ECS - why not run as passenger services?

[mp01]

Why do early morning/late evening ECS trains not run for passengers? The type of workings I'm thinking of are ECSs from Neville Hill to Sheffield, class 67 running ECS from Bristol to Taunton and so on. Admittedly some would be at very obscure times, but surely it only needs a couple of paying punters to justify running these as passenger trains?

What am I missing?

 

[scotsman]

the fact that these runs are timed to run non-stop

 

[MidnightFlyer]

They'd need guards

 

[O L Leigh]

Plus they don't always run station to station, but direct to depots and carriage sidings. There are also issues of staffing, as ECS can be run with just a driver (even where DOO is not the norm) and staffed stations may be closed.

O L Leigh

 

[Turbostar]

So, there's nothing wrong with running ECS from Barton Hill to Temple Meads, then non-stop to Taunton.

 

[mp01]

So, even running non-stop and needing guards, how many paying passengers would it need from, say, Leeds to Sheffield, non-stop to pay for the guard's salary for that stretch of route? About one?

 

[GB]

It could also be the case that some ECS may not be fit for public service.

 

[Bonemaster]

Potentially a lot especially if the guard signs on at the ECS destination station, you would have to pay for the guard to get to the first station call rather than just pick them up

 

[9K43]

Its a long walk from Neville Hill Depot to Leeds Station.
I have been at NH at 0500hrs when all the HST's for Sheffield and Bradford were leaving NH to go thier respective ways.
I have also been at NH at 0100hrs when some of the workings get back for servicing.
They as mentioned go DOO as ECS.
Also the Virgin Flyers came from Crofton Depot into Leeds at 0500hrs.
The respective drivers are taken back to Leeds City, unless they have thier own transport home.
I was at NH to deal with the Earles sidings to Hunslet East cement trains, and 6E17/6M17 from Peak Forest to Stourton and return stone train.

 

[4SRKT]

You also potentially need to open (and therefore staff, light, heat etc) some stations earlier/later than you would otherwise.

 

[jon0844]

What about liability insurance? My local bus company has stated that they'd be in DEEP trouble if they ever allowed a passenger to 'hitch a ride' on a bus that's out of service and returning to the depot. I live right by the depot, so it would actually enable me to get a couple of extra buses late at night (basically, buses that finish at the train station and then go back).

FCC has, however, made the former staff train that runs around 4-4.30am a service for passenger use. I've used it once and it's amazing how everyone on it seems so friendly and willing to say 'good morning' etc.

An hour or two later and it's back to silence for the whole day - at least until people are drunk for their journey home!

 

[142094]

When GC run ECS from Sunderland to Heaton they have to pass Newcastle, so you'd think it would be easy enough for them to allow pax on from Sunderland to Newcastle. However as has been said the guards/staff normally leave at Sunderland. In addition it might be a condition of the permission from the ORR that GC cannot stop at Newcastle as well.

 

[fgwoll1e]

It's also worth noting, ECS can easily be cancelled or diverted because of engineering works without the worry of having to provide road transport.

 

[Aictos]

What about liability insurance? My local bus company has stated that they'd be in DEEP trouble if they ever allowed a passenger to 'hitch a ride' on a bus that's out of service and returning to the depot. I live right by the depot, so it would actually enable me to get a couple of extra buses late at night (basically, buses that finish at the train station and then go back).QUOTE]

There are exceptions to the rule though especially with major disruption, first time I had to use a Bus ECS.

 

[met331]

usually empty stock is routed away from the usual routes for drivers to retain knowledge. For example Nottingham - Worksop 03.25 is routed via Pye Bridge
03:10 Nottingham - Liverpool via Dore curve and Chat moss
If these routes are unavailable it doesnt matter but with passengers they have to be advertised and replaced if they cant run.
As a different classification ( class 5 ) they can routed differently and have a low priority for pathing therefore cost less to operate

 

[mumrar]

Also, if an ECS has a guard travelling and goes via a torturous route they don't sign, it doesn't matter. Add passengers and then route knowledge is required. This can happen quite easily at XC as drivers are harmonised and guards&TM's are not.

 

[me123]

Interestingly, MBTA (in Boston, MA, USA) seem to run a few trains like this. Very early morning departures from Boston, making very few stops, often leaving a couple of hours before the next train.

I don't know the area, but it's presumably to get stock in place for the morning rush hour. And it does make sense, to an extent. If you've got a train with a driver and a guard/TTI as required, then why not run it with passengers on it? You may as well carry passengers and at least attempt to make some revenue out of the service, even

Obviously, it's not suitable for every scenario. You can't really carry passengers into depots or sidings for obvious reasons. But there are some quite lengthy ECS runs, and I don't see why they couldn't carry passengers (provided it's feasible to do so, of course). Could help offset some of the costs associated with running the empty trains, and in this economic climate every little helps!

