Class 707 - SWT: Introduction into service

[43096]

It's always been the plan to use them to Weybridge. The term Windsor lines includes the Hounslow loop and the Chertsey line.

By my calcs 4tph to Windsor with all trains 10 cars would require 20 units. However, even with the current frequencies there won't be enough units to go round so expect some diagrams to remain as 458/5 and consequently some Reading diagrams to remain as 450. I recall this was confirmed either on this thread or a related one.

In basic terms the 30 707s replace 30 458s on the Windsor/Hounslow/Weybridge services, with the 458s going to the Reading line. Given that there's only 24 units required for the entire peak Reading service, and 32 458s diagrammed daily, there is evidently going to be some use of 458s elsewhere.

I wouldn't start thinking about the 4tph Windsor service in terms of the currently ordered 707s. It's a franchise requirement so will be linked in with whatever stock strategy the incoming franchisee has. Given the apparent need to prematurely replace the 455/456 fleet due to station dwell time requirements, I would expect a big order for new units in the new franchise, probably of 100+ 5-car units, of which 90 or so to replace the 455/456s and another 10 for the 4tph Windsor service. Obviously it would make a lot of sense to take more 707s to give a common fleet.

 

[JonathanH]

In basic terms the 30 707s replace 30 458s on the Windsor/Hounslow/Weybridge services, with the 458s going to the Reading line. Given that there's only 24 units required for the entire peak Reading service, and 32 458s diagrammed daily, there is evidently going to be some use of 458s elsewhere.

I wouldn't start thinking about the 4tph Windsor service in terms of the currently ordered 707s. It's a franchise requirement so will be linked in with whatever stock strategy the incoming franchisee has. Given the apparent need to prematurely replace the 455/456 fleet due to station dwell time requirements, I would expect a big order for new units in the new franchise, probably of 100+ 5-car units, of which 90 or so to replace the 455/456s and another 10 for the 4tph Windsor service. Obviously it would make a lot of sense to take more 707s to give a common fleet.

Who loses out to allow 4tph to Windsor? You could seemingly run them in the xx13 path from Waterloo currently used for the Shepperton semi-fast evening trains but to do so would slow up the xx20 Reading trains and remove the Shepperton semi-fasts.

You could argue that 4tph Twickenham to Kingston is an equal priority or 4tph Reading. I don't think you can fit them all in (although a dynamic loop at Twickenham or somewhere on the Hounslow loop, closure of the Mortlake and North Sheen crossings and the work at Waterloo would help).

 

[RichardBateman]

Were they with or near some wagons? (usually for brake force)

Perhaps [RichardBateman] will let us know later, as he planned on going there today.

Saw the 707s but no sign of any 47s. I went today 26th.

 

[Peter Sarf]

On Friday 24/02/2017 at about 20:00 I could see 707003 with another possibly behind it. The rest of the yard and shed were empty so it was easy to see no other 707s were there. I guess four 707s must have been out on test ?. If I had braved the cold for a few hours and stuffed my Oyster cap I would have seen 707007 & 707008 arrive it seems !.

 

[spark001uk]

On Friday 24/02/2017 at about 20:00 I could see 707003 with another possibly behind it. The rest of the yard and shed were empty so it was easy to see no other 707s were there. I guess four 707s must have been out on test ?. If I had braved the cold for a few hours and stuffed my Oyster cap I would have seen 707007 & 707008 arrive it seems !.

If you'd hung on til 0037 you would have!

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/R91115/2017/02/24/advanced was the working.

Though you may well not have got a train home if you had!

 

[Juniper Driver]

707002 was in Wimbledon Yard (over the weekend) visible from the Main Line and noticeable with the pan on one of the coaches.

 

[Goldfish62]

Who loses out to allow 4tph to Windsor? You could seemingly run them in the xx13 path from Waterloo currently used for the Shepperton semi-fast evening trains but to do so would slow up the xx20 Reading trains and remove the Shepperton semi-fasts.

You could argue that 4tph Twickenham to Kingston is an equal priority or 4tph Reading. I don't think you can fit them all in (although a dynamic loop at Twickenham or somewhere on the Hounslow loop, closure of the Mortlake and North Sheen crossings and the work at Waterloo would help).

The minimum service requirement in the ITT is 4tph for both Reading and Windsor, 4tph Hounslow loop and 2tph Kingston via Richmond. The Chertsey branch is specified as a Weybridge to Virginia Water shuttle with an option to extend to Waterloo via Hounslow, same with the Camberley line. There is no mention of the peak Shepperton via Richmond services.

4tph of the combined Reading and Windsor services are specified via Hounslow.

With the accompanying reduction in end to end journey times specified the whole timetable will have to be completely recast. This is a good thing as it currently no longer works in the peaks, having been designed for much lower passenger numbers back in 2004.

