Court Summons next month

[ainsworth74]

But I did pay for the fair that I intended to make. I fell asleep, my mistake.

Perhaps but as others have indicated there are ways in which a prosecutor could start to pick holes in that. Sleeping for so long, through so many station calls including Birmingham where a lot of people will have gotten on and off, sleeping through PA announcements which in my experience on that route are very very audible, the confusion over where you were going to get off once you did wake up, why you didn't try and go straight back to Sheffield for example are all things which could weaken the statement 'I fell asleep and had a ticket for the journey I intended to make' as it might well be seen to be stretching believability.

This also ignores that you didn't have a ticket for the journey you actually made.

In my first letter I sent to TIL, I said that I have paid the full fairs on all of my journeys for the last 3 years (how long I had been at University, had no other reason to travel by train before that) and that XC should have record of this.

Excellent that might help assuage their concerns that you are regularly avoiding your fare but it doesn't help in the current circumstance beyond that.

 

[najaB]

But I did pay for the fair that I intended to make. I fell asleep, my mistake.

Yes, but you didn't pay the fare for the journey you actually made.

In my first letter I sent to TIL, I said that I have paid the full fairs on all of my journeys for the last 3 years (how long I had been at University, had no other reason to travel by train before that) and that XC should have record of this.

A history of not committing an offence doesn't mean that an offence hasn't been committed.

 

[Llanigraham]

Just what the ticket inspector said in his witness statement 'I spoke with Mr XXXXXX XXXXXX and he explained that the fares were too expensive to travel back to Sheffield and that he was going to ask a uni mate from Bristol to give him a lift home'.

What I actually said to him though was "I can't afford to get back to Sheffield and that I have a friend in Bath who would be willing to take me back to Sheffield".

Which to me reads that you are going to get your mate from Bath to come to Cheltenham to pick you up, but you then to a "free ride" onwards.

 

[20052534]

I give up.
I've put a lot of time into trying to make a few small and simple points clear this evening.
I'ts saddening that they haven't been understood and adopted.

Sorry you feel this way Dave, please understand, I have been sat here for days on end staring at my screen. I have read over what you mean about the charge in that I didn't pay for the journey that they see me as taking, I am just seeing it as I did not 'intend' to do so, which is why I am so adamant about pleading NOT guilty.

But I do understand what you are saying, and I do apologise, your points are clear, just the lingo in this legal stuff, I'm not familiar with - I'm 21 (20 at the time) and have never had to deal with anything like this. Sorry!

I agree. The crux of the case is contained in this statement:
You were physically able to pay at the time, but chose not to. That means that all the talk of if you received letters or not is, basically, waffle.

Okay, I think we have gathered that I had the money to pay, but I couldn't afford to for obvious reasons. Then issued Zero-Fare, MG11 put through, told I should receive correspondence from XC - But didn't. Spoken to XC on phone on the day of the incident, explained everything to them, and they were still under the impression it was an UPFN which meant from what they said, I was under this impression too. So something must have gone wrong somewhere surely?

 

[DaleCooper]

How could I? I wouldn't have had any money to live or eat when moving into my new student house.

Well now you see where that decision has got you.

 

[20052534]

Yes, but you didn't pay the fare for the journey you actually made.

I understand this, and this is where they are getting me for correct?

A history of not committing an offence doesn't mean that an offence hasn't been committed.

But the fact that I this is a first offence, this should have been a good sign surely? There are people out there doing it all the time, probably as we speak.

 

[najaB]

I have read over what you mean about the charge in that I didn't pay for the journey that they see me as taking, I am just seeing it as I did not 'intend' to do so, which is why I am so adamant about pleading NOT guilty.

Intent, in law, is determined by actions. By asking for a ticket from Cheltenham to Bristol rather than Sheffield to Bristol you demonstrated intent to avoid payment for the journey you were making. This was compounded by the fact that you didn't pay the correct fare despite having the means to do so.

But the fact that I this is a first offence, this should have been a good sign surely? There are people out there doing it all the time, probably as we speak.

Even the most hardened fare evader had a first time.

 

[20052534]

Which to me reads that you are going to get your mate from Bath to come to Cheltenham to pick you up, but you then to a "free ride" onwards.

