Fair treatment of passengers?

[RJ]

New term, new beginnings! I travelled this morning on an express service.

A passenger at another table had boarded the wrong train. He was intending to travel to an intermediate station where the train passed through without stopping. The TM said he'd be permitted to double back to free of charge. Not a short distance either.

I held a valid combination of tickets, one of which included travel between the origin and that same station. I showed them to the TM along with my discount card and didn't say a word. The TM said "Very interesting combination of tickets, but they're not valid on this train, so it's going to be a new ticket I'm afraid." I said I didn't have any money to spend on a new ticket so he requested my details.

After the passenger had gotten off, I said the the guard that it was very unfair that he let off the other passenger who had made a mistake, but decided to penalise me for making what he thought was mistake.

The usual chain of events followed. I tried in vain to explain why my tickets were valid, heard back the usual tripe about how his 20 years of experience meant that he was above double checking the validity etc etc so I was to buy a new, undiscounted SOS. When I hold valid tickets, I refuse pay for a new one as the guards don't deserve the commission for it, so I've ended up with another UFN!

Unfair or what? The guard made up his mind before I even said anything that he was going to charge for a new ticket

 

[Urban Gateline]

I think once again there is little judgement anyone can make without knowing what tickets exactly you held. Ok fair enough you probably won't want to divulge the exact details for your own reasons.

It is possible that the Guard had more sympathy for someone who he genuinely thought had missed their stop/made a genuine mistake, whereas your tickets looked dodgy to him as if you were trying to short change the railway (and lets face it that is your intention!)

Yes the Guard should have listened to your explanation and then made the decision, I do think a UFN is rather harsh if your tickets were indeed valid (have to take your word for it on that one!)

Something tells me that you are jealous of Commission that Guards earn though!

 

[Ferret]

RJ, in very limited defence of the Guard, a genuinely confused traveller will pretty much always get let off...

I'd love to meet you in my proessional capacity while you're using these random splits cos I'm curious as hell to know exactly what you get up to, and why some Guards think they aren't valid. I appreciate why you don't want to reveal details on an open forum though!

 

[hluraven]

The difference is that the other passenger made a mistake that cost him considerably (in time) and a mistake that no-one would ever make on purpose.

If the guard believed that you had made a genuine mistake that saved you money then there is a big difference between the two situations.

 

[yorkie]

I'd love to meet you in my professional capacity while you're using these random splits cos I'm curious as hell to know exactly what you get up to, and why some Guards think they aren't valid. I appreciate why you don't want to reveal details on an open forum though!

You'd possible recognise why the tickets were valid straight away, and if you didn't, you'd listen to RJ and, being knowledgeable about the NRCoC and Routeing Guide and how restrictions work etc, you would then almost certainly agree with RJ and accept the ticket.

RJ has posted some example ticketing scenarios in the past, and with knowledge of the rules, it's not too difficult for someone inspecting the ticket to look them up and see why they're valid.

The problem is with some staff who decide something is not valid and will not look it up, and will not have it explained to them.

There are still a considerably annoying and noticeable minority of staff who will claim the Routeing Guide doesn't exist, that certain Railcards cannot be used at all before 10am, and that the through train rule doesn't exist and... I could go on. The biggest culprits seem to be FCC, EMT when it comes to troublemaking, but for general lack of knowledge you can't beat the shocking lack of training at LO.

 

[bb21]

I don't think judged by the words the guard used, he thought you made a mistake.

It was quite clear you knew exactly what you were doing, using split tickets, and were able to argue your case, rightly or wrongly, so why would the guard even remotely think that you made an innocent mistake? It would be quite clear to anyone in passing that you are not an average passenger.

I have no doubt that you combination is valid and that the guard was incorrect, however I don't believe the grounds on which you believe you were treated unfairly are valid.

 

[FenMan]

I don't think judged by the words the guard used, he thought you made a mistake.

It was quite clear you knew exactly what you were doing, using split tickets, and were able to argue your case, rightly or wrongly, so why would the guard even remotely think that you made an innocent mistake? It would be quite clear to anyone in passing that you are not an average passenger.

