Entire 800/801/802 fleet stood down for safety checks

[Davester50]

A Twitter search for "800 (from:lner)" reveals that during the entire history of the Twitter account, @LNER (presumably originally under different name when it was VTEC) have beginning from 2014 made posts mentioning "800" (in the context of Class 800) a total of 34 times, of which 10 were in the last two days (and the last one before those was 6 months ago). Of these 34 posts, 8 also included the word "azuma", none of which in the last two days. It could certainly be argued that this inconsistency in terminology is confusing to the average traveller.

Completely agree.

LNER Twitter in January 2020

People know what an Azuma looks like, not everyone knows what a Class 800 is. This joke is accessible to everyone, not just train enthusiasts. ^BG

Which proves they're doing their best to avoid tainting the brand name.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

On returning 91s to service will LNER be changing the diagrams to keep them away from Newcastle/Edinburgh services, as they interwork at the moment due to limited platform availability at King’s Cross? There’s very few captive South of York diagrams that don’t end up at Bounds Green or Doncaster (Azuma only Depots)

 

[spark001uk]

Thanks ! Yes Friday looks the better bet - although she may have already brought her ticket ( I know fridays are more expensive) I don't think the Waterloo - Exeter trains even have a catering trolley anymore ?

Irony is she was going to drive, but thought going by train would be less stressful! I did have a look at National Express to Exeter, but don't think the 787 Cambridge - Heathrow is running to connect to the Exeter Coach, and pick up the train at St Davids.

I would imagine under the circumstances if already purchased, her ticket could be changed? Not 100% sure.
As for catering, I think it's still suspended on pretty much all TOCs?
Coach is always an option if a suitable route can be found, if rail ticket can be refunded (if already bought).

 

[Wallsendmag]

As for catering, I think it's still suspended on pretty much all TOCs?

Not for LNER and we have the new Eat at your seat delivery service.

 

[pelli]

A Twitter search for "800 (from:lner)" reveals that during the entire history of the Twitter account, @LNER (presumably originally under different name when it was VTEC) have beginning from 2014 made posts mentioning "800" (in the context of Class 800) a total of 34 times, of which 10 were in the last two days (and the last one before those was 6 months ago). Of these 34 posts, 8 also included the word "azuma", none of which in the last two days. It could certainly be argued that this inconsistency in terminology is confusing to the average traveller.

Completely agree.

People know what an Azuma looks like, not everyone knows what a Class 800 is. This joke is accessible to everyone, not just train enthusiasts. ^BG

Which proves they're doing their best to avoid tainting the brand name.

Things are even worse on their own website: Searching "800 site:lner.co.uk" reveals that their website only contains the text "800" in the correct context three times:

"Azuma train (800 101) has been decorated with a dedicated poppy design"
"This guide will help you understand the layout of our Class 800/801 'Azuma' fleet of trains."
"Disruption was caused by a number of Hitachi Class 800 trains being removed from service"

Obviously, only one of these pages doesn't also contain the word "Azuma".

 

[DelW]

I don't think the Waterloo - Exeter trains even have a catering trolley anymore ?

AFAIK there's no catering on any SWR services now (which I think is permanent not a Covid temporary move).

 

[Ashley Hill]

There's an intention that 387s to Swindon could start as early as the middle of this week.

They will need guards on to run in passenger service west of Didcot as DOO ends there.

 

[Steve Harris]

The aircraft industry are past masters of investigating monocoque structural cracking including the use of repetitive destructive testing in a rig to handle large pieces of aluminium. Does Hitachi or other railway body have such equipment and expertise?

I was wondering the same thing tbh.

I have personally seen 2 C130 wings in a rig (attached to a centre wing) and by using hydraulic rams, being "flapped" like a bird (thereby simulating the stresses of taking off, flight and landing etc). All the data being logged by strain gauges and visual/NDT inspections carried out.

This testing actually lengthened the time between inspections (as they had actual data rather than just calculations and theory to go on).

I wonder if an Azuma carriage has ever been flexed in a similar rig to simulate various travel cycles.

 

[Mag_seven]

They will need guards on to run in passenger service west of Didcot as DOO ends there.

Guard training for 387 operation Didcot to Swindon is being undertaken as confirmed by @FGW_DID

Some Guard training was being done today at Swindon Cocklebury. I think Tuesday is the idea for them to start.

