Do we need trains that accelerate faster and brake later?

[J-2739]

Sorry if I seem naive, and if this is in the wrong board but...

I've seen videos of trains in different countries (like Germany or Japan) and the way some of their commuter trains pull out of the station leaves our trains to dust.

Also, our trains seem to start braking sooner at an approach to a station, while our continental cousins have their trains brake later, but even harder.

Does anyone know why this is the case, and if a change for us to emulate other countries would improve journey times? Or would it be all expensive?

 

[trash80]

I don't see why rapid acceleration/de-celeration would be a good thing if you were a passenger.

 

[The Planner]

Arguably, there is nothing to stop us doing that with what we have now.

 

[Domh245]

British driving tends to be defensive, meaning gentler braking, whilst I tend to get the impression that Japanese railways are timed to the second meaning that you tend to get more exact driving. Not really sure about why differences might arise between us and Germany, but driving culture would probably play a part as well.

The other consideration of course is the rolling stock, particularly for acceleration. We have a lot of EMUs with 1 powered car propelling 2 or 3 non-motored cars, which obviously limits acceleration. The more modern stock with more motored axles seem to be quite capable of accelerating very quickly.

 

[J-2739]

I don't see why rapid acceleration/de-celeration would be a good thing if you were a passenger.

I've seen trains like that in other countries. While they do shift a little, they don't show particular discomfort.

 

[Mag_seven]

Do We need Trains that Accelerates faster, and Breaks later

I'd rather it stayed in one piece thank you

 

[trash80]

I just think it can be a bit wearing after a while, judging by long journeys on the underground

 

[J-2739]

British driving tends to be defensive, meaning gentler braking, whilst I tend to get the impression that Japanese railways are timed to the second meaning that you tend to get more exact driving. Not really sure about why differences might arise between us and Germany, but driving culture would probably play a part as well.

The other consideration of course is the rolling stock, particularly for acceleration. We have a lot of EMUs with 1 powered car propelling 2 or 3 non-motored cars, which obviously limits acceleration. The more modern stock with more motored axles seem to be quite capable of accelerating very quickly.

Yes, that all makes sense!

As our trains get more modern, our trains get more similar to our continental units. How hard would it be to change the the driving cultures to be similar to our continental cousins?

 

[philthetube]

It would also increase disruption in poor rail adhesion conditions

 

[J-2739]

I'd rather it stayed in one piece thank you

That's what I always think when I enter a Pacer!

I just think it can be a bit wearing after a while, judging by long journeys on the underground

It would be faster if these changes were implemented.

 

[Bromley boy]

Sorry if I seem naive, and if this is in the wrong board but...

I've seen videos of trains in different countries (like Germany or Japan) and the way some of their commuter trains pull out of the station leaves our trains to dust.

Also, our trains seem to start breaking sooner at an approach to a station, while our continental cousins have their trains break later, but even harder.

Does anyone know why this is the case, and if a change for us to emulate other countries would improve journey times? Or would it be all expensive?

Is there any evidence that trains are driven more aggressively in Europe or Japan?

I imagine the same considerations would apply all over the world i.e. defensive driving, leaving something in reserve in case of unexpected low adhesion etc. Things are obviously different on closed underground systems where there is much lower risk of low adhesion.

Certainly my TOC's policy is "defensive" e.g. max 20mph at 200m from a red signal, including if the signal is at the end of a platform. It's also frowned upon to regularly use brake step 3 as this leaves you with nothing in reserve apart from emergency (and in the case of a heavy train the emergency brake step won't deliver any more brake force than step 3).

There is little incentive for drivers to drive aggressively. Timetabling is so tight it's impossible to make time up and if you slip through a station or SPAD your job is at risk.

 

[fulmar]

How hard would it be to change the the driving cultures to be similar to our continental cousins?

All TOCs will have a professional driving policy and all drivers will be driving according to the instructions and guidance contained within those policies; at least they should be. Of course the TOCs could always change their instructions and guidance to encourage drivers to approach stations faster, brake later and leave less margin for error, but that would be a decision for the TOCs and not for individual drivers. Personally I think current practice strikes the right balance between performance and safety.

