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Fair treatment of passengers?

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Roylang

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He could argue it - I probably wouldn't accept it, though. A BoJ on a through ticket is one thing. Leaving at a station where your ticket terminates and is your "home" station is your journey coming to an end, IMHO.

Would that not be a hard one for you to prove? The season ticket may be issued at BRI and be BRI-BTH, but that does not prove that BRI is "home", perhaps he buys at lunchtime in BRI and BTH-BRI is no difference to BRI-BTH from a use perspective?

Given the NRCoC allow split tickets for a journey, and allows a break of journey, strictly I can see no restriction on breaking a journey at any point, even if the break is at one of the split points. Also, he has a vaid ticket all the way to BTH, but can stop short at BRI in the NRCoC.

Roy
 
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soil

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Now, another question to argue over, if he had been going to Bath, even though he was in possession of a season ticket, I would say that split would NOT have been valid, as his journey was not to Bri, so his season ticket would have been irrelevant.

"You may start, or break and resume, a journey (in either direction in the case of a return ticket) at any intermediate station, as long as the ticket you hold is valid for the trains you want to use. You may also end your journey (in either direction in the case of a return ticket) before the destination shown on the ticket"

"You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they cover the entire journey and one of the tickets is a Season Ticket"

So, the passenger is definitely entitled to break the journey

London - Bristol

at Bath using the tickets

London - Didcot (SDS)
Didcot - Bath (SDS)
Bath - Bristol (Season)

The difference between breaking and ending a journey is a difficult one, but since you can quite reasonably 'break' a journey (let's say the passenger lives in Bristol and is stopping off at Bath for a few hours before going home), determining whether you can be said to end a journey early without having passed through the first station on the ticket seems to me a pointless task.
 

Solent&Wessex

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To give some examples:

I often have to travel via Eurostar and use London International (CIV) tickets from various stations. On one occasion I was using a Winchester -> London(CIV) ticket (route any permitted) to travel Winchester->Reading->Paddington->St.Pancras (on the underground). I was challenged by the Cross Country on-board staff who insisted that as there was a direct service Winchester->Waterloo I had to take that train. I explained that my route was valid and that having a bad back dragging a suitcase by my chosen route was far easier than via Waterloo. I was "let off" but told to use the correct route in future. It was even suggested that as I was getting such a good deal on the ticket, I could not use other routes :roll:

At my TOC we have had no briefing, documents, training or anything else relating to a) CIV tickets, b) the Routeing Guide. Occasional general guidance is given, but not enough to be of much use aside from the direct train / direct route principal. This might well be an expected response from someone who had only ever been told basic things about direct routes etc, and had no way of effectively finding out.

On another occasion I tried to buy (on board as no ticket facilities available at the time) St.Eth -> Camborne tickets for me and my then 2 year old son with a family railcard. I was refused as "he must be at least 5".

This I cannot understand, even if he was 5 or 2 you can buy a child ticket and I have no idea why his age should come into it

Lastly, I had an Anytime Single from Stansted Airport to Alton for a particular day which cleary displaying as valid until the next day. As a result of my flight being delayed I only made it into London itself and missed the last train down to Alton. Having spent the night in a hotel. I continued the next morning and confirmed with staff at Waterloo that I was ok. The on-board guard refused to accept my ticket and charged me for a new ticket. Even when I pointed out the validity date he said “it is the big date in the middle that counts”.

I can understand this response, at my TOC we receive no briefing, training, documentation or anything else to explain this.

Now, are any of these “exceptional” or complex issues? Not to my mind. In all three cases I was treated as if I was deliberately trying to pay less than I should or travelling without a valid ticket. I was not treated in a rude or offensive manner, however, in all these cases other members of the public on board looked at me as if I were a criminal / low life etc.

If there are staff who refuse / cannot / do not understand even basic ticketing, what hope does RJ have?

Many staff refuse to understand because they may believe what they have always been told by their TOC, and not what they are being told by a passenger.
Many staff cannot / do not understand because they have never been given proper training beyond the most basic of ticket functions.