No. This was a statement made after I had asked for a ticket form Cheltenham to Bristol for my friend to pick me up. This was my naïve decision, which I have said to XC and TIL, I thought the inspector would have understood my decision (I get that the fare between Sheffield and Cheltenham would have been a free journey). But like I said, he seemed alright, I thought he would have understood.

Even the most hardened fare evader had a first time.

I mean ones that have been caught and caught again... second or ex offenders

 

[ainsworth74]

I mean ones that have been caught and caught again... second or ex offenders

This is irrelevant to your case. It might protect you from the harsher penalties of the crime that you are charged with but it does not protect you from being charged and potentially being found guilty.

I repeat my earlier advice. If you are serious about fighting this and pleading not guilty I strongly advise you to instruct a local solicitor that deals with criminal defence matters.

 

[20052534]

Intent, in law, is determined by actions. By asking for a ticket from Cheltenham to Bristol rather than Sheffield to Bristol you demonstrated intent to avoid payment for the journey you were making. This was compounded by the fact that you didn't pay the correct fare despite having the means to do so.

This is how it went:
Ticket inspector walked passed me, I stopped him and said "can I get a ticket to Bristol - explained my reasons for this (too expensive to go back to Sheffield and friend would pick me up in Bristol).
I never said where I wanted the ticket from. This is where my naïve decision came in, feeling that he would understand and just charge me from Cheltenham so that I could get back.
I did not think about my friend picking me up from Cheltenham on the way to Sheffield.
When he asked me for the large sum, it is then I said that I couldn't afford to pay for it.

This is irrelevant to your case. It might protect you from the harsher penalties of the crime that you are charged with but it does not protect you from being charged and potentially being found guilty.

I repeat my earlier advice. If you are serious about fighting this and pleading not guilty I strongly advise you to instruct a local solicitor that deals with criminal defence matters.

Thank you for your advice. If I cant afford this though and fought it myself, likelihood I'm going to be guilty (I can see this), but I do believe that something somewhere went wrong, perhaps its just me being stubborn, but I just don't see why I cant settle out of court given that I've stated ill pay all costs necessary!

I just have this hope that if I attend the court that they will listen to my evidence, witnesses and circumstances and can see that, honestly, I'm not a guilty man, I am guilty for the charge against me in that I didn't pay for the full journey, but this wasn't my intention, and I know that they wont see it as that, due to my actions, but my witnesses should help.

edit: if I can just tell them this, and that they can see I'm not a dishonest person, could they not then decide on a settlement without any convictions or records?

 

[ian959]

This is how it went:
Ticket inspector walked passed me, I stopped him and said "can I get a ticket to Bristol - explained my reasons for this (too expensive to go back to Sheffield and friend would pick me up in Bristol).
I never said where I wanted the ticket from. This is where my naïve decision came in, feeling that he would understand and just charge me from Cheltenham so that I could get back.
I did not think about my friend picking me up from Cheltenham on the way to Sheffield.
When he asked me for the large sum, it is then I said that I couldn't afford to pay for it.

And the still crucial thing you fail to grasp is that you have not paid nor asked for a ticket from Sheffield to Cheltenham therefore your intent WAS to avoid paying the fare from Sheffield to Cheltenham...

The more you talk, the less convincing your attempts to concoct a story that "works" to get you out of the situation. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but your story was unconvincing in the first place and it is even less convincing now.

 

[nanstallon]

Sorry to sound unsympathetic, but if I were the prosecutor in court and you came to me to try to settle, my reaction would be:
If I had been in your shoes and overslept, then on being woken by the conductor I'd have said 'oh heck - I'm going to need a return ticket between Sheffield and Cheltenham so I can get back to where I'm supposed to be. If I haven't got enough money for that, can you issue one and take all my details and issue an unpaid fare notice?

I'd also find it hard to believe that the cost of your friend in Bath driving you all the way back to Sheffield (and then petrol for the drive back to his own home in Bath), plus the single from Sheffield to Cheltenham to which you were already committed, would be less than the cost of a return train fare from Sheffield to Cheltenham - surely that would have been the logical action of an honest man who never wanted to end up in Bristol?

