Court Summons next month

[20052534]

Well I do apologise for wasting your time. Thank you to those who actually gave me some advice rather than nit-picking at my situation, events and correspondence. Like I have said before, I am new to this whole Law business and clearly you have all been trying to help others like me before.

Edit: I have a few solicitors to contact... is there any specific ones for this case that might be recommended?

 

[najaB]

Edit: I have a few solicitors to contact... is there any specific ones for this case that might be recommended?

Any solicitor with criminal law experience should be able to represent you, as long as they are familiar with procedures in a Magistrate's Court.

There are specialist railway lawyers but they are very expensive so wouldn't suit your limited means.

Edit: Though you should give consideration to a guilty plea and what impact it would have on your future career and personal plans as I'm not confident that you will be able to achieve a not guilty verdict based on what you have posted here.

 

[20052534]

Edit: Though you should give consideration to a guilty plea and what impact it would have on your future career and personal plans as I'm not confident that you will be able to achieve a not guilty verdict based on what you have posted here.

A Guilty plea will only result in a cheaper fee AND a criminal record, which will not be good for my career & personal plans.

A NOT Guilty plea can hopefully but less than likely lead to the fee and NOT get a criminal record.
Providing TIL & XC cant come to an agreement outside of court (I am offering them to play with the band 3 fine of anything up to £1000).

 

[crehld]

Yes, it does look to me too as though you are finding it difficult to separate out what is relevant in terms of the law from everything else, so I'd also suggest you consult a local solicitor. Even if this costs money, a professional at dealing with situations like this is much more likely to achieve a better outcome for you - you don't seem to have made much progress with your own phone calls and letters.

I think this is the most useful advice which can be given in the OP's situation. Given the OP's complex situation and ambiguity, I don't think there's much more that can be achieved here.
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Edit: Though you should give consideration to a guilty plea and what impact it would have on your future career and personal plans as I'm not confident that you will be able to achieve a not guilty verdict based on what you have posted here.

I think such a recommendation is best left for those qualified to give professional legal advice, as the OP has been encouraged to seek.

 

[najaB]

I think such a recommendation is best left for those qualified to give professional legal advice, as the OP has been encouraged to seek.

Hence why I've not recommended that they plead either way, but that they consider all the options and the impact that they may have on their future plans.

 

[221129]

A Guilty plea will only result in a cheaper fee AND a criminal record, which will not be good for my career & personal plans.

A NOT Guilty plea can hopefully but less than likely lead to the fee and NOT get a criminal record.
Providing TIL & XC cant come to an agreement outside of court (I am offering them to play with the band 3 fine of anything up to £1000).

If you plead not guilty but are FOUND guilty you will get the higher fine AND still get a criminal record...

IF you re found not guilty then you pay nothing.

 

[20052534]

If you plead not guilty but are FOUND guilty you will get the higher fine AND still get a criminal record...

IF you re found not guilty then you pay nothing.

I think if I go to court, before anyone proceeds I'll state to everyone that if on the day I am found not guilty, I will still be willing to pay any costs".
But yes I'm aware of what will happen if I plead not guilty but am found guilty!☺️

 

[Clip]

I think if I go to court, before anyone proceeds I'll state to everyone that if on the day I am found not guilty, I will still be willing to pay any costs".
But yes I'm aware of what will happen if I plead not guilty but am found guilty!☺️

Why you would do that I have no idea but I hope your brief that you see will convince you to pleading guilty - you did commit the offence so why you think you would never get found guilty I have no idea.

But hey best of luck.

 

[island]

I think if I go to court, before anyone proceeds I'll state to everyone that if on the day I am found not guilty, I will still be willing to pay any costs".

I'm not sure what you expect to accomplish by that.

 

[Llanigraham]

Definitely instruct a solicitor and get him/her to speak on your behalf.

Courts don't quite work that way. If the Prosecution wants to question the Accused then he will have to take the Stand and answer personally, and not speak through a third party.
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A Guilty plea will only result in a cheaper fee AND a criminal record, which will not be good for my career & personal plans.

A NOT Guilty plea can hopefully but less than likely lead to the fee and NOT get a criminal record.
Providing TIL & XC cant come to an agreement outside of court (I am offering them to play with the band 3 fine of anything up to £1000).