 

[WWTownEnth]

Surely four tracking at Queenstown will be needed to make this work robustly?

Now that five tracking the main line seems to be off the agenda because of Crossrail 2, is this more likely?

 

[swt_passenger]

Surely four tracking at Queenstown will be needed to make this work robustly?

Now that five tracking the main line seems to be off the agenda because of Crossrail 2, is this more likely?

Five tracking the mainline west of Clapham Junction out to Surbiton may well be off the agenda as it was an alternative to Crossrail 2, but towards Waterloo is still planned, according to the Wessex route study.

There are no plans to 4 track through Queenstown Rd, as we've discussed in fairly recent threads (last year IIRC) the Windsor side will basically stay 3 or even 2 track through towards Waterloo.

I've attached the relevant drawing again.

 

[Kite159]

The minimum service requirement in the ITT is 4tph for both Reading and Windsor, 4tph Hounslow loop and 2tph Kingston via Richmond. The Chertsey branch is specified as a Weybridge to Virginia Water shuttle with an option to extend to Waterloo via Hounslow, same with the Camberley line. There is no mention of the peak Shepperton via Richmond services.

4tph of the combined Reading and Windsor services are specified via Hounslow.

With the accompanying reduction in end to end journey times specified the whole timetable will have to be completely recast. This is a good thing as it currently no longer works in the peaks, having been designed for much lower passenger numbers back in 2004.

Makes sense keeping the Chertsey branch as a shuttle, maybe increase it to 3 trains an hour to soften the blow for losing direct London services.

 

[swt_passenger]

Makes sense keeping the Chertsey branch as a shuttle, maybe increase it to 3 trains an hour to soften the blow for losing direct London services.

Didn't it run as only a 1 tph shuttle to/from Staines prior to the 2004 major recast? Back when the previous 4 tph Reading service running?

Will it result in issues somewhere with reversals, or will they just do it at Virginia Water in the branch platforms?

I've got the historic (2004) service pattern diagram somewhere, will have to have a search

 

[Kite159]

Didn't it run as only a 1 tph shuttle to/from Staines prior to the 2004 major recast? Back when the previous 4 tph Reading service running?

Will it result in issues somewhere with reversals, or will they just do it at Virginia Water in the branch platforms?

I've got the historic (2004) service pattern diagram somewhere, will have to have a search

No idea about what the service pattern was like in 2004, but I would imagine if you dropped it to 1 train an hour (as I believe it is currently 2 trains an hour) it wouldn't go down well with the fine people of Surrey.

 

[swt_passenger]

No idea about what the service pattern was like in 2004, but I would imagine if you dropped it to 1 train an hour (as I believe it is currently 2 trains an hour) it wouldn't go down well with the fine people of Surrey.

I agree entirely, just pointing out that 2 (or even 3 tph as suggested) would probably cause problems if they ran through to Staines as they did before.

 

[Kite159]

I agree entirely, just pointing out that 2 (or even 3 tph as suggested) would probably cause problems if they ran through to Staines as they did before.

Restrict the shuttle to Virginia Water - Weybridge, installing a crossover to the south of Virginia Water if required. Looking at the timetable it suggests 12 minutes end to end, so 3tph at 20 minute intervals using 3 units could be doable.

Egham keeps the 4 trains an hour (less to moan about level crossings being down for longer)

 

[TEW]

A lot of people on the Virginia Water-Weybridge section already change trains if heading to London, either at Weybridge or Virginia Water as it's quicker. Providing good connections at both ends from a shuttle would be my priority, and that may work better with a 2tph service.

 

[Dr_Intoxicated]

A lot of people on the Virginia Water-Weybridge section already change trains if heading to London, either at Weybridge or Virginia Water as it's quicker. Providing good connections at both ends from a shuttle would be my priority, and that may work better with a 2tph service.

Yes the trains come in and have to wait for the Reading services to pass, there is usually plenty of time to get the ex Reading service rather than stay of the via Hounslow Weybridge train.

That said, in the peak I usually do stay on the loop train as I have a seat.

 

[spark001uk]

I use the Chertsey branch a lot, and I can generally say I've not seen overly high or low passenger numbers gathering for the current 2tph (1tph Sunday) each way service, so I'd say it's about right as it is. Although I think a few peak time extras wouldn't go amiss. As for continuing up to London there are quite a few alternatives, so I'm sure they'll sort out the best option for all. As it happens I do remember the day they only went as far as Staines (and indeed the first days of the 455s!). Long time ago but IIRC they ran in front of the Readings, so it was just a matter of getting off at Staines and waiting a few mins.

Staying on the loop train to Waterloo isn't that bad, it's only about 20min slower. Plus at the moment (if there's no unplanned changes) if you time it right, it's a 450 so the declass 1st is much nicer!

