Class 707 - SWT: Introduction into service

[Class455]

There was a 5 Car 707 working 2O13 08:03 London Waterloo to London Waterloo, seen at Kingston today. Didn’t catch the number though. Interesting to see a 707 running alone, have never seen anything lower than 8 coaches running on the Kingston line.

EDIT: Travelled on the same train later in the evening, it was worked by 707 009

 

[SWT_USER]

There was a 5 Car 707 working 2O13 08:03 London Waterloo to London Waterloo, seen at Kingston today. Didn’t catch the number though. Interesting to see a 707 running alone, have never seen anything lower than 8 coaches running on the Kingston line.

You've never had to travel at weekends then!

 

[WWTownEnth]

Taking the suburban fleet on its own, the present level of 455 usage is, I believe quite low (in numbers) as there was originally a plan to implement four additional peak services on the Windsor side (using 8 units in total) which was postponed or whatever, so there is (I presume?) quite a bit of slack in that particular fleet at the moment, so although the present suburban total of 742 cars is only just shy of SWRs proposed 750 new cars, that 455 slack combined with whatever diagram scenario the Dec 2018 timetable revamp brings about should prove enough - I would guess!

I suppose my concern - which may well be misplaced - is that when you look at all current and future units in “maximum” formation, you end up with fewer.

Currently you have:

15 x 707 x 2
18 x 458 x 2
24 x 455 x 2 + 456
21 x 455 x 2

= 78

After 2019 you may have:

60 x 701 x 1
15 x 701/5 x 2

= 75

 

[Class455]

You've never had to travel at weekends then!

Nope. Only have to travel to Kingston on weekdays.

 

[Goldfish62]

I suppose my concern - which may well be misplaced - is that when you look at all current and future units in “maximum” formation, you end up with fewer.

Currently you have:

15 x 707 x 2
18 x 458 x 2
24 x 455 x 2 + 456
21 x 455 x 2

= 78

After 2019 you may have:

60 x 701 x 1
15 x 701/5 x 2

= 75

I understand what you mean and don't quite understand the numbers myself, especially as the Windsor lines need to retain a number of 450s even after full 707 introduction. However, an homogenous fleet should allow more efficient utilisation. And if they really have got their sums wrong they can always order a top up of 701s.

 

[samuelmorris]

Notably the bottom "21x 455x2" pairings are 8-car. Will there be any 8->5 car reductions?

 

[D235 Apapa]

Some of the changes to the timetable, when it comes in, will effect unit utilisation as hinted at elsewhere. Also the number of maintenance spares will complicate things for anyone guessing in advance. Historically this has usually been around 5% of each fleet type, but can vary depending on fleet type overall numbers. As an example the present fleet (AFAIK) that is in service each day is:

455: 76 from 91. As mentioned above this was not originally planned to be so low, and no doubt will only be temporary until this December (they may also be putting some of this apparent slack to good use at the moment to help out with any shortfalls?). It could go up to 86 in theory which was the case many years ago, but despite their recent AC conversion they are getting older, so who knows how many they plan to use each day?
456: 20 from 24
458: 32 from 36
707: should end up 27 from 30. Yes, an odd 5 car diagram start is still in the mix (from Strawberry Hill), which includes 2S13.

With a new homogenous fleet, and a one (stock) type maintenance regime, it may be that overall a fewer number of vehicles/units will form the maintenance pool, thus a larger overall percentage for daily use. With the present situation can't necessarily take a 'maximum' formation rule as a guide, in the sense that on the SW network there have never to my knowledge, been enough units to make all services max formation all day, hence a degree of splitting/joining during the mid day period, primarily at Waterloo to ensure the correct formations are in the correct place for the evening peak. Eg: The odd 5 car 707 diagram in the evening is not the same one that starts out in the morning!