If a Court finds you guilty, whatever your plea, then you would get a Criminal Record!

As you are a student you might find that your local Student's Union have an "arrangement" with a suitable solicitor, if you are a member.

 

[20052534]

Courts don't quite work that way. If the Prosecution wants to question the Accused then he will have to take the Stand and answer personally, and not speak through a third party.
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I think he meant on the phone...

If a Court finds you guilty, whatever your plea, then you would get a Criminal Record!

I am aware of this.

As you are a student you might find that your local Student's Union have an "arrangement" with a suitable solicitor, if you are a member.

I have looked into this but my university is small, they do not have such thing unfortunately!
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Why you would do that I have no idea but I hope your brief that you see will convince you to pleading guilty - you did commit the offence so why you think you would never get found guilty I have no idea.

I still remain adamant that something had gone wrong. That I should have been able to pay for something and have done with it. At least if I plead not guilty I can go out knowing I tried

 

[najaB]

I still remain adamant that something had gone wrong. That I should have been able to pay for something and have done with it.

Arggghhh!!!! I cannot believe that, one hundred and sixty posts later, you still haven't got that the fare is due before you travel unless you travelled from a station that had no ticket purchasing facilities that you could use.

End of story.

You have no right to pay afterwards.

None.

Zero.

Zilch.

The offence was committed on the day and nothing that happened subsequent to that changes the fact that an offence has occurred.

 

[20052534]

Arggghhh!!!! I cannot believe that, one hundred and sixty posts later, you still haven't got that the fare is due before you travel unless you travelled from a station that had no ticket purchasing facilities that you could use.

The offence was committed on the day and nothing that happened subsequent to that changes the fact that an offence has occurred.

I have, I completely understand that! But why could an UPFN not have been issued? XC believed that is what should have been issued.

How about, you direct message me and ill show you the correspondence I have?

 

[455driver]

I have, I completely understand that! But why could an UPFN not have been issued? XC believed that is what should have been issued.

How about, you direct message me and ill show you the correspondence I have?

Everything you did on the day backed their suspicion up. Cross Country came to the same conclusion and are now prosecuting you,what you did and said on the day gives them all the evidence they need.

You can go on about why didnt they do this or that or the other but all that matters is what you did on the day, they are under no obligation to issue a UFN or even ask you for your version of events (how many different versions have we got to now, is it 4 or 5?) you need to concentrate on the important bit and forget all the distracting stuff, it wont help you in Court!

 

[najaB]

But why could an UPFN not have been issued?

It could have been but it wasn't. And you can't change that.

How about, you direct message me and ill show you the correspondence I have?

Since you have already decided to plead not guilty I suggest it would be more productive to share that information with your solicitor.

 

[20052534]

You can go on about why didnt they do this or that or the other but all that matters is what you did on the day, they are under no obligation to issue a UFN or even ask you for your version of events (how many different versions have we got to now, is it 4 or 5?) you need to concentrate on the important bit and forget all the distracting stuff, it wont help you in Court!

I wouldn't say there were any different 'versions', why? because I said Cheltenham to Bristol, to simplify what I meant?

But he said to pay for something!!! Why would he say that if I then could not?
Why would the person I spoke to on the phone think it was an UFN?

On the Zero-Fare ticket he gave me in the endorsements section it says 'TH TM NS4786' - What would this be?
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It could have been but it wasn't. And you can't change that.
Since you have already decided to plead not guilty I suggest it would be more productive to share that information with your solicitor.

I haven't decided yet, I am considering my best options, in this letter I have that I am debating to send...

 

[6Gman]

Do XC Voyagers (I'm assuming this would have been on a Voyager) have CCTV?

 

[20052534]

Do XC Voyagers (I'm assuming this would have been on a Voyager) have CCTV?

Of what, what happened? I doubt they would have this footage now... But why would that help?

 

[Llanigraham]

Do XC Voyagers (I'm assuming this would have been on a Voyager) have CCTV?

What use do you think that would be?
The Law only requires it to be kept for 28 days without an intervention, and it doesn't record sound, so would show nothing but some "interaction" between 2 people.
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Of what, what happened? I doubt they would have this footage now... But why would that help?

