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EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

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Domh245

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Having now had the opportunity to have a quick skim over the paper, I do find myself agreeing with some commentators that it is a rather 'impressive' 77 pages with very little information conveyed in it. As one comment I saw put it

"If I turned in something so vague in my job after 7 months I would be fired."

Also this hilarious* excerpt from May's foreword (and speech from the 17th of January):

And another thing that’s important. The essential ingredient of our success. The strength and support of 65 million people willing us to make it happen. Because after all the division and discord, the country is coming together.

The referendum was divisive at times. And those divisions have taken time to heal. But one of the reasons that Britain’s democracy has been such a success for so many years is that the strength of our identity as one nation, the respect we show to one another as fellow citizens, and the importance we attach to our institutions means that when a vote has been held we all respect the result. The victors have the responsibility to act magnanimously.
The losers have the responsibility to respect the legitimacy of the outcome. And the country comes together.

La La Land indeed!

*In a dark sort of way
 

pemma

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The white paper has been found to contain misleading information

A chart on page 32 of the Brexit White Paper has raised a few eyebrows by claiming UK workers are currently entitled to a generous 14 weeks of annual leave.
It comes in a section comparing employment rights in the UK with the rest of the EU.
According to the government, the correct figure for someone working five days a week is 28 days.

The slip perhaps reflects a possible rush to publish the White Paper with metadata on the file suggesting it was still being worked on at 04:15 GMT.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-38846696

Obviously David Davies forgot that a MP's holiday entitlement is significant more than the legal minimum!
 

Howardh

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The strength and support of 65 million people willing us to make it happen
Which is a bit like asking Liverpool fans to get behind Man U in the European Cup Final.
Sorry, Theresa - I might get behind the Single Market and the Custom's Union as a least-worst senario, a kind of deep sigh of relief, and I'd be positively skipping if we could stay in the EEA - but the vision you have given us of a country sailing off to the middle of the Atlantic, edging towards a piece of hair with a rather small but loud gob, makes me shudder.
 

pemma

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The ICO has said changes to personal data regulation caused by the EU General Data Protection Regulation announced in May 2016 will be retained post-Brexit.
 

NSEFAN

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Which is a bit like asking Liverpool fans to get behind Man U in the European Cup Final.
Sorry, Theresa - I might get behind the Single Market and the Custom's Union as a least-worst senario, a kind of deep sigh of relief, and I'd be positively skipping if we could stay in the EEA - but the vision you have given us of a country sailing off to the middle of the Atlantic, edging towards a piece of hair with a rather small but loud gob, makes me shudder.
We won't be sailing, we will instead be flying.

:D
 

Senex

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I notice Northern Ireland has already disappeared- if only:)
The obvious thing for Northern Ireland to do if May goes head with her hard Brexit is to leave the United Kingdom and join the Republic. If only there were some similar option for us on the mainland of GB.

Who speaks now for the amost half the voters who wanted nothing to do with Brexit, let alone a hard Brexit? We are being totally and utterly ignored by the triumphalist Tories and -- unlike after a general election where the losing side tend to be represented by a vociferous Opposition -- the Labour Opposition is being led by Corbyn in such a way as not to oppose the Tories at all. Do we have to look to the SNP to voice our fears?
 

EM2

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http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/01/dominic-cummings-brexit-referendum-won/
A very long read, but I'm going to pull out one point.
(My bolding, btw).
‘The official bill of EU membership is £350 million per week – let’s spend our money on our priorities like the NHS instead.’ (Sometimes we said ‘we send the EU £350m’ to provoke people into argument. This worked much better than I thought it would. There is no single definitive figure because there are different sets of official figures but the Treasury gross figure is slightly more than £350m of which we get back roughly half, though some of this is spent in absurd ways like subsidies for very rich landowners to do stupid things.)

Pundits and MPs kept saying ‘why isn’t Leave arguing about the economy and living standards’. They did not realise that for millions of people, £350m/NHS was about the economy and living standards – that’s why it was so effective. It was clearly the most effective argument not only with the crucial swing fifth but with almost every demographic. Even with UKIP voters it was level-pegging with immigration. Would we have won without immigration? No. Would we have won without £350m/NHS? All our research and the close result strongly suggests No.
Dominic Cummings is/was a director of Vote Leave.
 

radamfi

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At least most Northern Irelanders can get an Irish passport if they want and thus have the option of staying in the EU.
 

AlterEgo

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At least most Northern Irelanders can get an Irish passport if they want and thus have the option of staying in the EU.

All people born in Northern Ireland are automatically citizens of Ireland. However that doesn't mean they "stay in the EU", as living in NI would mean they were outside the EU. It would only mean freedom of movement.
 