Basic ticket training in my experience is woefully inadequate, you are often just expected to find out as you go along.
Since the demise of the paper fares manuals you have no reference material to carry around and refer to either.
At my TOC there is no access to The Manual, and since the demise of paper versions of other documents such as the NRCOC and RG, these are not available to consult either.

I was, only a few months ago, talking to a new colleague who had only been out on his own for a few weeks, who was telling me about some "angry passengers". It turned out that they were using Off Peak tickets at a Peak time, and would correctly be required to only pay an Excess Fare. sadly, during his retail training, he told me he had never been told about excess fares, except for Advance fares and that meant a new ticket again, so he just adopted the same policy.
 

Be3G

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Even when I was on my First Class ALR, getting access to the FC accommodation sometimes required me to pass an inquisition and being asked to show my ticket before I was allowed to sit down. I made a point of dressing smartly, so I wonder why this kept happening. I'd never seen other passengers treated in this manner. I worked as an on board caterer on an intercity TOC and I'd never dream of treating any passenger like that. If I saw anyone I suspected was a fare evader (and there were loads of them on certain routes where stops were close together) I'd do one of two things. I sometimes asked the guard to do a ticket inspection, if they were in the right place. If this was not practical, I would announce the catering offer, adding that everyone should leave their FC tickets on the table for inspection as I passed through.

This puts me in mind of an experience a friend and I had when we were 17. We were going on a half-term day trip to Cardiff, and we'd bagged some cheap first class Apex tickets for the ride there. The catering trolley came through offering free refreshments, but it, well, ignored us. The staff member operating the trolley wasn't curt or anything, she just kind of pretended we weren't there.

However, just after the trolley passed, the (friendly) ticket inspector came along too. Of course, he checked our tickets and found them to be perfectly valid so he had no qualms with us. He then continued on his way and, a few seconds later, popped back to ask if we were sure we didn't want anything free from the trolley. I hadn't been sure until then if we had been deliberately ignored by the trolley, but I assumed from that that we had; presumably, the guard had had a quick word with the trolley person to let her know we were legitimate travellers.

So a mixed experience: slight indignation at the prejudice shown to 17-year-old travellers in first class, but also gratitude to the guard for sensing what'd happened and making amends.
 

Flamingo

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But if his home is Bath (easily proved), it's a bit ridiculous to argue that his "continuation of journey" is his commute to work next morning.
 

Roylang

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But if his home is Bath (easily proved), it's a bit ridiculous to argue that his "continuation of journey" is his commute to work next morning.

But the word "home" does not appear in the NRCoC and I would consider that you have no grounds on which to deem my break of journey as being in violation of the conditions. I have valid tickets for a journey, in accordance with condition 19.c and I happen to break my journey at a station somewhere enroute in accordance with condition 16 that happens to be near my home. Where in the NRCoC is that not permitted?

I do understand where you are coming from and consider this a loophole, but it is not, in my opinion, an invalid set of tickets.

As for rediculous, there is lots allowed in law that is rediculous, it does not make it illegal!

Roy
 

Flamingo

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Well, as it was, I was the one pointing out to him that he was in compliance with 19.c and giving him a refund when I found out about it.

However, if he HAD exited at Bath and I was not made aware of his BTH-BRI season ticket (or he had said he was travelling to Bath), I would not consider that I had incorrectly charged him.
 
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LexyBoy

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I'm with Flamingo on this one - if the journey being made is London-Bath, then the Season doesn't come into it. In any case it's practically unenforceable if the passenger says they are travelling to Bristol but disembarks earlier - they could be disembarking at Bath to travel to Oldfield Park for example.

Fair play to Flamingo though - it shows that not all of those who don't know the rules are on the dodge!
 

Roylang

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Don't get me wrong, I think Flamingo does a fantastic job in the way that he describes and enjoy his postings. The fact that he issued a refund, at his initiative, is highly commendable.

However, tickets must be used in accordance with the NRCoC and that cuts both ways. The TOC will use them to support penalty fares / prosecutions but the passenger must also be able to use them to defend their position.