As for acceleration, most of the equipment is already being worked as hard as it can be. Faster acceleration would require modifications to existing equipment, building new trains which can accelerate faster or spending lots of money removing speed restrictions.

 

[coppercapped]

Sorry if I seem naive, and if this is in the wrong board but...

I've seen videos of trains in different countries (like Germany or Japan) and the way some of their commuter trains pull out of the station leaves our trains to dust.

Also, our trains seem to start breaking sooner at an approach to a station, while our continental cousins have their trains break later, but even harder.

Does anyone know why this is the case, and if a change for us to emulate other countries would improve journey times? Or would it be all expensive?

It depends on the type of train you are considering. S-Bahn trains in Germany have a high power-to-weight ratio and accelerate very well. However braking (not breaking) is much more gentle at least in the open sections. On the underground sections in central Munich braking is more similar to what one would expect on the London Underground. Swiss railways brake hard and late and my experience of the Paris suburban system is that braking techniques are more like ours. Acceleration depends on the power-to-weight ratio and it a bit dependent on the age of the stock - older trains tending not to have so much power.

German trains, like their cars, always have enough horsepower but the braking of longer distance trains is more dependent on the track layout on the approaches to the stations. Having said that continental administrations don't seem to be so concerned about SPADs...

...which may be one of the reasons why the UK railways are the safest in Europe by a country mile.

 

[HSTEd]

The FASTECH Project in Japan produced a Shinkansen set that could stop from 320km/h in under 4000m. Indeed they had one that could do it from 360km/h but that had air brakes.

Now that would increase the capacity on HS2!

 

[randyrippley]

I don't believe the premise in the OP's original question is correct - or at least as regards European Rail (I've never been to Japan so can't comment on there).
Over the years I've ridden trains in Holland, Italy, Germany and France and I can't say I've noticed any great difference between their acceleration / braking characteristics and ours. If there is a difference the only likely cause is that wider use of electrification gives enhanced performance over our primarily DMU culture. However if you compare like with like: European electrics with British electrics there's no difference.

 

[The Planner]

There is little incentive for drivers to drive aggressively. Timetabling is so tight it's impossible to make time up and if you slip through a station or SPAD your job is at risk.

There is certainly an argument that SRTs that were achievable in the past are either tight or impossible now based on defensive driving policies. Operators then refuse to increase to reflect actual running. Double edged sword.

 

[superkev]

Perhaps tram style magnetic track brakes would air braking particularly during the leaf fall season.
K

 

[najaB]

Perhaps tram style magnetic track brakes would air braking particularly during the leaf fall season.
K

Not going to happen. If NR doesn't like eddy brakes there is no way they are going to allow magnetic friction brakes.

 

[AlexNL]

In my experience, German drivers have a much more agressive driving style when compared to their Dutch counterparts. Acceleration is quicker (especially with fast EMUs such as the Talent2) and it feels like braking is done as late as possible.

When I'm using a Dutch train I can easily stand in the vestibule without holding on to anything without falling over. I tried doing that once in a German train and I nearly fell onto someone else as the driver was braking quite hard as he pulled into the platform. I wouldn't call it uncomfortable, but definitely more agressive than what I'm used to.

 

[theageofthetra]

One of the numerous things that impressed me about Japanese railways was the speed with which they enter a station they are due to stop at.

On the main commuter lines around Tokyo a 14/15 coach commuter train would generally arrive at the end of each platform at
100kmh stopping usually just short of the platform end. Thats pretty much double what most UK trains would do ('enthusiastic' drivers excepted!)

I suspect they have a form of semi automation to do this plus no issues with adhesion despite being there in autumn and on occasion in drizzly conditions. The quality of their permanent way is an eye opener.

 

[BestWestern]

I seem to remember reading somewhere that under BR rules back in the day, standard procedure was to drop the anchors straight at Step 3 (a full brake application), whilst now the done thing is to brake earlier, gently? So perhaps we did have a more aggressive style, once upon a time? The problem of course is the much reduced margin for error.