Busaholic

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The obvious thing for Northern Ireland to do if May goes head with her hard Brexit is to leave the United Kingdom and join the Republic. If only there were some similar option for us on the mainland of GB.

Who speaks now for the amost half the voters who wanted nothing to do with Brexit, let alone a hard Brexit? We are being totally and utterly ignored by the triumphalist Tories and -- unlike after a general election where the losing side tend to be represented by a vociferous Opposition -- the Labour Opposition is being led by Corbyn in such a way as not to oppose the Tories at all. Do we have to look to the SNP to voice our fears?

The guy leading the EU side of the 'negotiations' whose name I cannot recall at present was on 'Newsnight' a week or so ago and seemed (to me, anyway) to suggest at the end of his interview with Evan Davis that those in the UK who wished it would still be allowed to hold an EU passport, at least, which might confer some advantages to its holders. Scant consolation, perhaps, but straw-clutching may be all we have left.:)
 

Domh245

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Well the bill is off to the Lords, passed 494 to 122 so 30 by my calculation 4 abstentions.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38902484

MPs have overwhelmingly agreed to let the government begin the UK's departure from the EU as they voted on the Brexit bill.

The draft legislation was approved by 494 votes to 122, and now moves to the House of Lords.

Shadow business secretary Clive Lewis was one of 52 Labour MPs to defy party orders to back the bill and he resigned from the front bench.
 

EM2

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Brexit advocate James Dyson invests £300 million in a new research and development centre – in Singapore.

http://www.thelondoneconomic.com/ne...-brexit-make-us-richer-moves-jobs-asia/16/02/

Billionaire Sir James Dyson who campaigned for Brexit on the grounds that it would “make us richer” has just announced he is creating hundreds of jobs – in Asia.

The entrepreneur condemned Remain campaign claims before the referendum that British exports would fall in the aftermath of a vote to quit the union as “absolute cobblers”, saying Britain would actually be £18.5 billion better off every year if voters back Brexit.

But following Dyson’s decision to move 500 jobs to Malaysia in 2002, the company has just invested £300 million in a new research and development centre – in Singapore.

Clearly struggling to put his money where his mouth is Sir James said that his firm’s products were still British engineered when he decided to move jobs out of Britain. But that is all about to change.

The “Technology Centre” in Singapore will give Dyson the capability to create a “24-hour research and development cycle” and is its first research and development site outside of the UK.

The investment will see 200 jobs been created at the centre to add to the 1,000 already employed in the region, all from a man who campaigned to make Britain rich again following a vote to leave the European Union.

Comment:

Dyson commented that the reason for the 2002 move was due to planning permission in the local area, which the company was refused. According to sources at the firm if Dyson had remained in Britain we would not be employing the number of people they are today – some 9,000 people around the world in 75 markets.

Dyson employs 3,500 engineers and scientists of which half are in Britain. It also employs 2,500 people in highly skilled jobs in Malmesbury, Wiltshire, with a plan to double its engineering numbers by 2021.

Dyson says there is a dearth of engineering skills in Britain, whereas there isn’t in Singapore.

But to combat the issue in Britain, James has set up a foundation – known as the James Dyson Foundation – to encourage more young people to go into engineering as a career. This was set up in 2002 and has invested £65 million since it was founded. It is heavily focused on Britain.

To further attempt to fill the engineering skills gap in Britain – Dyson has just announced the opening of the Dyson Institute of Technology. The students will not only earn a salary but their tuition towards the engineering degree will be free.

In September 2016 Dyson opened its new £250 million 56 acre Technology Campus in Wiltshire, England. The new facilities provide 129 laboratories for future product development, with over 200 live technology projects as well as 50 active research programmes with 40 universities around the world. The Campus employs 2,500 Dyson people, and will be home to the Dyson Institute of Technology when it opens in September 2017.

The ambition for the Tech Centre in Singapore is to allow Dyson to bring technology to market quicker, growing the company, and ultimately this will allow us to employ more people, globally.

Dyson is currently spending £7m a week on R&D this year.

Dyson employed 1,261 people in the UK last year and plan to employ many more this year.
 

YorkshireBear

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Sorry, it's politics.

With the Remoaners carrying on about how the majority "got it wrong" this article makes my heart sink thinking of how well he sorted out the WCML.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...nson-virgin-group-eu-referendum-a7430396.html

He is free to do what he wants with his money as you are free to do the same with yours.

When people believe passionately and strongly in something do not ever expect them to just give up. It is not how humans generally work.
 
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shakey1961

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Of course, and he's entitled to free speech too, but we've had the vote. Accept it and get on with it.

Sorry I'll go on for hours if left alone.

Does Politics and Railways mix? Obviously not by the state of some of the TOCs.
 

adamello

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Maybe he as a muti-national - multi-company business man, can see the real benefits / detriments of the outcome and wants to fund the PR of his choosing
 

DynamicSpirit

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Of course, and he's entitled to free speech too, but we've had the vote. Accept it and get on with it.