 

[WWTownEnth]

Some of the changes to the timetable, when it comes in, will effect unit utilisation as hinted at elsewhere. Also the number of maintenance spares will complicate things for anyone guessing in advance. Historically this has usually been around 5% of each fleet type, but can vary depending on fleet type overall numbers. As an example the present fleet (AFAIK) that is in service each day is:

455: 76 from 91. As mentioned above this was not originally planned to be so low, and no doubt will only be temporary until this December (they may also be putting some of this apparent slack to good use at the moment to help out with any shortfalls?). It could go up to 86 in theory which was the case many years ago, but despite their recent AC conversion they are getting older, so who knows how many they plan to use each day?
456: 20 from 24
458: 32 from 36
707: should end up 27 from 30. Yes, an odd 5 car diagram start is still in the mix (from Strawberry Hill), which includes 2S13.

With a new homogenous fleet, and a one (stock) type maintenance regime, it may be that overall a fewer number of vehicles/units will form the maintenance pool, thus a larger overall percentage for daily use. With the present situation can't necessarily take a 'maximum' formation rule as a guide, in the sense that on the SW network there have never to my knowledge, been enough units to make all services max formation all day, hence a degree of splitting/joining during the mid day period, primarily at Waterloo to ensure the correct formations are in the correct place for the evening peak. Eg: The odd 5 car 707 diagram in the evening is not the same one that starts out in the morning!

Thanks. Very helpful and sheds some light on how it might all work. Does anyone know - with apologies for straying off topic - will the 701/5s be extendable to 10 cars should the need arise?

 

[43096]

Some of the changes to the timetable, when it comes in, will effect unit utilisation as hinted at elsewhere. Also the number of maintenance spares will complicate things for anyone guessing in advance. Historically this has usually been around 5% of each fleet type, but can vary depending on fleet type overall numbers. As an example the present fleet (AFAIK) that is in service each day is:

455: 76 from 91. As mentioned above this was not originally planned to be so low, and no doubt will only be temporary until this December (they may also be putting some of this apparent slack to good use at the moment to help out with any shortfalls?). It could go up to 86 in theory which was the case many years ago, but despite their recent AC conversion they are getting older, so who knows how many they plan to use each day?
456: 20 from 24
458: 32 from 36
707: should end up 27 from 30. Yes, an odd 5 car diagram start is still in the mix (from Strawberry Hill), which includes 2S13.

With a new homogenous fleet, and a one (stock) type maintenance regime, it may be that overall a fewer number of vehicles/units will form the maintenance pool, thus a larger overall percentage for daily use. With the present situation can't necessarily take a 'maximum' formation rule as a guide, in the sense that on the SW network there have never to my knowledge, been enough units to make all services max formation all day, hence a degree of splitting/joining during the mid day period, primarily at Waterloo to ensure the correct formations are in the correct place for the evening peak. Eg: The odd 5 car 707 diagram in the evening is not the same one that starts out in the morning!

So, there are currently 135 4/5 car sets available for service each day, potentially rising to 145 if 455 availability is pushed to where it used to be. I've ignored the 456s as they are extras to make 455s up to 10-car and I'm comparing "half trains" here.

The 750 Aventra cars are a mix of 5 and 10 cars, but this equates to 150 5-cars. Assuming 95% availability (which is a very high level) this gives 142 sets for traffic, so a gain of 7 sets over the current level. However, we know Windsor-Waterloo goes to 4tph, which needs more sets, probably an extra 5 10-cars (or 10 extra sets). There might be one or two sets saved from the change on the Hounslow loop/Weybridge so it might just about be doable - but there is absolutely no contingency in the fleet

I still detest this obsession with long fixed formation trains. Run a 10-car Aventra into a tree - which will happen - and it needs works attention and you lose all 10 cars. So that's a diagram cancelled rather than short formed. Not clever.

 

[D235 Apapa]

The pro fixed (long) formation argument may sometimes be based on a need for good performance/less risk, by that I mean no planned detaches/attaches etc., and therefore less risk if the latter goes pear shaped, either by unit fault or crew displacement. At Waterloo it would also free up a small amount of additional empty platform time for certain platforms where there are presently two separate departures off one inbound service, which might be beneficial to the overall platform usage, although that would make little difference in the main part of the peaks as detaching/attaching rarely happens on a planned basis, because of the potential, however slight of those very risks as highlighted above. The flip side (of the fixed 10 car) being that it will be wasteful during off peak times on many routes (not all - eg: Reading route is pretty busy most of the day I believe) and will ramp up unit mileage, which, depending on what has been agreed for/by the new franchisee, might impact on level of maintenance required? There's no right or wrong, just different risks/consequences - as you say, if a 10 car sits down on a route that only has 2 tph, that's not funny from a passenger perspective, but if the service frequency was akin to that on LUL, such a scenario (other than actually getting the failure out the way) would perhaps not be so dire?

