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Derailment at Paddington - 2017-08-20

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Crossover

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I doubt the driver would have felt the wheels come off from right up the other end, but I'm wondering, what (if any) alarms / anomalies could potentially have come to his attention in the cab to tell him the other PC had gone to ground?

I'm not connected with the industry so cannot answer the question definitively, but I imagine in a HST, there may not be much to say the other PC had gone to ground until someome interevened or something intervened such as a break in the continuity.

Just like on a freight, it isn't unknown for wagons to run derailed for miles, tearing up the infrastructure as it goes
 
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delticdave

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I spent about 5 hours watching the rerailing operation this evening and chatting to some of the staff.
All references to left, right, leading and trailing below are relative to the train as it was when departing Paddington. Power car refers to the one that derailed unless clearly noted otherwise.

When it came to rest the leading bogie of the power car had pivoted to the left, such that the leading left wheel was derailed to the six foot side of the left rail and the leading right rail was to the four-foot side of the right rail. All other wheels on the left side of the power car did not derail. The rear right wheel of the trailing bogie was derailed to the four-foot side of the right rail. I was only able to observe from the platform 1 side so I could not see the position of the other two wheels, but based on observations of the actions of the rerailing crew, the trailing right wheel of the leading bogie was also derailed, almost certainly to the four foot. Based on the actions of the staff and photos I've seen from right after the derailment occurred, I believe it likely that the leading right wheel of the trailing bogie was also derailed. If it did derail it did so to the four foot.

The immediate cause of the derailment of the trailing three axles (assuming all derailed) was gauge spread. It is likely that this is also responsible for the derailment of the first axle, but it is not impossible for the gauge spread to be the consequence of the leading axle derailing. I do not know in which order the axles derailed.

The track here is supported by chairs on longitudinal timber bearers. Approximately where (or very shortly ahead of where) the inner (leading on departure) bogie of the power car came to a stand on arrival on the previous journey, the timber bearer supporting the right (platform side) rail gave way. It is believed (but not proven) that this was the or at least a causal factor. All the investigation activity was focused on the track, and almost all around the point of the bearer damage.

The unit travelled a distance of approximately 50 chairs from start to final stop. At least two, possibly four wheels ran on top of the clips securing the right hand rail in the chairs and/or the bolts securing the chairs to the bearers. From a point approximately 10 chairs after the point of the obvious bearer collapse to where the unit came to a stand most (but not all) clips were missing and some of the bolts were clearly damaged. There was no obvious track damage at all between the point of the bearer damage and the buffers, so it seems very unlikely any wheels ran in the four foot before this point. A section at least of platform 2 will be relaid. Preparation for this was starting when I left around 11pm, but I don't know how long it will take. One of the rerailing crew did not think it would be completed overnight.
The break pipe was undamaged and did not separate. The rear power car was detached and the rest of the train moved about half a coach length forwards for ease of access to the derailed leading bogie by the rerailing crew, but once rerailed the train was connected up again and appeared to pass a break test. The power car did not suffer any significant damage that was apparent to me or to those who inspected it, and after rerailing it was dragged to the depot (presumably Old Oak Common) at slow speed where it would undergo a full exam. No wheel skates were required.

It was reported that when the unit derailed it did so with a very loud bang. I was not there to hear it but my supposition is that this was the sound of one of more wheels dropping off the rail into the four foot. It was also reported that the guard gave the signal to stop but it was sufficiently loud that the driver /might/ have been able to hear it. Whether they did or not is unknown to me.

I took lots of photographs but have not had a chance to download them yet.

Thanks for publishing some very useful & informative information!

(Unlike the meaningless drivel re. bells / whistles, etc.)
 

Steddenm

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I doubt the driver would have felt the wheels come off from right up the other end, but I'm wondering, what (if any) alarms / anomalies could potentially have come to his attention in the cab to tell him the other PC had gone to ground?

Also while we're at it with alarms, can someone solve a mystery for me - what on earth is that 4-tone fanfare at Southern stations? I hear it all the time when I'm on their metals!

The four-tone I know on Southern (and South Western Railway) stations is usually to alert you to look at the CIS. It can sometimes warn about "Stand well back from the platform edge - the next train is not scheduled to stop at this station", "This train is ready to depart - please stand clear" or sometimes "** Correction **" when it goes a bit Bristols-up.
 

spark001uk

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The four-tone I know on Southern (and South Western Railway) stations is usually to alert you to look at the CIS. It can sometimes warn about "Stand well back from the platform edge - the next train is not scheduled to stop at this station", "This train is ready to depart - please stand clear" or sometimes "** Correction **" when it goes a bit Bristols-up.

No this is like a proper fanfare, of 4 rising notes. No announcement. I think maybe the other poster is right, could be a TRTS sig for the driver or something?
 

tsr

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No this is like a proper fanfare, of 4 rising notes. No announcement. I think maybe the other poster is right, could be a TRTS sig for the driver or something?

No, nothing to do with TRTS (not that a TRTS needs to be signalled to a driver, nor does it have an audible noise on the platform).

It'll just be something to do with the CIS system - possibly a platform alteration, or a non-stop train passing through, for which the verbal announcement does not trigger immediately at some locations.
 

43096

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If you're not dispatching from a guard's van then you don't have one

As the TGS was at the back, dispatch would be from the TGS van. By far the fastest way to stop the train in the situation at Paddington is to signal one on the buzzer, and AIUI that is what was done.
 