A question for you: If the vote had been 'That all foreigners living in the UK must be put to death' and had passed 52-48%, would you be saying that, the vote has happened, we must accept it and get on with it (presumably, by executing all the foreigners), or would you be saying, no, this is wrong, and campaigning with all your heart for the Government to do the right thing and (presumably) not follow through on the referendum result?
 

3141

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A question for you: If the vote had been 'That all foreigners living in the UK must be put to death' and had passed 52-48%, would you be saying that, the vote has happened, we must accept it and get on with it (presumably, by executing all the foreigners), or would you be saying, no, this is wrong, and campaigning with all your heart for the Government to do the right thing and (presumably) not follow through on the referendum result?

I think this hypothetical question doesn't help to clarify the issue, because such a vote should never be possible in a country in which an individual's liberty can be taken away only if he/she has been found guilty of a crime, and which doesn't have the death penalty. Perhaps a more realistic question would be what people would do if there had been a referendum to reinstate the death penalty, and outcome was to do that. I think those who thought that was wrong would have every right to continue to say so.

My view is that because people have a right to their opinion and to express it in a lawful way, anyone who wanted to stay in the EU is entitled to say so. I have no doubt that the Leavers would have continued to campaign to leave, if the vote had gone the other way. After there's been a General Election, and one political party has formed a government, no-one suggests that those who voted for another party must keep quiet and accept everything the new government proposes.

The problem after the Brexit vote is that it's a new kind of situation. How far should Remainers go? At present the government is rightly working towards implementing the wish of the majority. It IS conceivable that as the implications are more widely appreciated, public opinion may shift. If it became clear that another referendum would produce a different outcome, I think it would be perverse to claim that 23 June 2016 decided the matter for all time.

We do have to make up our minds, because this isn't a matter where we can alternate between Yes and No every few years. That may be a very difficult idea to grasp at the time people are casting a vote.
 

Senex

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I think this hypothetical question doesn't help to clarify the issue, because such a vote should never be possible in a country in which an individual's liberty can be taken away only if he/she has been found guilty of a crime, and which doesn't have the death penalty. Perhaps a more realistic question would be what people would do if there had been a referendum to reinstate the death penalty, and outcome was to do that. I think those who thought that was wrong would have every right to continue to say so.
So let's bring it to the death penalty. Suppose a referendum produced a 52 to 48 majority for a re-introduction of the death penalty, do you think that any government would then just argue that "the will of the people" must be obeyed without further question? I rather think that MPs would insist that such a slight majority was no firm basis for action and they must be allowed to vote according to their own consciences as the respresentatives, not the delegates, of the people. Curious how in this case they are all expected to stop being thinking people and go through the division lobbies just like a herd of cattle.
 

ChiefPlanner

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Care to explain in what manner the WCML was Richard Branson's fault?

Railtrack and Virgin stitched up the WCML with their deal - an undeliverable contract - a £1Bn project eventually came out at nearly £9Bn with huge disruption to other users and the Government footed the bill basically.

140mph etc was never delivered. (as we all know)
 

furnessvale

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I think this hypothetical question doesn't help to clarify the issue, because such a vote should never be possible in a country in which an individual's liberty can be taken away only if he/she has been found guilty of a crime, and which doesn't have the death penalty. Perhaps a more realistic question would be what people would do if there had been a referendum to reinstate the death penalty, and outcome was to do that. I think those who thought that was wrong would have every right to continue to say so.

My view is that because people have a right to their opinion and to express it in a lawful way, anyone who wanted to stay in the EU is entitled to say so. I have no doubt that the Leavers would have continued to campaign to leave, if the vote had gone the other way. After there's been a General Election, and one political party has formed a government, no-one suggests that those who voted for another party must keep quiet and accept everything the new government proposes.

The problem after the Brexit vote is that it's a new kind of situation. How far should Remainers go? At present the government is rightly working towards implementing the wish of the majority. It IS conceivable that as the implications are more widely appreciated, public opinion may shift. If it became clear that another referendum would produce a different outcome, I think it would be perverse to claim that 23 June 2016 decided the matter for all time.

We do have to make up our minds, because this isn't a matter where we can alternate between Yes and No every few years. That may be a very difficult idea to grasp at the time people are casting a vote.

Of course, the real question is how much notice the winning side takes of the protests of the losing side, no matter which one won.

It is incumbent on people from both sides of the argument to search their souls for the answer they would give as a winner.
 

rebmcr

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such a vote should never be possible in a country in which an individual's liberty can be taken away only if he/she has been found guilty of a crime

Such as my liberty to live and work in the EU?
 
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