I have no doubt that you combination is valid and that the guard was incorrect, however I don't believe the grounds on which you believe you were treated unfairly are valid.

For the guard to be invited to check validity with his control and to refuse to do so is pretty poor. It's a quick phone call!

 

[bb21]

For the guard to be invited to check validity with his control and to refuse to do so is pretty poor. It's a quick phone call!

I am not defending the guard. That is quite clear.

I am also not convinced that the guard was invited to check validity with his control but refused to do so as this was not mentioned by the OP.

 

[island]

I am sorry if this seems like picking on you RJ, but your continued reluctance to post details of the tickets you hold means that these threads are nothing more than laments, or if I were to be less charitable, rants. We've met before and I am fully aware that you know your stuff, but this is meant to be a discussion board and we can't discuss things without any details to discuss.

 

[Monty]

I am not defending the guard. That is quite clear.

I am also not convinced that the guard was invited to check validity with his control but refused to do so as this was not mentioned by the OP.

Can't speak for the TOC in question, but as my time as an RPI we had no number to call to confirm the validity of tickets if in doubt, I am not aware of any similiar arrangement for guards either. If I was to call control and enquire about ticket validity I'd probably receive "Eh?" as a response and followed by the controller hanging up on me.

 

[GadgetMan]

For the guard to be invited to check validity with his control and to refuse to do so is pretty poor. It's a quick phone call!

Control do not have anything to do with Retail and Tickets etc. They are there to ensure efficient running of trains and passenger movements and dealing with disruption.

I'm a guard and there is no one we can ring to ascertain whether a complicated combination of tickets are valid or not. On the day we either accept the ticket(s) as valid or withdraw them and submit a TIR if we believe they are not, and then let the revenue department investigate it.

 

[Ferret]

I have a friend I can ring in a ticket office if I'm stuck - I can of course ring control for advice, but how accurate that advice is depends on who is on!

But if as a Guard you aren't sure, just withdraw for a TIR and leave it at that. Issuing UFNs is NOT the way to go.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There are still a considerably annoying and noticeable minority of staff who will claim the Routeing Guide doesn't exist, that certain Railcards cannot be used at all before 10am, and that the through train rule doesn't exist and... I could go on. The biggest culprits seem to be FCC, EMT when it comes to troublemaking, but for general lack of knowledge you can't beat the shocking lack of training at LO.

I came across a customer yesterday who had an invalid CDR for the train she was on. She complained that it was bad enough that she couldn't use her railcard...at which point I stopped her midflow and asked who'd told her she couldn't use her railcard before 10am because they were wrong! The CDR was 11.80, the SDR somewhere in the region of 15.00, and of course, the Y-P SDR would be 12.00! She genuinely didn't know about the Y-P minimum fare, and clearly neither did the ticket office staff at (enter large mainline station here!). FFS!

 

[bb21]

I came across a customer yesterday who had an invalid CDR for the train she was on. She complained that it was bad enough that she couldn't use her railcard...at which point I stopped her midflow and asked who'd told her she couldn't use her railcard before 10am because they were wrong! The CDR was 11.80, the SDR somewhere in the region of 15.00, and of course, the Y-P SDR would be 12.00! She genuinely didn't know about the Y-P minimum fare, and clearly neither did the ticket office staff at (enter large mainline station here!). FFS!

I guess that you excessed her for 20p?

 

[sheff1]

But if as a Guard you aren't sure, just withdraw for a TIR and leave it at that.

If only all guards took this view !

Unfortuntely, it seems the ones who know the least are the ones who are SURE they know everything. Doubly sure, if they have been in the job for (insert number of choice) years

 

[bnm]

I am sorry if this seems like picking on you RJ, but your continued reluctance to post details of the tickets you hold means that these threads are nothing more than laments, or if I were to be less charitable, rants. We've met before and I am fully aware that you know your stuff, but this is meant to be a discussion board and we can't discuss things without any details to discuss.

