monday - Saturday. Evenings and weekends all buses run all of the route so this section actually has a higher frequency at these times.

 

[Schnellzug]

Ironically the new buses for 507/521 have virtually no seats, which was one of the main complaints about bendy buses. These routes have also retained free boarding..

Don't they use Citaro rigids on those now vice artics? Those were routes where the artics were suited; limited stop services catering for large commuter flows. Sweeping aside of Routemasters, introduction of Bendies in the first place, and now the NBFL; it's all just because they're used as a Political football. And this is the main reason why I'd much rather politicians didn't have control of public transport, however much many people may yearn for it to be the case everywhere.
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Although like bus timetables as a whole, all this talk of "every 4 minutes" or "every 5 or 6 minutes" or whatever is all academic, really, isn't it, since Bus timetables can only ever be an estimate or a hope, as it's impossible to time them to that precision given traffic and everything else.

 

[Deerfold]

Although like bus timetables as a whole, all this talk of "every 4 minutes" or "every 5 or 6 minutes" or whatever is all academic, really, isn't it, since Bus timetables can only ever be an estimate or a hope, as it's impossible to time them to that precision given traffic and everything else.

True - which is why I usually use X bph - but I was responding in the terms of Ivo's post.

In the 30 bph frequncy on the 521 in the busiest morning peak hour it is very hard to keep buses apart.

 

[radamfi]

And this is the main reason why I'd much rather politicians didn't have control of public transport, however much many people may yearn for it to be the case everywhere.

But the alternative in the UK (i.e. bus deregulation) is even worse. Have other countries (e.g. Switzerland) achieved excellent public transport without deregulation or unnecessary political interference?

 

[HSTEd]

If there are really busses running every five minutes on these routes throughout the day, shouldn't Trolleybusses be considered? If you did the minimum neccesary to put them in (without all the trappings of Bus Rapid Transit that seem to get added in thes days) surely you could make great strides towards improved air quality and improved journey times due to more rapid acceleration.

 

[Nym]

Somwhere where perhaps guided bus lanes could work? Just attach a pantograph to each hybrid bus to charge batteries / run motors...?

Would certanly work on Oxford Road / Wilmslow Road in Manchester, would be a tad complex maybe to get the OHL to work, but I can't see why not, would just need to stop buses overtaking eachother when leaving stops, or have two guided lanes under the Castleford Viaduct with two stops on each lane etc etc. Ways and means to get it to work.

Perhaps where buses will be moving in and out more, use some kind of electrified netting, either way, I think it would be better with a pantograph style system, overhead lines down Oxford and Wilmslow Road, and Chapel St etc, all the major bus lines, and of course it could share power with the Metrolink

 

[Deerfold]

If there are really busses running every five minutes on these routes throughout the day, shouldn't Trolleybusses be considered? If you did the minimum neccesary to put them in (without all the trappings of Bus Rapid Transit that seem to get added in thes days) surely you could make great strides towards improved air quality and improved journey times due to more rapid acceleration.

I'd point out there's 130 service changes on London's 700 routes every year. Doesn't work well with fixed infrastructure.

 

[tbtc]

I wonder whether the Bendis would have been more appreciated if they'd been introduced (say) now, so that there was a decent passage of time between "the end of the Routemasters" and "bendi buses"?

They were always going to struggle to win acceptance when they were directly replacing RMs on some routes (in the way that Voyagers directly replaced most of the remaining long distance loco-hauled routes when they were introduced, so enthusiasts found them hard to love).

Just a thought...

 

[Via Bank]

I'd point out there's 130 service changes on London's 700 routes every year. Doesn't work well with fixed infrastructure.

You could always have bi-mode Borismasters with 'limp home' engines *ducks*

 

[HSTEd]

I'd point out there's 130 service changes on London's 700 routes every year. Doesn't work well with fixed infrastructure.

How about wiring everything?

 

[Schnellzug]

I wonder whether the Bendis would have been more appreciated if they'd been introduced (say) now, so that there was a decent passage of time between "the end of the Routemasters" and "bendi buses"?

They were always going to struggle to win acceptance when they were directly replacing RMs on some routes (in the way that Voyagers directly replaced most of the remaining long distance loco-hauled routes when they were introduced, so enthusiasts found them hard to love).

Just a thought...

i don't know, one difference with that anaology is that the Citaros were pretty high quality vehicles, but they were excessively long, although the analogy with the number of seats is a valid one..
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I'd point out there's 130 service changes on London's 700 routes every year. Doesn't work well with fixed infrastructure.

Might perhaps be an argument for not fiddling about with things so much ...

 

[bb21]

The issue of trolleybuses on high-frequency routes is another example of how politicians are no more than useless. Trolleybus is a mature technology which is highly advanced, however we have to spend millions and billions instead into research for hybrid technology in a bid for cleaner air quality. Much of hybrid technology is in its infancy and is extremely expensive. Most of traffic flow along major trunk routes is unlikely to change significantly over a long time so the relative inflexibility of infrastructure shouldn't really be a problem. Visual pollution? Just another excuse by the NIMBY brigade.

 

[Deerfold]

Might perhaps be an argument for not fiddling about with things so much ...

The theory is that TfL are fairly reactive to changes in demand and travelling patterns, compared with some areas where the bus services stay the same for decades even though people want to get to different places. It's not actually a huge number - it suggests on average a route will see a change every 5 years.

 

[radamfi]

In NL, CH and other European countries, bus changes are usually restricted to once a year, the same date in December when the rail timetables change. This is logical as if you change train times then you need to change the corresponding connecting bus times.

 

[jon0844]

Even out here in the sticks, there are a number of route/timetable tweaks every 6 months or so. But, of course, we're not so good at matching bus times with train times (such that some buses leave my station forecourt 1-2 minutes before a train arrives from London that will be packed with people!).

However, I'd say there are a few core routes that TfL could potentially 'nail down' and fix.. although London isn't exactly blessed with loads of with room.

 

[Schnellzug]

How about wiring everything?

Why not wire the main corridors, such as those used by the main routes from Central London, and have bi-mode, so that they could use the wires on the main sections of route but can use hdyrogen or hybrid or whatever, on diversions & extensions off the main routes?

 

[radamfi]

Clearly London is unusually dependent on buses in central/inner London. Many big cities in mainland Europe operate the vast majority of their inner area routes with trams and metros and buses only play a small role. Buses typically connect with the end of tram or metro lines. I would argue therefore that buses in central/inner London are currently expected to perform duties they are not suited for and London's tram/tube/rail network is grossly underdeveloped.

The fare system is also to blame encouraging long direct bus trips. For example if you travel on bus 25 from Ilford to Stratford to Oxford Circus you only pay one single bus trip. That is substantially cheaper than the parallel tube/train trip. The difference in fares is causing unnecessary stress on the bus route, particularly off peak when there would be spare train/tube capacity. In most countries, there would be no difference in the fare using the direct bus or rail, so most people would only use the bus to connect with the rail service which they would use for the majority of the trip.

 

[Deerfold]

In NL, CH and other European countries, bus changes are usually restricted to once a year, the same date in December when the rail timetables change. This is logical as if you change train times then you need to change the corresponding connecting bus times.

On many London routes the theory is that you have a high enough frequency that planning for connections doesn't really need to be done except particularly early or late.

The changes I refer to above are physical changes rather than timing changes - these are more frequent but people don't always notice them!