 

[ainsworth74]

If that is your intention I would suggest on the day of the court action you seek out the prosecutor of your case and see if you can reach a settlement with them there face to face before going into court. I fear that once in court it may very well be too late as you are either guilty or not and, from what you've said so far, particularly what you said in post #117, you will very likely be found guilty of charge being made against you.

How you feel about your guilt or innocence is irrelevant in the eye of the law.

 

[DaleCooper]

Unable to buy the ticket online, I asked the inspector for a ticket from Cheltenham to Bristol.

I never said where I wanted the ticket from.

I can't see how you can reconcile these two statements. They are contradictory.

 

[20052534]

And the still crucial thing you fail to grasp is that you have not paid nor asked for a ticket from Sheffield to Cheltenham therefore your intent WAS to avoid paying the fare from Sheffield to Cheltenham...

The more you talk, the less convincing your attempts to concoct a story that "works" to get you out of the situation. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but your story was unconvincing in the first place and it is even less convincing now.

Put yourself in this situation... You fell asleep on a train, went passed your intended stop, inspector seemed understanding and accepted this reason. A ticket back to Sheffield was too expensive and so you contacted a friend in Bath to ask of a favour.

Now if I had gotten off at Cheltenham, I could have easily done so and bought a ticket to travel further down IF that was my intention, this would have all been forgotten about. End of.

However, this was not my intention, and so, thought he would understand my circumstances and what my plan was to do, in terms of getting back to Sheffield with little money.

When this took a turn that was unexpected though, I chose not to pay it because I simply could not afford to.

What would you have done? Besides get off at Cheltenham, then be stranded if your friend could not take you back.

I can't see how you can reconcile these two statements. They are contradictory.

When I say "ticket from Cheltenham to Bristol" in my posts, I mean this in its simplest sense, this is what I meant, however it is not what I said... which is where the confusion may come from. There have been 6/7 letters sent to TIL in which I speak about this, I am just simply stating why I intended.

If that is your intention I would suggest on the day of the court action you seek out the prosecutor of your case and see if you can reach a settlement with them there face to face before going into court. I fear that once in court it may very well be too late as you are either guilty or not and, from what you've said so far, particularly what you said in post #117, you will very likely be found guilty of charge being made against you.

How you feel about your guilt or innocence is irrelevant in the eye of the law.

Again, thank you for some form of advice which I am seeking! So if I am to have a hearing in court on 11th April, I am yet to send off my plea form and financial forms. And I intend on sending TIL one final letter along with written statements from my friends. what should I do? If I can please ask for some form of step by step 'guide'. I just want to have everything in order, so that I can continue with my dissertation and other essays to finish my degree without any more stress! Thank you

 

[talldave]

When I say "ticket from Cheltenham to Bristol" in my posts, I mean this in its simplest sense, this is what I meant, however it is not what I said... which is where the confusion may come from. There have been 6/7 letters sent to TIL in which I speak about this, I am just simply stating why I intended.

..I rest my case!!

 

[20052534]

..I rest my case!!

I mean in these posts, on this forum!!!!

I said on the day "Can I have a ticket to Bristol please" and explained my reasoning for this. That is why I thought he would understand my circumstances and that I could not afford to get back to Sheffield, and that he would just charge me for the journey of Cheltenham to Bristol!!!

 

[DaleCooper]

When I say "ticket from Cheltenham to Bristol" in my posts, I mean this in its simplest sense, this is what I meant, however it is not what I said... which is where the confusion may come from. There have been 6/7 letters sent to TIL in which I speak about this, I am just simply stating why I intended.

If the clarity and consistency of your letters is similar to your posts on this forum I'm not surprised at TIL's actions. This may seem harsh but if you do not present the facts clearly and consistently then the knowledgeable people on this forum cannot give good advice. If you think we're picky wait until you get to court.

 

[20052534]

If the clarity and consistency of your letters is similar to your posts on this forum I'm not surprised at TIL's actions. This may seem harsh but if you do not present the facts clearly and consistently then the knowledgeable people on this forum cannot give good advice. If you think we're picky wait until you get to court.