D1009

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HSTs can jolt lots when moving off, performance is highly variable, and the rear power car is ten vehicles away. The Driver would have been unaware until the power car was sufficiently seriously enough derailed to have either severed the brake or air lines, or have effectively become wedged against something.
So you are seriously trying to tell me that an HST could depart Paddington with a vehicle becoming derailed without the driver noticing? But I realise I was responding to an anti DOO post, so never let facts get in the way...
 

RJ

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No, nothing to do with TRTS (not that a TRTS needs to be signalled to a driver, nor does it have an audible noise on the platform).

It'll just be something to do with the CIS system - possibly a platform alteration, or a non-stop train passing through, for which the verbal announcement does not trigger immediately at some locations.

It normally sounds around 15 seconds before the scheduled departure of a train sitting in the platform, with no further announcement. The screens inform the passenger that the train is ready to leave.
 

Dhassell

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So you are seriously trying to tell me that an HST could depart Paddington with a vehicle becoming derailed without the driver noticing? But I realise I was responding to an anti DOO post, so never let facts get in the way...

It would probably become obvious pretty quick with some performance issues of some sort... If it was to happen in a station I expect the TM would realise there was an issue pretty quick.
 

TheEdge

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So you are seriously trying to tell me that an HST could depart Paddington with a vehicle becoming derailed without the driver noticing? But I realise I was responding to an anti DOO post, so never let facts get in the way...

Yes, I would imagine it wouldn't get out the platform before the driver realised performance was really hampered by something. But at low speed it may look for a short time like dragging/slow brakes or a sluggish set. The only way you would get an immediate indication in the cab would be if it was serious enough of a derailment to break the brake pipes.

There are countless incidents of (often freights) dragging derailed vehicles. One I know of is at March, a pair of 37s took a freight out, with a derailed vehicle, brake pipes remained connected, 37s overpowered the added friction of the derailed vehicle. Wasn't stopped till a signaller noticed it pass his box.
 

daikilo

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So you are seriously trying to tell me that an HST could depart Paddington with a vehicle becoming derailed without the driver noticing? But I realise I was responding to an anti DOO post, so never let facts get in the way...

The issue here is the power car and I cannot believe a driver would attempt to go very far on departure with obvious discrepancies from the rear PC. That said, the derailmant appears to have happened within the berthing section of the incoming power car thus other operational rules may apply.
 

tsr

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It normally sounds around 15 seconds before the scheduled departure of a train sitting in the platform, with no further announcement. The screens inform the passenger that the train is ready to leave.

Many stations have no audible warning for the "Ready to Leave" message - it's very much dependent on location (eg. various bits of Victoria have visual but no audio). Some have no such message on the displays either, yet!

There are a couple of different 4-tone chimes or jingles, and can be played for special messages of all sorts. There is an instrumental one, and a more synthetic sounding version, for starters. There's also a single high-pitched tone which sounds for some platform alterations.
 

IanXC

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Ouch!

RAIB said:
The failed timbers had been identified as needing replacement during their preceding detailed annual inspection, which had been carried out by the local track section manager in November 2016.

[snip]

Replacement of the decayed timbers was subsequently planned for June 2017. However, witness evidence indicates that this work was postponed in order that works associated with electrification of the Great Western Main Line could be carried out. At the time of the accident on 20 August, replacement of the timbers had been rescheduled for September 2017.

[snip]

On the morning of 26 August 2017, a member of the public found a section of decayed longitudinal timber, approximately 1.5 metres long, that had fallen onto the road from the railway bridge passing over the junction between St Ann’s Road and Seven Sisters Road, in the London Borough of Haringey. The timbers had been identified as requiring replacement within twelve months in each of the three preceding detailed annual inspections, however the renewal work had not been carried out due to a lack of funding.

Sounds like there is a distinct lack of knowledge of maintenance of these timbers, although it is suggested that Kent Route has a particular expertise on this topic.
 

BestWestern

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The issue here is the power car and I cannot believe a driver would attempt to go very far on departure with obvious discrepancies from the rear PC. That said, the derailmant appears to have happened within the berthing section of the incoming power car thus other operational rules may apply.

To comment on a rather old post, what 'discrepancies' are you suggesting he should be aware of? The two power cars of an HST operate as two separate units, they of course receive common control signals but the Driver at the front of the train has very little information about what the power car at the rear is doing. Jolting, snatching and patchy or poor acceleration are not at all uncommon, and in the initial stages of a station departure it would likely only be when the rear loco came to grief or severed it's brake pipe that the Driver would be aware of the situation developing behind him.
 
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yorksrob

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Ouch!



Sounds like there is a distinct lack of knowledge of maintenance of these timbers, although it is suggested that Kent Route has a particular expertise on this topic.

I wonder where on the South Eastern that is. Hungerford Bridge perhaps ?
 

IanXC

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I wonder where on the South Eastern that is. Hungerford Bridge perhaps ?

The 'Kent Route' being the Network Rail sector - broadly the area operated by Southeastern. As compared to the 'London North Eastern Route' or the 'Western Route'.
 

yorksrob

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The 'Kent Route' being the Network Rail sector - broadly the area operated by Southeastern. As compared to the 'London North Eastern Route' or the 'Western Route'.

Ah yes, I was speculating on the whereabouts of their abundance of longitudinal timbers !
 
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