Hear, hear.

Unfair or what?

Nope. Two entirely different situations. One where a passenger has apparently made a mistake and one where a guard has possibly made a mistake.

The guard made up his mind before I even said anything that he was going to charge for a new ticket.

Mind reader as well? How do you know he'd made up his mind before hearing your explanation? Without the guard's side of the story we have no way of knowing his thinking of the situation. Perhaps after hearing your explanation he took exception to someone telling him how to do his job - an understandable response that may happen in any profession.

This isn't the first time we've read of your exploits with on-train staff when using esoteric ticket combinations. This you say happened this morning and you've already come to RailUK to sound off before even the TOC concerned has had the right of reply to any complaint made. What do you want from these staff? To accept your word as gospel? To go out of their way to check despite this not always being possible? Or is it a case of actually delighting in tripping up staff and then telling us about it?

As for UFN or TIR. Not your call or any one else's here. That was a decision (right or wrong) for the guard to make. But had you got the TIR that may well have led to any exposed loopholes being closed a lot sooner. But we'll never know will we? These tales always miss out the ticket details so we are unable to express an opinion as to whether your combination is valid or not. Others here may well believe the tickets you held were perfectly valid, but this is a public forum with thousands of members and without all the facts it's very difficult to take your side.

 

[MikeWh]

... as if you were trying to short change the railway (and lets face it that is your intention!)

I'm not sure I can agree with that statement. "The railway" through the NRCoC define what is permitted and what is not. There are a lot of not-so-obvious things which are permitted and cost a lot less than the obvious fare. However, it is not short changing the railway when using permitted tickets.

 

[soil]

It is quite tricky to define 'short change'.

If a fare is too high, the railway will not receive any money from me at all, as I will use an alternative.

Conversely I may be willing to pay more than the published fare for a given routeing.

In the first case the railway receives no revenue. In the latter, they are underpricing themselves.

'Short-changing' doesn't come into it.

 

[Ferret]

I guess that you excessed her for 20p?

I had a bit of a discussion with her along the lines of just what she could and couldn't do with her railcard, ironed out a few misconceptions, by which time we were at destination. Others can judge whether I should've relieved her of 20p or not!

 

[bnm]

I'm not sure I can agree with that statement. "The railway" through the NRCoC define what is permitted and what is not. There are a lot of not-so-obvious things which are permitted and cost a lot less than the obvious fare. However, it is not short changing the railway when using permitted tickets.

And it is important to add that the railway is not overcharging the customer when they are not using less than obvious tickets. The cost versus value attached to a journey is entirely subjective. Those that use less than obvious tickets are saving themselves money and provided they've stuck to the NRCoC that's fine. The industry sells the through ticket (unless asked otherwise) and that is the cost they believe should be paid for the journey. There is probably a middle ground and it may well be that this is what we will see if there is an overhaul of the system.

With the stated political decision being to get the passenger to pay more of the actual cost of their journey with less taxpayer subsidy pumped into the farebox, there will likely come a point where (even allowing for greater rail industry efficiency) too much use of splits, loopholes and anomalies will be self defeating.

I exploit these loopholes myself but there is not great gnashing of teeth on my part if a particular one is closed.

 

[Flamingo]

Just to re-iterate what all the other guards on this thread (all of us work for diffrent TOC's), there is no genius at the end of a phone for us to ring about tickets. I am 100% confident that if I ring Control I may as well be calling the GasBoard (am I showing my age with a reference to a "Not The 9 O'Clock News" sketch?), and as regards referring to a routeing guide, I'd never even heard of it until I joined this forum, and would have no idea where to get one.

I would possibly issue a UFN simply because I would not know how to issue a TIR, and most of my guard colleagues would not even issue a UFN. I would be working on the principal that whoever was dealing with the appeal would be in the position to research the tickets and make an informed decision. (Actually, if confronted by some hopelessly esoteric combination of Rovers, Railcards, and return portions of unused outward tickets I would probably say "You are RJ and I claim my £10", but that's just me).