I understand what you're saying, they have been consistent, just what I said in the letters is different to what I said on the posts to help you understand it easier. I feel like I've said a lot of the things over an over again, and I'm getting tired of doing it... just as I'm sure that you're all getting tired of reading them. But I've come here for help/advice, not to be interrogated! Like I say, I'm just trying to give you the information in simple forms.

 

[ainsworth74]

But I've come here for help/advice, not to be interrogated!

It is worth considering that this is, of course, exactly what will happen in court. So whilst it might be annoying/difficult/unpleasant it is worth thinking about what it will be like in the much less forgiving situation of a court room rather than this internet forum

 

[20052534]

It is worth considering that this is, of course, exactly what will happen in court. So whilst it might be annoying/difficult/unpleasant it is worth thinking about what it will be like in the much less forgiving situation of a court room rather than this internet forum

Ha! Agreed. But can you see where I am coming from? I have come here for advice. I'm not going to a court room for advice... If they do not believe what I say then I can do nothing more but use my witnesses as evidence, then maintain that I have tried to pay for any sum of monies to settle it out of court.

edit: and ask for anything to be looked at where something might not have been sent out to me/ definitely not received, or a procedure going wrong somewhere.

 

[bb21]

but I do believe that something somewhere went wrong, perhaps its just me being stubborn, but I just don't see why I cant settle out of court given that I've stated ill pay all costs necessary!

The way I see it, where it all went wrong is when you asked for a ticket from Cheltenham to Bristol. That combined with a Leeds to Sheffield ticket and unusually falling asleep for such a long journey (even if just between Sheffield and Birmingham) makes the whole thing scream of "doughnutting". Therefore I am not surprised at the slightest that they are reluctant to settle.

The way I read it, the guard did not charge you, nor did he propose to charge you, for the journey to Cheltenham. Generally in these situations, a passenger who is genuinely innocently overcarried would seek advice on how to get back, and would most likely then to have the ticket endorsed to travel back on the next service. In my experience, even without an endorsement, the guard on the next service back would be able to put two and two together, when presented with your ticket, and most likely allowed travel back to the intended destination for free. I have done this numerous times and this has always been my experience. Did you seek advice on what happens with the fare for the return journey when he gave you the times for the journey back?

The moment you asked for a Cheltenham to Bristol ticket, you suddenly fit the profile of a fare-dodger perfectly, so the fare for your full journey was requested, and an MG11 made out subsequently when you refused to pay. If you were simply allowed to purchase the Cheltenham to Bristol fare, how would you have proposed to pay the fare from Sheffield to Cheltenham, seeing that you claimed you could not afford the fare for the full journey at the time?

When an MG11 was submitted, there is no obligation on the train company to let you have your say, if they consider that they had sufficient evidence to prosecute. They could proceed directly to court. They do not have to allow you to pay your fare retrospectively as this is now a potential criminal matter.

All this seems rather unfortunate if it were not your intention to fare-evade, but sometimes in life luck is not on our side.

edit: if I can just tell them this, and that they can see I'm not a dishonest person, could they not then decide on a settlement without any convictions or records?

A settlement is always a possibility, even, as someone mentioned above, right to the minute before the hearing, so don't give up.

That said, you may have to be prepared for the eventuality of having this case heard in court as, it would seem from what you described, XC are intent on going through with this. I can only echo the advice that you seek professional help if you intend to plead "not guilty", but as with others, I am not confident on your prospect of success down that avenue.

edit: and ask for anything to be looked at where something might not have been sent out to me/ definitely not received, or a procedure going wrong somewhere.

Possibly, although unless you are truly desperate, I would advise against pinning much hope on it. I cannot see anything obviously wrong in your case from what you described.

 

[najaB]

Possibly, although unless you are truly desperate, I would advise against pinning much hope on it. I cannot see anything obviously wrong in your case from what you described.

Certainly, even if CrossCountry haven't followed their own internal policies it would have very little (if any) impact on the verdict if this goes to court. It *might* result in a lower fine if you were found guilty, but even that is speculative at best.

 

[island]

Intent is a matter of law, not a matter of what you think you intended to do.

When you travelled and either did not have the means to pay for your journey or were unwilling to use it when asked to pay, that is evidence in law of an intent to avoid payment.

The offence has been committed and XC is entirely entitled to prosecute it.