 

[Hadders]

Thanks ! Yes Friday looks the better bet - although she may have already brought her ticket ( I know fridays are more expensive) I don't think the Waterloo - Exeter trains even have a catering trolley anymore ?

Irony is she was going to drive, but thought going by train would be less stressful! I did have a look at National Express to Exeter, but don't think the 787 Cambridge - Heathrow is running to connect to the Exeter Coach, and pick up the train at St Davids.

Couple of options if GWR isn't an option, depending on the ticket held:

1. Travel Stevenage to London then Waterloo to Exeter with SWR (change at Salisbury), then to Falmouth
2. Travel Stevenage to Peterborough, then Peterborough to Birmingham New Street, then Birmingham New Street to Truro, and Truro to Falmouth

 

[randyrippley]

The aircraft industry are past masters of investigating monocoque structural cracking including the use of repetitive destructive testing in a rig to handle large pieces of aluminium. Does Hitachi or other railway body have such equipment and expertise? Should they bring in BAE to help with investigation if not?

Boscombe Down has the expertise

 

[Taunton]

As well as the obfuscation about whether the defective trains are Class 800, or Azuma, or IET, or all of these, there is also the issue of actual ownership and responsibility for them. As I understand it this belongs to Agility Trains Ltd, despite all the public notices referring to Hitachi, who are a major but not the only owner of Agility; the latter have just subcontracted their construction to the Hitachi company.

If the costs of defect remediation turns out to be substantial, I wonder what the DfT has in place to guard against Agility thinking it's not worth their while to do the work, and declaring bankruptcy.

 

[Horizon22]

They will need guards on to run in passenger service west of Didcot as DOO ends there.

Yes I'm aware - guard training has started.

 

[Ashley Hill]

Yes I'm aware - guard training has started.

Thanks to you and Mag_seven for confining that. Presumably that would be Swindon guards initially. Are 387s cleared for S Wales yet. There was always talk of using them on rugby specials etc,could the IET issue see them running through the tunnel now guards are learning them?

 

[JonathanH]

Thanks to you and Mag7 for confining that. Presumably that would be Swindon guards initially. Are 387s cleared for S Wales yet. There was always talk of using them on rugby specials etc,could the IET issue see them running through the tunnel now guards are learning them?

It is reported that the paperwork isn't yet in place for 387s to go west of Swindon, the drivers who could take them west currently only sign as far as Bristol Parkway even if the paperwork was in place.

 

[Horizon22]

Thanks to you and Mag_seven for confining that. Presumably that would be Swindon guards initially. Are 387s cleared for S Wales yet. There was always talk of using them on rugby specials etc,could the IET issue see them running through the tunnel now guards are learning them?

Swindon and Reading I believe. Yep all those plans are somewhere in the ether, Covid naturally putting a halt to some of them.

 

[Steve Harris]

As well as the obfuscation about whether the defective trains are Class 800, or Azuma, or IET, or all of these, there is also the issue of actual ownership and responsibility for them. As I understand it this belongs to Agility Trains Ltd, despite all the public notices referring to Hitachi, who are a major but not the only owner of Agility; the latter have just subcontracted their construction to the Hitachi company.

If the costs of defect remediation turns out to be substantial, I wonder what the DfT has in place to guard against Agility thinking it's not worth their while to do the work, and declaring bankruptcy.

Apart from (according to Companies House) Agility Trains Ltd was dissolved in 2015!
However there are company's called Agility Trains East Ltd & Agility Trains West Ltd, along with Holding companies to boot, so I'm pressuming it will be 1 or more of them Dft will be talking to.

Btw @Taunton I know what your saying, I'm just trying to clear up a clerical error.

 

[Pokelet]

Just to give an indication of how seriously Hitachi are taking this, one of the "marooned" sets moved up from Temple Meads to Stoke Gifford today at a max speed of 5 mph. I believe it was due to go out in service yesterday when the message was passed to the driver that it his service was cancelled, and not to be moved anywhere.

Crikey, it'll take days for the sets at Worcester to get there then

 

[43094]

To answer a question up thread, MK4 diagrams won’t go north of York.

There is a way to do this with the plan for this coming week(days), on the proviso that no more than 2 MK4 diagrams would be in use on any given day.