 

[GW43125]

I use the Chertsey branch a lot, and I can generally say I've not seen overly high or low passenger numbers gathering for the current 2tph (1tph Sunday) each way service, so I'd say it's about right as it is. Although I think a few peak time extras wouldn't go amiss. As for continuing up to London there are quite a few alternatives, so I'm sure they'll sort out the best option for all. As it happens I do remember the day they only went as far as Staines (and indeed the first days of the 455s!). Long time ago but IIRC they ran in front of the Readings, so it was just a matter of getting off at Staines and waiting a few mins.

Staying on the loop train to Waterloo isn't that bad, it's only about 20min slower. Plus at the moment (if there's no unplanned changes) if you time it right, it's a 450 so the declass 1st is much nicer!

Anything that isn't a school train or morning peak carts around fresh air. 2S41 is pretty bad for this, more often than not there's nobody in the rear unit!

Something I find slightly amusing is when we come in to VW a couple of minutes late, everyone bails to the fast train to find it gone and then the mass exodus back to our train

 

[spark001uk]

Anything that isn't a school train or morning peak carts around fresh air. 2S41 is pretty bad for this, more often than not there's nobody in the rear unit!

Something I find slightly amusing is when we come in to VW a couple of minutes late, everyone bails to the fast train to find it gone and then the mass exodus back to our train

Or they go over to 1, only to find it's late and come back over! I will admit sometimes there's a guard that'll check how the up Reading is running and notify passengers accordingly before we run into VW.

I'm just waiting to see passengers' reactions when they take the lifts and just miss the fast! If I need the lift I work by the rule if there isn't 4 or 5 minutes then use the stairs!

 

[Goldfish62]

Restrict the shuttle to Virginia Water - Weybridge, installing a crossover to the south of Virginia Water if required. Looking at the timetable it suggests 12 minutes end to end, so 3tph at 20 minute intervals using 3 units could be doable.

Egham keeps the 4 trains an hour (less to moan about level crossings being down for longer)

Although as it's currently 6tph through Egham for about six hours each weekday that would represent an actual decrease.

 

[GW43125]

Although as it's currently 6tph through Egham for about six hours each weekday that would represent an actual decrease.

Also with that plan we'd lose our direct services to Ashford and round the Hounslow Loop.

 

[GW43125]

Or they go over to 1, only to find it's late and come back over! I will admit sometimes there's a guard that'll check how the up Reading is running and notify passengers accordingly before we run into VW.

I'm just waiting to see passengers' reactions when they take the lifts and just miss the fast! If I need the lift I work by the rule if there isn't 4 or 5 minutes then use the stairs!

There was once when everyone went over, guard tried to tell them not to, they found it cancelled and came back with looks of disgust on their faces, and the guard effectively said "Ah well, you can still change at Staines"-though most people who change are for Egham and Staines!

 

[spark001uk]

Just seen 002 in Wimbledon carriage sheds, just poking its nose out.

Here's 007 and (guess) 008 behind, next to 004 and (guess) 006 behind, out in the sun at Clapham. Looks like the new arrivals are about to be moved (although the NTBM flag is still on the side).

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Once they do start to enter service, when there are any big games happening at Twickenham, will they get used on Twickenham-Waterloo shuttles?

 

[GW43125]

Once they do start to enter service, when there are any big games happening at Twickenham, will they get used on Twickenham-Waterloo shuttles?

I think 458s and 450s are preferable on these because when you've got lots of fans under the influence, toilets are advised. Though whether they actually work isn't another matter...

 

[Domh245]

I think 458s and 450s are preferable on these because when you've got lots of fans under the influence, toilets are advised. Though whether they actually work isn't another matter...

Considering that most trains would be crush loaded in that circumstance, the additional space from a lack of toilet is probably preferable...

 

[spark001uk]

I would agree with GW, if they're smashed and they can't find a bog they'll just peace on the floor. Seen it happen before.

 

[Class455]

Just seen 002 in Wimbledon carriage sheds, just poking its nose out.

Here's 007 and (guess) 008 behind, next to 004 and (guess) 006 behind, out in the sun at Clapham. Looks like the new arrivals are about to be moved (although the NTBM flag is still on the side).

Funny you posted that. I arrived at Clapham Junction 4 minutes after you posted this and went straight to Platform 8 to snap the 707. I only took a picture of 707 004 though.

 

[racklam]

I think 458s and 450s are preferable on these because when you've got lots of fans under the influence, toilets are advised. Though whether they actually work isn't another matter...

Toilets on the 458s are so rarely in service they may as well not be there. The 450s seem to be better in that regard.

 

[Domh245]

I would agree with GW, if they're smashed and they can't find a bog they'll just peace on the floor. Seen it happen before.

But if the train is crush loaded, unless you are fortunate enough to be next to the toilet, you aren't going to be able to get to it. Theoretically the toilets are advantageous, in practice they are advantageous only for the 10 to 20 people in the immediate vicinity of each one.