In this case, I would consider that it was obvious that the passenger was going home and were it not for the season ticket he would definately have had invalid tickets. However, with the season ticket he would only be exploiting a loophole and not actually have done anything in contravetion of the NRCoC. Therefore, I would consider any action to charge for a new ticket etc. to be unfair.

As Flamingo indicated in his orginal post on this subject, it is a bit of a grey area.

What is meant by Journey comes into it. The NRCoC seem to indicate that a Journey is not where you enter / leave station, but where you have valid tickets:

You may start, or break and resume, a journey (in either direction in the case of a return ticket) at any intermediate station, as long as the ticket you hold is valid for the trains you want to use.

Roy
 
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soil

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It's not that much of a loophole.

The customer has paid for travel from A to C. If he wants to get off at B, having paid for A to C, that's fair enough. You don't get to say 'but A to B' is more expensive, if the passenger has valid tickets for A to C.
 

pemma

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RJ has explained that the bone of contention is that a train does not need to stop at split points when one of the tickets is a season.

Indeed. In another thread someone said they have an email from TPE confirming that after consulting 2 fares specialists they can confirm that their Marsden split with season tickets will be valid for Batley-Manchester on diverted TPE services via Rochdale during the Stalybridge blockade.
 

Solent&Wessex

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Indeed. In another thread someone said they have an email from TPE confirming that after consulting 2 fares specialists they can confirm that their Marsden split with season tickets will be valid for Batley-Manchester on diverted TPE services via Rochdale during the Stalybridge blockade.

That is a different matter altogether, as the normal pattern of services is altered due to engineering works, and the RG allows for this. Normally it wouldn't be valid via the Calder Valley though.

 

hairyhandedfool

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Today, I was asked for an "open return" to Crewe for travel tomorrow, around 10am, and the passenger had a 16-25 Railcard, so naturally I had to explain that travelling before 10am was a different price to travelling after 10am (because of the £12 minimum fare). She asked me which ticket she should buy and I told her that as it was an Anytime Return she could buy it on the day (tomorrow). "No" she says, "it'll cost more tomorrow". Despite my attempts to tell her otherwise, she insisted that it would cost more and then added that if she bought a ticket on the day, she would have to travel and then buy the ticket (and further insisted she couldn't do that). I asked again where she was travelling from (knowing I would be on duty and the office would be open), to make sure I hadn't missed anything simple, and she told me that she'd be travelling from my station. I gave up at this point and she finally decided to get the ticket for travel after 10am.

You'll all be glad to know I phoned up the control office afterwards and asked them if I really am on duty, if the ticket office really is open and if I was wrong about Anytime Return tickets being available for purchase on the day of travel, I mean, the passenger could have been correct, couldn't she?:roll:

On a slightly serious note, I didn't actually phone the control office up (I hate to think what they would have said to me if I had), but this simple situation really did occur today and I think it illustrates that just because a passenger is certain about something, it does not make them right (though you could say the same about staff no matter how good the training is).

I'll never agree with staff or passengers being rude or offensive, that simply shouldn't happen, and staff should receive better training from the TOCs, but they can't simply agree with the passenger when the staff 'know' they are right, I just can't realistically see how you can make that an option.
 

BlythPower

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It sounds like she'd been brainwashed by TheTrainline into believing that tickets bought in advance are cheaper that those bought on the day of travel. Whereas, of course, advance tickets may be cheaper. Well done Trainline...
 

RJ

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I mean no offence here, but posts such as the one above are more akin to some sort of blog than a 'discussion' as one might expect to find on a forum. I would also have to say, whilst I no way condone staff being rude or abusive, that you come across on here as very slightly aloof in your manner, and if you "mirror" this in person there is always the possibility that it will influence how others behave toward you.

You're trying to psycho analyse my posts and coming up with the wrong conclusion. I've already explained why I don't feel it's necessary to expose loopholes in public and as such, my posts are best taken at face value. If I say I provided a detailed explanation of why my tickets were valid, it means that I provided a detailed explanation of why my tickets were valid.