 

[pjnathanail]

(Actually, if confronted by some hopelessly esoteric combination of Rovers, Railcards, and return portions of unused outward tickets I would probably say "You are RJ and I claim my £10", but that's just me).

You can't use the return portion of a ticket before the outward can you? Although I agree in reality it is a little unenforcable!

 

[hairyhandedfool]

You can't use the return portion of a ticket before the outward can you? Although I agree in reality it is a little unenforcable!

Not quite, the outward portion is only valid with a completely unused return portion.

 

[pjnathanail]

Not quite, the return portion is only valid with a completely unused outward portion.

Oh, OK. Might you be asked to show the unused outward portion?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

You might, though I haven't seen it happen that often.

 

[blacknight]

Not quite, the return portion is only valid with a completely unused outward portion.

Think you will find that an unused outward portion is only valid if supported by the unused return portion of ticket. If you are on outward leg you would be expected to have return ticket on your person

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Think you will find that an unused outward portion is only valid if supported by the unused return portion of ticket. If you are on outward leg you would be expected to have return ticket on your person

Ah yes, I might have got that backwards. (must remember to engage the grey cells before typing when I am tired)

 

[pemma]

I think once again there is little judgement anyone can make without knowing what tickets exactly you held.

I agree. I think the fact that the exact tickets haven't been disclosed could indicate they are a combination people would question either rightly or wrongly.

as if you were trying to short change the railway (and lets face it that is your intention!)

I don't agree with that comment. As split ticketing is a valid way of paying for your journey, it's equivalent to shopping around to get the best price on a physical product that you buy.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

RJ, in very limited defence of the Guard, a genuinely confused traveller will pretty much always get let off...

From my experience that is true, although some of the tabloid reports on Virgin Trains suggest otherwise.

One day someone boarded a Buxton service at Manchester with a Chinley ticket. The guard told him it was the wrong train and asked would he like to alight at Stockport and go back, or make a 1 mile walk across New Mills to change lines. The passenger opted for the latter and the guard even gave him vague directions.

 

[SS4]

Perhaps your ticketing endeavours have earned you a spot on a sort of blacklist for added suspicion when it comes to checking tickets?

This is one of the things that's likely to happen when guards have discretion. It's an exercise for the reader to decide if they want discretion or to be consistent.

 

[RJ]

Perhaps your ticketing endeavours have earned you a spot on a sort of blacklist for added suspicion when it comes to checking tickets?

This is one of the things that's likely to happen when guards have discretion. It's an exercise for the reader to decide if they want discretion or to be consistent.

Quite the contrary - a brief went out to all retail/revenue protection staff working on that particular line stating that if I was seen using a combination of tickets, they should be accepted as valid.

 

[BestWestern]

As another Guard observing the posts here with some interest, I would firstly echo my colleague Flamingo, and others, in saying that there is no 'help I'm baffled' hotline to call, and secondly there are a number of ticket-related procedures and occurrences that many of us have little or no knowledge or working experience of using or dealing with. I have never completed a TIR, and indeed have no intention of doing so to be perfectly honest, as I much prefer to take a reasonable approach and do my best to deal with people on board rather than via reams of subsequent paperwork later on. Equally, most of us are unlikely to regularly encounter a passenger with anything more than the most basic of split tickets, about which they will have only the most basic of knowledge.

What this whole affair demonstrates more than anything however, is that the ludicrous enigma of UK rail ticketing is something which only those who choose to take an active interest in, and indeed are willing to study in their own time, can truly get a grip on. There is simply far too much for those of us who simply do it as a job to ever fully comprehend, and that problem is further compounded by the fact that our employers seem to have no desire to even begin to work together to unpick the mess, or to equip staff with the level of knowledge we require to do so ourselves.

There are far too many staff out there who know precious little simply because they cannot be bothered to learn anything more, and that is unacceptable. But, please spare a thought for those of us who do try our best but simply work in an industry which refuses to deal with this widely acknowledged problem within.