 

[Greenback]

Didn't Virgin convert some ECS working to public trains when they ran XC?

 

[blue sabre]

When GC run ECS from Sunderland to Heaton they have to pass Newcastle, so you'd think it would be easy enough for them to allow pax on from Sunderland to Newcastle. However as has been said the guards/staff normally leave at Sunderland. In addition it might be a condition of the permission from the ORR that GC cannot stop at Newcastle as well.

Dont they go across the king Edward bridge though and miss out Newcastle station completely?

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Sorry but No. There isn't a route from Heaton depot to Sunderland that does not pass through Newcastle Central station.
(Perhaps you're thinking of the High Level Bridge which is east of Newcastle Central, but the only lines across it come off the station, so a reverse in the station would be required to cross that bridge).

 

[sprinterguy]

Dont they go across the king Edward bridge though and miss out Newcastle station completely?

Yes they do cross the King Edward Bridge, and hence DO pass through Newcastle Central station, as the only other way of reaching Heaton depot from the Durham coast is via the High Level Bridge, which would then require a reversal in Newcastle station. So either way, the GC ECS workings pass through Newcastle station.

Ah, got there just before me!

 

[Geezertronic]

Can anyone confirm whether the 0741 BHI-EUS which runs ECS from Oxley to Birmingham International goes via the Aston/Stechford spur (avoiding New Street)?

 

[ivanhoe]

usually empty stock is routed away from the usual routes for drivers to retain knowledge. For example Nottingham - Worksop 03.25 is routed via Pye Bridge
03:10 Nottingham - Liverpool via Dore curve and Chat moss
If these routes are unavailable it doesnt matter but with passengers they have to be advertised and replaced if they cant run.
As a different classification ( class 5 ) they can routed differently and have a low priority for pathing therefore cost less to operate

Are you saying that a train runs empty to Liverpool from Nottingham? If so what kind of message is this saying about Carbon Footprints? I am totally gobsmacked if this is the case. Can't they stable at Liverpool? Employ Liverpool based drivers and guards?

 

[tbtc]

Are you saying that a train runs empty to Liverpool from Nottingham? If so what kind of message is this saying about Carbon Footprints? I am totally gobsmacked if this is the case. Can't they stable at Liverpool? Employ Liverpool based drivers and guards?

That's the trouble of having the service run from the east midlands...

Not worth employing a Liverpool staff for an hourly train service, so cheaper to run a train 100 miles empty each day than retain a base on Merseyside

Then again, what demand would there be for a train that early in the morning?

 

[EltonRoad]

Another one comes to mind - doesn't an HST run empty every day from Leeds depot to Hull, to form the service to King's Cross, then back again empty in the evening? Guess it wouldn't fit EC's service pattern to run that in service, though.

 

[RPM]

Another issue with a lot of ecs workings is they tend to be very slow and tedious. You are often right on the tail of a service train, crawling along on yellow signals. It wouldn't really be acceptable for a scheduled passenger service.

 

[ivanhoe]

That's the trouble of having the service run from the east midlands...

Not worth employing a Liverpool staff for an hourly train service, so cheaper to run a train 100 miles empty each day than retain a base on Merseyside

Then again, what demand would there be for a train that early in the morning?

Perhaps if train companies could co-operate then this sort of nonsense, and I mean nonsense, could be avoided.How many other examples are there of 100 mile empty stock journeys ? please re-assure me that the Nottingham example is not widespread!

 

[142094]

Dont they go across the king Edward bridge though and miss out Newcastle station completely?

Some do go over the King Edward, and then use the avoider to get to Heaton, so in a sense they do miss out the station completely. When the platforms are free they can come in over the High Level and reverse. I was at Central once when a HST did this, although the driver did not go along the platform enough so the back end of the HST was past the platform starter signal. He had to walk back to the other end to move it a bit further.

 

[met331]

Up until about 12 months ago 2 trains went ecs to Liverpool now they couple at Nottingham and travel together to Liverpool. Under Central days it was operated from Crewe depot however it was stabled at Tyseley. Crewe is now a London Midland depot so it has to operate from Nottingham.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The last service the 19.29 Nottingham - Manchester Piccadilly returns as ECS everyday. If you want waste try the 2 taxis that travel to crewe from Derby and Nottingham to operate the first 2 crewe services. A nottingham driver and a Derby Guard operate the first service and have a taxi each and the second has a derby driver and a nottingham guard both have their own taxi. No member of train crew likes using taxis but the evening trip back uses a taxi as well back to nottingham. The trains are serviced at Crewe

 

[43034 The Black Horse]

So, there's nothing wrong with running ECS from Barton Hill to Temple Meads, then non-stop to Taunton.

Ermmm. There is.

Cost.

It just isn't viable cost wise.