Just because I don't provide details that identify individual members of staff or the specific stations shown on the tickets I used, it doesn't then mean that I'm "aloof" in the situations I post on here. This trick whereby people say this just to get me to post details of the anomalies has already been tried by others and time has shown that it doesn't work. Besides in this thread, I have already stated that I have used a season with two non seasons for a journey, permitted by Condition 19c and explained that guards object because the train did not stop at the stations where I split. Why is it necessary for me to go into more detail?

If you want advice on how to save money, post a thread and if it's in an area I'm familiar with, I might be in a position help out.
 
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pemma

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That is a different matter altogether, as the normal pattern of services is altered due to engineering works, and the RG allows for this. Normally it wouldn't be valid via the Calder Valley though.

TPE don't call at Marsden even when not diverted though.
 

hairyhandedfool

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TPE don't call at Marsden even when not diverted though.

I believe the split in question involves a PTE product and a season ticket, so the train would not need to call, but would normally be required to go via the split point (Marsden).
 

bnm

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If you want advice on how to save money, post a thread and if it's in an area I'm familiar with, I might be in a position help out.

And if it's the exact same set of travel circumstances and tickets that this thread started off about, you'll happily give that information publicly? I rather suspect the response would be, "You have a PM."

Can't be sharing these money saving tips too publicly can we? Big bad ATOC will come along and close the loophole won't they? But hang on, this isn't really a loophole, it's merely using Condition 19c. But we still must keep it a secret musn't we?

I'm all right Jack, eh?
 

34D

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I agree with RJ about staff attitudes.

A few years ago I made a regular journey Stevenage-Leeds. My tickets were stevenage-arlesey standard day return and arlesey-Leeds season, and my train the first or second down trains of the day.

I quickly realised that showing both tickets resulted in being told that I needed to be on the stopper, but showing just the Arlesey-Leeds ticket (whether the 7DS or the occasional SVR) was always accepted without question (even though the svr from stevenage wasn't valid until mid morning.

One that I'm sure RJ will be shocked by was that I was on the platform at Doncaster (having travelled ticketless from an unstaffed station) and asked the guard before departure whether he'll sell me a ticket to which he said yes, and I then got on and he refused to sell anything other than an anytime, though he was eventually prepared to sell a 7ds also. Few years ago now.
 

DaveNewcastle

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"You may start, or break and resume, a journey . . . . as long as the ticket you hold is valid for the trains you want to use. You may also end your journey . . . . . before the destination shown on the ticket"

"You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they cover the entire journey and one of the tickets is a Season Ticket"

The difference between breaking and ending a journey is a difficult one, . . . .
Could you help me please?

I'd like to know what definition of 'journey' you are using.

Thanks
 

soil

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'Journey' is not defined in Appendix A, Definitions, of the CoC

A dictionary definition is :

'Journey', noun, a travelling from one place to another

'John is travelling from London to Bristol.'
'John is on a journey from London to Bristol.'
'John is on a journey from London to Bristol, visiting Reading, Swindon and Bath along the way.'
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The latter part of Condition 16 may have some relevance:

"For the purposes of this Condition, you will be treated as breaking your journey if you leave a Train Company’s or Rail Service Company’s stations after you start your journey."
 

RJ

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One that I'm sure RJ will be shocked by was that I was on the platform at Doncaster (having travelled ticketless from an unstaffed station) and asked the guard before departure whether he'll sell me a ticket to which he said yes, and I then got on and he refused to sell anything other than an anytime, though he was eventually prepared to sell a 7ds also. Few years ago now.

I hate it when staff do that, lead you into a false sense of security. It's really out of order. If they intend to offer less than the full range, they should say so before letting you get on. In your case, I assume it was a tight connection and you were entitled to the full range which makes it a bit unfair.

At Leicester, I approached one TM on an HST to London with my Priv and asked if I could buy a single to London. At least he had to decency to state that I could get on if I wanted to pay a £140 Penalty Fare.
 

bb21

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There is nothing in this thread which has not been discussed before, unless new information comes to light. Therefore the thread is now locked.

If anyone wishes to discuss the legitimacy of breaking a non-stop journey which is only validated by virtual of Condition 19(c) then please open a separate topic.
 
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