It wouldn't; forget it!

 

[Darandio]

What use do you think that would be?

The sleeping part?

 

[DaleCooper]

Perhaps 6Gman thought it would show whether the OP was actually asleep.

 

[najaB]

The sleeping part?

Even then it would only show that the OP appeared to be sleeping, not that they were asleep.

 

[6Gman]

What use do you think that would be?
The Law only requires it to be kept for 28 days without an intervention, and it doesn't record sound, so would show nothing but some "interaction" between 2 people.

Well, if somebody claimed to have been asleep all the way from A to B via C and the CCTV showed him or her getting out of their seat to allow another passenger to alight at C, or walking to the loo en-route ...

Not that I'm suggesting this would be the case in any specific instance.

Would the TOC be obliged to disclose this information to the accused prior to any court case?

 

[Llanigraham]

The sleeping part?

Still wouldn't help the OP, and I doubt it exists now, anyway.

EDIT.
Unless any CCTV images have been requested within the relevant time then they do not have to be kept, so mentioning it now is pointless and is of no help to the OP.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Put yourself in this situation... You fell asleep on a train, went passed your intended stop, inspector seemed understanding and accepted this reason. A ticket back to Sheffield was too expensive and so you contacted a friend in Bath to ask of a favour.

fine so far.

Now if I had gotten off at Cheltenham, I could have easily done so and bought a ticket to travel further down IF that was my intention, this would have all been forgotten about. End of.

Only if you paid for the fair from Sheffield to Cheltenham. The guard/RPI had your details. Had you not paid up within 28 days you would be in the same situation you are in now.

However, this was not my intention, and so, thought he would understand my circumstances and what my plan was to do, in terms of getting back to Sheffield with little money.

When this took a turn that was unexpected though, I chose not to pay it because I simply could not afford to.

What would you have done? Besides get off at Cheltenham, then be stranded if your friend could not take you back.

I would've got off at Cheltenham and hitch hiked back. No it's not the cleverest thing in the world. What would've happened if you had got to Bristol and you couldn't have got back?

But TBQH asking for onward travel to a guard or to an RPI without paying for the part already taken and not paid for is quite frankly taking the **** and in all respects looks highly suspicious to them.

 

[20052534]

What use do you think that would be?
The Law only requires it to be kept for 28 days without an intervention, and it doesn't record sound, so would show nothing but some "interaction" between 2 people.

Is the witness not supposed to write everything down there and then, have me agree to it and then sign it so that nothing else can be written? because this did not happen... on the witnesses 'report of irregular travelling' which was received in the summons pack it is dated 16th December

 

[Puffing Devil]

I give up.
I've put a lot of time into trying to make a few small and simple points clear this evening.
I'ts saddening that they haven't been understood and adopted.

I've been watching this thread develop and share Dave's exasperation.

Stop arguing the toss on here and go and get yourself some qualified legal advice on Tuesday.

If you carry on in court as you have on this thread, the result will not be pretty.

 

[20052534]

Even then it would only show that the OP appeared to be sleeping, not that they were asleep.

How would someone 'appear to be asleep' for 2 hours?

 

[najaB]

Would the TOC be obliged to disclose this information to the accused prior to any court case?

I believe that disclosure rules mean that they would be, yes.
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How would someone 'appear to be asleep' for 2 hours?

Eyes closed, head against the window.

 

[20052534]

fine so far.

Only if you paid for the fair from Sheffield to Cheltenham. The guard/RPI had your details. Had you not paid up within 28 days you would be in the same situation you are in now.

The guard did not take my details. I could have got off at Cheltenham, bought a ticket and travelled further. It is because I stayed on that he took my details.

I would've got off at Cheltenham and hitch hiked back. No it's not the cleverest thing in the world. What would've happened if you had got to Bristol and you couldn't have got back?

My friend agreed to take me back...

But TBQH asking for onward travel to a guard or to an RPI without paying for the part already taken and not paid for is quite frankly taking the **** and in all respects looks highly suspicious to them.

I understand this now, but at the time I wasn't thinking that way
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--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Eyes closed, head against the window.

For two hours... Really?