You wanted advice and here it is: get a solicitor. First thing Tuesday.

 

[najaB]

You wanted advice and here it is: get a solicitor. First thing Tuesday.

Alternatively, plead guilty.

 

[island]

Alternatively, plead guilty.

Not unreasonable, but only do it eyes-open — you will get a criminal record which you'll need to disclose for life when applying for certain jobs and for a year or more for others. On the other hand, the eventual fine will be lower on an early guilty plea than on conviction after trial.

 

[najaB]

I understand what you're saying, they have been consistent, just what I said in the letters is different to what I said on the posts to help you understand it easier.

This is the problem, your story as presented here hasn't been consistent:

This is how it went:
Ticket inspector walked passed me, I stopped him and said "can I get a ticket to Bristol - explained my reasons for this (too expensive to go back to Sheffield and friend would pick me up in Bristol).
I never said where I wanted the ticket from. This is where my naïve decision came in, feeling that he would understand and just charge me from Cheltenham so that I could get back.

Yet previously you said:

The guard then walked passed almost immediately, but to a point where he didn’t see me, as he walked passed I flagged him and said “excuse me sir, would you be able to give me a ticket from Cheltenham to Bristol” and explained all of the above.

That is you quoting yourself as specifically asking for a ticket from Cheltenham. This is only one of several contradictions in your recounting of events.

 

[dosxuk]

How could I? I wouldn't have had any money to live or eat when moving into my new student house.

Both Universities in Sheffield provide emergency grants and loans for their students in exceptional circumstances, which these would almost certainly be granted as. You should have been told about this during your induction in your first year.

Yes, you would probably have to pay the money back before you could graduate, and it would only be enough money to pay rent and buy basic food, but you wouldn't be left starving and homeless. If you were only waiting for your actual loan to come through though, it's likely it would have been handled by giving you an advance on that loan, meaning no further action would be needed.

 

[ian959]

Put yourself in this situation... You fell asleep on a train, went passed your intended stop, inspector seemed understanding and accepted this reason. A ticket back to Sheffield was too expensive and so you contacted a friend in Bath to ask of a favour.

Now if I had gotten off at Cheltenham, I could have easily done so and bought a ticket to travel further down IF that was my intention, this would have all been forgotten about. End of.

However, this was not my intention, and so, thought he would understand my circumstances and what my plan was to do, in terms of getting back to Sheffield with little money.

When this took a turn that was unexpected though, I chose not to pay it because I simply could not afford to.

What would you have done? Besides get off at Cheltenham, then be stranded if your friend could not take you back.

The hole you are digging for yourself is getting bigger and bigger and I am sorry to say is sounding more like an attempt to concoct a story. The one and only time I over journeyed due to falling asleep, I got off at the next stop, which so happened to be Hereford, and sought out a staff member to find out what I could do. I did not have enough money to pay the return fare to my original intended destination but they let me travel on what I guess was an unpaid fare notice which I promptly paid the next day. Simple, easy and no stress.

No reasonable person just stays on the train and deliberately seeks out a ticket for a shorter journey than they have actually made unless they intend to avoid payment of the full fare for that journey. Everything you did would be seen as reasonably consistent with the actions of someone who was trying to evade a fare.

You had a phone with you and could have easily arranged everything with your mates to ensure that you would not be "stranded" at Cheltenham Spa...

 

[simonw]

The hole you are digging for yourself is getting bigger and bigger and I am sorry to say is sounding more like an attempt to concoct a story. The one and only time I over journeyed due to falling asleep, I got off at the next stop, which so happened to be Hereford, and sought out a staff member to find out what I could do. I did not have enough money to pay the return fare to my original intended destination but they let me travel on what I guess was an unpaid fare notice which I promptly paid the next day. Simple, easy and no stress.

No reasonable person just stays on the train and deliberately seeks out a ticket for a shorter journey than they have actually made unless they intend to avoid payment of the full fare for that journey. Everything you did would be seen as reasonably consistent with the actions of someone who was trying to evade a fare.

You had a phone with you and could have easily arranged everything with your mates to ensure that you would not be "stranded" at Cheltenham Spa...

Quite. Why did the very generous Bath friend not offer to pick you up in Cheltenham? You meaning the OP.