 

[WWTownEnth]

Is there a delivery tonight?

 

[Cletus]

Nothing at Dollands Moor this morning except a 700.

 

[WWTownEnth]

normally the deliveries are on a Friday night so maybe it is already at Clapham Yard

 

[SevenEightNine]

On 707 016 this morning, I noticed the voice that says "the next station is" is now slightly different to the other PIS announcements. Before it was synthetic. Now it's synthetic and inconsistent.

 

[WWTownEnth]

Anyone know when the final few deliveries are due to be made? I believe the following are still to be delivered:

707021
707022
707024
707030

 

[robbeech]

So, if 2 of these units are joined together to make a 10 car set, and 1 is joined one way around it appears you end up with coach 1 and 10 in the middle of the train, and messages telling people to move forwards from this part of the train where there are short platforms where in actual fact they’re in the ideal part.

 

[Agent_Squash]

So, if 2 of these units are joined together to make a 10 car set, and 1 is joined one way around it appears you end up with coach 1 and 10 in the middle of the train, and messages telling people to move forwards from this part of the train where there are short platforms where in actual fact they’re in the ideal part.

Surely modern PIS is able to tell the direction of travel and where a unit is coupled?

 

[robbeech]

This is what confused me. I’d have thought that. But one service I boarded the rear coach of the front train and it announced it as carriage number 1.

A later service (front of rear train) suggested at Putney that one should move forward to exit the train yet all of the doors were able to open. I’m not sure how long the platform is at Putney (down direction if there’s a difference).

 

[SevenEightNine]

This is what confused me. I’d have thought that. But one service I boarded the rear coach of the front train and it announced it as carriage number 1.

A later service (front of rear train) suggested at Putney that one should move forward to exit the train yet all of the doors were able to open. I’m not sure how long the platform is at Putney (down direction if there’s a difference).

Agreed, the first is definitely a strange one.

The second is not surprising, I've heard that at Twickenham (coach 2 if I can remember correctly) and at Clapham a few days ago. Both of the above, and Putney, have no issue handling 10 cars.

 

[GW43125]

On 707023 this morning, I notice the word “only” has been dropped from the “this train is for xxx” screen.

 

[HeelBurton]

Should be one due every Thursday/Friday for the next 3-4 weeks untill they are all complete. End of Feb they should all be delivered.

 

[Dr_Intoxicated]

So, if 2 of these units are joined together to make a 10 car set, and 1 is joined one way around it appears you end up with coach 1 and 10 in the middle of the train, and messages telling people to move forwards from this part of the train where there are short platforms where in actual fact they’re in the ideal part.

I was sat in coach 7 at Waterloo station last night and the PIS thought it was coach 9, however as soon as the train set of the system seemed to reset and for the remainder of the journey it correctly identified itself as coach 7.

 

[WWTownEnth]

Is there a delivery tonight?

 

[WWTownEnth]

Should be one due every Thursday/Friday for the next 3-4 weeks untill they are all complete. End of Feb they should all be delivered.

They are no longer being delivered in pairs?

 

[HeelBurton]

They are no longer being delivered in pairs?

According to someone I spoke to who’s very in the know, they are not.

 

[43096]

707018 is now in traffic, working Hounslow loop services today paired with 707002.

 

[Mordac]

Do these trains make the same singing noise as the older Desiros did?

 

[Val3ntine]

Do these trains make the same singing noise as the older Desiros did?

Yupp. The usual UFO noise

 

[Class313:)]

not just the desiros. 365s make a similar noise

 

[Domh245]

not just the desiros. 365s make a similar noise

They're completely different. The 365s (and 323s, 465/2s, and 466s) have got a gearshift-esque sounding traction noise. The Desiros have got more of a constant warble.