 

[ABB125]

Crikey, it'll take days for the sets at Worcester to get there then

Can they not be inspected by a "man in a van" in the yard at Worcester, and only go to Bristol if repairs are needed?

 

[fgwrich]

Can they not be inspected by a "man in a van" in the yard at Worcester, and only go to Bristol if repairs are needed?

Unlikely I would have thought - it all needs NDT (Non Destructive Testing) which will probably need to be done over a pit to reach the harder to see areas.

 

[snowball]

As well as the obfuscation about whether the defective trains are Class 800, or Azuma, or IET, or all of these, there is also the issue of actual ownership and responsibility for them. As I understand it this belongs to Agility Trains Ltd, despite all the public notices referring to Hitachi, who are a major but not the only owner of Agility; the latter have just subcontracted their construction to the Hitachi company.

If the costs of defect remediation turns out to be substantial, I wonder what the DfT has in place to guard against Agility thinking it's not worth their while to do the work, and declaring bankruptcy.

Does Agility (with detailed name corrected as in #1173) own all the 80x's, or, as I would have thought, only the 800s and 801s that are part of deals with the DfT, as distinct from the 802s, 803s, 805s, 807s and 810s?

 

[JonathanH]

Does Agility (with detailed name corrected as in #1103) own all the 80x's, or, as I would have thought, only the 800s and 801s that are part of deals with the DfT, as distinct from the 802s, 803s, 805s, 807s and 810s?

GWR Class 802 leased from Eversholt
TPE and Hull Trains Class 802 leased from Angel Trains
East Coast Trains Class 803 leased from Beacon Rail
Avanti Class 805 and 807 leased from Rock Rail West Coast
EMR Class 810 leased from Rock Rail East Midlands

 

[yorkie]

Class 91+ MK4 sets will be deployed by LNER from Tuesday; a dedicated diagrams thread has been created: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/lner-91-mk4-diagrams.217215/

 

[Snow1964]

Just to give an indication of how seriously Hitachi are taking this, one of the "marooned" sets moved up from Temple Meads to Stoke Gifford today at a max speed of 5 mph. I believe it was due to go out in service yesterday when the message was passed to the driver that it his service was cancelled, and not to be moved anywhere.

I would love to know the science behind that 5mph, if day before were doing 125mph. Used to be dynamic loading was related to square of the speed, so someone has decided load on the brackets needs to be under 1/600 of the day before.

Obviously a visual inspection to ensure not completely broken and hanging off (where it could catch something), but I fail to see why they can’t be used in a speed restricted mode of something like 50mph if they pass a no visible (to the eye) cracks test.

 

[Horizon22]

The first XC set has run without fail and on-time into Swindon (1Z10)

Realtime Trains - 1Z10 0525 Bristol Temple Meads to Swindon

Realtime Trains provides live realtime running information for the Great British railway network using open data.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[Bill_Lestrange]

The monitoring that Bill was referring to was that of the quality of raw materials received by the train manufacturer (As referred to in the article linked in #1006) rather than any routine inspection of the finished stock.
Metallurgical analysis of the materials used may well be useful, but obviously that would require the disposal of a significant part.
That may eventually be necessary in order to to determine whether this problem is a design, materials, manufacturing or even a usage / maintenance process issue.

This is it plus if you recognise that certain parts are likely to have material defects, instigating a rolling programme of replacing them to parts that are confirmed to be up to standard rather than waiting for faults to develop seems to be the safest course of action.

We are exceptionally lucky here that there was only cracking observed. The problem with material stress is that there are a lot of factors that govern it, and a shear incident can occur before cracks are even testable if material defects are present in the bulk of the material.

 

[REVUpminster]

What about the class 395 running for 9 years or is this Newton Aycliffe problem.

 

[73128]

First up GWR IET this morning 0554 IL01 Bristol Parkway (BPW) to Reading (RDG) has recently left 61 late, behind the 0700 (1L05). 0522 1B00 Paddington to Newport also heading down right now (but 26 late leaving BPW with a fairly tight turn round due at NWP into 0726 1L07 back up to RDG).

At least three sets are safe to be allowed out.

 

[hexagon789]

What about the class 395 running for 9 years or is this Newton Aycliffe problem.

Depends on the exact nature of the problems. If it is parts quality then that in itself could be why the 395s seem unaffected

So who are Agility Trains?

Hitachi, John Laing and Axa UK