Disabled Person's Railcard - can rail staff ask about the disability?

[34D]

that's the silkiness of councils charging blue badge holders in council-owned car parks. Since badge holders can park free on double yellow lines for three hours surely it makes more sense to allow them to park for free in car parks and so discourage the need for double yellow parking?

They can't park on yellow lines! It's only if there are no other spaces and they need it genuinely

 

[Peter Mugridge]

They can't park on yellow lines! It's only if there are no other spaces and they need it genuinely

From the DfT blue badge guide, ref: T/INF/1214 page 15:

Badge holders may park on single or double yellow lines for up to three hours but in general not where there are restrictions on loading or unloading - indicated by yellow kerb dashes and / or signs on plates.

 

[fireftrm]

To clarify an answer earlier

To ask about the disability would be definitely an offence under the Equality Act, this could be harassment and, or, discrimination. It does not matter if the individual is actually offended themself, as anyone overhearing the question can be offended on their behalf, or for themself. I would have been, had I been there and I would have complained. Discrimination comes in by either being direct, or indirect. Likely the former would apply as the guard did it ask the ability if every passenger.

Very serious event, which should, at the very least, lead to extended training and removal from customer facing work until resolved, more serious disciplinary action may be required. The company could face a very large payout, should any person complain about this. It is utterly indefensible and outrageous.

 

[Daniel]

Does visual impalement entitle you to a blue badge? Genuine question - it has always been my belief that you get this for mobility reasons only but I, of course, could be wrong...

If you're registered partially sighted, then no, there is no automatic entitlement. However, if you are registered 'severely visually impaired', (which IIRC is classed as vision worse than 6/60), you are categorised as blind, and are entitled to one even though you can see somewhat.
With that in mind, with regards to someones earlier comment about two people getting out of a car in a disabled bay and going jogging - my partner would be fine going for a jog with me, as I have become accustomed to mentioning kerbs, potholes, lamp-posts etc as we walk down the road. She wouldn't be able to do this by herself, though. She also hates walking with her white cane, (unless to/from work whilst it is dark), specifically because she hates feeling singled out/different, which I suppose is the whole point of this thread.

They can't park on yellow lines! It's only if there are no other spaces and they need it genuinely

Well, arguably, anyone who holds a blue badge would 'genuinely' need to park there... but nonetheless, they can park on yellow lines, subject to the necessary restrictions on loading/unloading, not causing an obstruction, and a time limit. They are even entitled to stop on double red lines to pick up or set down a disabled passenger.


An interesting side note for anyone reading this thread who holds a disabled persons rail card, it is also worth remembering that disabled passengers are also entitled to some discounts on rail fares without a railcard, which can sometimes provide a higher discount than with a railcard. For example, as myself and my partner rarely travel on advances, it is by far cheaper for us to gain a CON50 (50% discount) as a disabled passenger plus carer, on presentation of a certificate of visual impairment, than to receive a 34% railcard discount on the same (Anytime Day) fare. As such, and taking into account our regular travel pattern, my partner does not actually hold a DPRC, as it would not save her any money. It's just an interesting little side note on this conversation, as it's something I don't feel is very widely published.

 

[Greenback]

It's not widely known Daniel.

To my embarrassment, when I worked in the booking office, my employer had not included anything about the discount in their training and induction, and I had to be told of it by a passenger.

At least learning about it that way ensured I never forgot about the 50% concession!

 

[LowLevel]

I ended up printing the relevant page off the internet to keep with me as I can never remember the specifics and its hard to find out on a moving train otherwise!

 

[TUC]

I forgot about the 50% discount being available on Anytime Day Returns without a railcard. My wife and I will make use of that when travelling together. One question I have is which websites tickets with this discount can be booked? It's perhaps not surprising that external retailers like RSH appear not to be aware of it. What is of more concern is that the. National Rail website does not appear to include it as an option. Yes I know we could just buy the ticket at the station but, given the general lack of knowledge about it, it would help avoid delays at ticket offices by just buying it in advance, especially if we want to combine it with other savings like split ticketing.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

If it was available online everyone would buy it and then claim a disability which, apparently, it is against the law to ask about on grounds of discrimination. :roll:

 

[cjmillsnun]

If it was available online everyone would buy it and then claim a disability which, apparently, it is against the law to ask about on grounds of discrimination. :roll:

Agreed, it's a restricted entitlement ticket, and written proof of entitlement is needed to purchase it (like you need proof of entitlement to get a DPRC in the first place). It's ticket office (or guard if it's a station without a ticket office) only.