There are some trains which still drop the anchors quite spectacularly; an HST encountering a restrictive signal aspect at 125mph is always quite impressive!

 

[Minilad]

General rule of thumb for me is 30 at the platform ramp if the signal is off. 20 at the AWS if not. 15 if it's a terminating platform. Subject to any lower limits being in place of course.
Any station stops I do I want to do as smoothly and fuss free as possible as you are always aware that people will probably be up on their feet collecting luggage and such like. Any higher and it would mean an aggressive stop which could easily knock people off balance.
For me I take pride in delivering a smooth ride for my adoring public and because of that I drive defensively and do not take risks. Even if I am late I don't drive any different as that is when things can go wrong. I know some drivers won't have that attitude and will do things their way but thats up to them. It's their record.
Of course this time of year its even more important to be careful when braking and always have a little held back just in case.
Voyager brakes in the dry are very good and it's good to know if you have to stop quick you can. When we were doing Voyager handling before introduction we were encouraged to do sharp stops to get the feel of the limits of braking. I remember coming into Banbury on the up and hitting the platform ramp at 70 and stopping fully on the platform with a full brake application. Definitely not recommended with people on!!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Do we need trains with more acceleration? I'd say yes. Modern EMUs like Desiros are good at this, and it takes time off journey times. I must admit to being disappointed that the S-stock on LU, which is otherwise very good, doesn't accelerate like modern European EMUs.

Do we need less leeway for braking? Probably not.

 

[edwin_m]

Do we need trains with more acceleration? I'd say yes. Modern EMUs like Desiros are good at this, and it takes time off journey times. I must admit to being disappointed that the S-stock on LU, which is otherwise very good, doesn't accelerate like modern European EMUs.

Do we need less leeway for braking? Probably not.

S stock is probably current limited at present due to the poor power supply. When the final D78s are out of the picture I believe LU intends to increase the traction voltage up to 750V, which ought to make a difference.

 

[samuelmorris]

In my opinion it actually does - the drivers just very rarely make use of it. On some very rare occasions you do get to experience that the acceleration power is there, but very seldom is it ever used to that extent. I'm rather hoping that when the surface routes go ATO (coupled with the 750V changeover which I assume is still happening?) there'll be a Jubilee-like step change in performance.As it stands now I expect the S stock to be capable of a good 20% reduction in between-station journey times.

 

[Dave1987]

Do we need trains with more acceleration? I'd say yes. Modern EMUs like Desiros are good at this, and it takes time off journey times. I must admit to being disappointed that the S-stock on LU, which is otherwise very good, doesn't accelerate like modern European EMUs.

Do we need less leeway for braking? Probably not.

Modern EMUs only accelerate hard up to around 50mph after that they start the acceleration peters off considerably as they are geared for low acceleration. Can take them a considerable amount of time to reach v-max.

 

[bastien]

To be fair, I think we're already doing this for the acceleration part. The most direct comparison I can think of is:

Class 442 - 1600hp
Class 444 - 2700hp

 

[D365]

On the underground sections in central Munich braking is more similar to what one would expect on the London Underground.

Don't forget that LZB is used on the 'Stammstrecke', which is their equivalent of ATO.

I must admit to being disappointed that the S-stock on LU, which is otherwise very good, doesn't accelerate like modern European EMUs.

S stock is probably current limited at present due to the poor power supply. When the final D78s are out of the picture I believe LU intends to increase the traction voltage up to 750V, which ought to make a difference.

Yep that's right, most third and fourth rail units have their current draw capped. The difference can be noticed on Thameslink, for example.

 

[87015]

Don't forget that LZB is used on the 'Stammstrecke', which is their equivalent of ATO.

Eh? The LZB is simply a cab signalling system - it gives a aim speed to the driver effectively reading signals further down the line - and doesn't have anything to do automated driving.

 

[Fincra5]

The problem with some EMUs is that the power supply isn't great on 3rd rail land. Its voltage is fairly low for what you're trying to shift. A 12 Car 377 accelerates much slower than a 4 car version... Now if 3rd rail land was OHLE you might see faster acceleration.