 

[TUC]

Although, given that it states in the conditions that you need some form of proof that you are visually impaired, there's no reason why you could not simply be required to produce that on the train when tickets are checked-and before someone sats that on-train staff could not be expected to recognise what such a document should look like, the same is almost certainly true of ticket office staff so it's not an argument against on -line availability.

 

[PermitToTravel]

Although, given that it states in the conditions that you need some form of proof that you are visually impaired, there's no reason why you could not simply be required to produce that on the train when tickets are checked-and before someone sats that on-train staff could not be expected to recognise what such a document should look like, the same is almost certainly true of ticket office staff so it's not an argument against on -line availability.

Indeed on-train staff need to be able to recognise such a document for people wanting this discount from unstaffed stations!

 

[Tetchytyke]

If it was available online everyone would buy it and then claim a disability which, apparently, it is against the law to ask about on grounds of discrimination. :roll:

It is only valid with proof, so you can ask to see the proof can't you?

No different to asking a BritRail pass holder to show their passport.

 

[WelshBluebird]

If it was available online everyone would buy it and then claim a disability which, apparently, it is against the law to ask about on grounds of discrimination. :roll:

Oh come on. This is bit of a different situation to asking someone what their disability is because you can't see why they are disabled so you judge them as putting it on (even though most disabilities aren't visible right away).

 

[aleph_0]

If it was available online everyone would buy it and then claim a disability which, apparently, it is against the law to ask about on grounds of discrimination. :roll:

People have disabilities, which allow them to obtain documents to prove they are entitled to discounts. This allows you to evaluate validity without knowledge of the customer's disability.

Whether it is legal or not, asking people who have presented you with proof of entitelment about the details of their disabilities is a Bad Thing. Similarly, inferring that someone isn't disabled because you can't see that they're disabled is a Bad Thing.

But asking for the appropriate documents is clearly reasonable. As would be spotting fake documents.

And, as has been pointed out previously, if you believe someone needs assistance, knowledge of their exact disability isn't needed. The passenger already knows their needs better than anyone, and it's simply a case of asking what assistance is required.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

It is only valid with proof, so you can ask to see the proof can't you?

Priv tickets are also only valid with proof of entitlement, but you can't buy those online either.

.....No different to asking a BritRail pass holder to show their passport.

Excepting the small matter of not being able to buy a BritRail pass without a foreign address and the logistics of getting hold of one if you couldn't get them online......

....And, as has been pointed out previously, if you believe someone needs assistance, knowledge of their exact disability isn't needed. The passenger already knows their needs better than anyone, and it's simply a case of asking what assistance is required.

Maybe the passenger thinks they know all they need to, but that doesn't mean that they actually do, they may have overlooked something.

 

[Timster83]

It is only valid with proof, so you can ask to see the proof can't you?

No different to asking a BritRail pass holder to show their passport.

Not to nitpick, but UK citizens can also be foreign residents but would still be UK passport holders.

 

[PermitToTravel]

UK residents can also hold foreign passports but Arctic Troll was correct as I believe the proof that needs to be shown when using a Britrail pass is a foreign passport (you wouldn't be able to obtain one without a foreign address though)

 

[aleph_0]

Maybe the passenger thinks they know all they need to, but that doesn't mean that they actually do, they may have overlooked something.

So, we're looking for a scenario where a passenger with a disability that is presumably hidden in this context, doesn't know their needs to an extent that the need for the guard to know details of the person's disability outweighs the intrusion caused.

I agree this is theoretically possible, but I'm struggling to imagine how this would happen in practice.

 

[plastictaffy]

If the punter is carrying a Disabled railcard, that's his business. I'll apply the relevant discount and be on my way. I don't give a monkeys' what the disability is. It's none of my business, and makes no difference to any discount applied.

"Oh sorry, you're only blind, no discount sorry"........

"Oh yes, you're in a wheelchair and I can see you have no legs, please, have 33% discount........"

 

[SussexMan]

If it was available online everyone would buy it and then claim a disability which, apparently, it is against the law to ask about on grounds of discrimination. :roll:

Capita's website Railooto which is a corporate site certainly allows discounted disabled person's tickets to be purchased online (non-railcard ones) as I have done it quite a few times.

 

[Deerfold]

UK residents can also hold foreign passports but Arctic Troll was correct as I believe the proof that needs to be shown when using a Britrail pass is a foreign passport (you wouldn't be able to obtain one without a foreign address though)

No, we've had threads on here where British ex-pats have come home for a visit and used a Britrail pass.

And confirmed at: http://www.britrail.net/passes/britrail-pass

Eligibility:

You can buy a BritRail Pass if you are not a UK resident.

 

[TUC]

The issue of residence is also far from clear in terms of the DPR, as well as the BritRail pass. The FAQs on the DPR website at http://www.disabledpersons-railcard.co.uk/what-is-a-disabled-persons-railcard/faqs/eligibility includes the following:

'I don't live in Great Britain or receive UK disability benefits - can I apply for a Disabled Persons Railcard?

Unfortunately we do not have the resources or expertise to be able to validate documentation from outside the United Kingdom (UK) so we can only accept UK-based documentation as proof of eligibility.

We are unable to send Railcards overseas, so all applications must include a delivery address in Great Britain.

People from outside the UK are advised to find out about the Britrail Pass which gives excellent savings to visitors to Britain... .'

The problem with this response is that it seems to use 'Great Britain' and 'United Kingdom' interchangeably when they actually have different meanings. Great Britain is England, Scotland and Wales, whereas United Kingdom is these plus Northern Ireland (leaving aside islands like the Isle of Man which are a different issue in themselves). Northern Ireland has DLA and so the issue of being able to validate overseas documents does not arise. However the question in the FAQ is about not living in Great Britain and the answer includes needing to have an address in GB. This therefore leaves unclear whether people in Northern Ireland are eligible for DPRs (for use when visiting Great Britain, not for use on Northern Ireland Railways). They are UK residents and so not eligible for the BritRail pass set out as an alternative above, and can evidence receipt of DLA. Yet the reference to needing an address in Great Britain would seem to exclude them. Are they eligible or not? Is it just sloppy use of Great Britain vs United Kingdom on the website? For them to be the sole group not entitled to either a DPR or a BritRail pass would seem unreasonable.

 

[Be3G]

Indeed, a lot of people don't seem to realise the difference between Great Britain and the United Kingdom! Fortunately, elsewhere on the Disabled Railcard website the situation for NI residents is clarified.

 

[TUC]

Indeed, a lot of people don't seem to realise the difference between Great Britain and the United Kingdom! Fortunately, elsewhere on the Disabled Railcard website the situation for NI residents is clarified.

Thanks for pointing that out. It's a pity they don't at least cross-refer between the two sections, given that it's hidden in a section on validity of the DPR in Northern Ireland or the Republic (for DPR users generally, not just Northern Irleland ones) rather than in the eligibility section.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Not to nitpick, but UK citizens can also be foreign residents but would still be UK passport holders.

Very true, but the most basic type of eligibility proof for a BritRail pass is a foreign passport. If you're an ex-pat you can use BritRail passes, but the evidence is (of course) very different.

 

[TUC]

Not to nitpick, but UK citizens can also be foreign residents but would still be UK passport holders.

Very true, but the most basic type of eligibility proof for a BritRail pass is a foreign passport. If you're an ex-pat you can use BritRail passes, but the evidence is (of course) very different.

But what evidence could ex-pats use in that situation? It's not just ex-pats actually. There will be people who hold UK passports by virtue of their patents' nationality and who have never set foot in the Uk until the point they are visiting it with a Britrail pass.

 

[John @ home]

But what evidence could ex-pats use in that situation?

When a UK citizen working in Brussels asked that question, it was suggested that the tenancy agreement of their flat in Brussels would be a useful document to carry with their BritRail pass.

That may not be the case if it's written in Flemish!

 

[neilmc]

The FAQs for a Brit Rail pass says that staff may require proof of foreign residency - and the passport must be presented when first validated. So for example my British son working in Oman would be able to buy and use one when he comes to visit the UK, although what constitutes "proof of foreign residency" would be a bit vague, I suppose that in reality any non-UK passport would be accepted and only UK passport holders would be queried re residency when attempting to validate.

 

[bb21]

UK residents can also hold foreign passports but Arctic Troll was correct as I believe the proof that needs to be shown when using a Britrail pass is a foreign passport (you wouldn't be able to obtain one without a foreign address though)

No such requirement.

If a TM wants me to show him on board that it is my ticket then I show him my driving licence. Never been told it was unacceptable.

The only requirement is to show proof of foreign residence at validation (not passport but a foreign one would normally suffice). No requirement to carry ID when travelling.

 

[infobleep]

Is there a Web Site explaining Con50 entitlement and requirements? Brief search brought up this forum thread!

I know someone who is registered blind but is unaware of CON50. They do hold a disabled persons rail card. I'm sure they wouldn't object to additional savings.

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