fast up, slow down...

Discussion in 'UK Railway Discussion' started by ess, 3 Nov 2011.

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  1. ess

    ess Member

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    what determines the name of these lines. is it whether it's coming towards or away from london? what do you call the centre bi directional track at somewhere like ravensthorpe? while on the subject of ravensthorpe, why are there no platforms on the wakefield lines?
     
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  3. Eagle

    Eagle Established Member

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    Down means the direction of increasing milepost numbers. So yeah, normally away from London when that applies, but not always—the Aylesbury Line off the top of my head has the numbers increasing towards London, counting from some distant northern terminus of the GCR (well, it was the London Extension after all).

    The centre bidi track at Ravensthorpe I'd imagine is called just that.
     
  4. Matt Taylor

    Matt Taylor Established Member

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    Generally the up direction is heading to London, down heads out of London.
     
  5. Eagle

    Eagle Established Member

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    If that actually applies, that is. For example on the Bristol–Derby route Derby is milepost zero (being the HQ of the Midland Railway), so down is towards Bristol.
     
  6. ess

    ess Member

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    what do the mileposts look like?
     
  7. MidnightFlyer

    MidnightFlyer Veteran Member

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    Yellow pillars of steel next to the trackside. On the Southern some are blue plates on poles, and on new lines they are given in metric too. Most mileposts are between knee and waist height.
     
  8. Eagle

    Eagle Established Member

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    Little signs (often yellow and black, but not always—the Southern Region preferred blue and white) every quarter mile at the side of the line. Some have been untouched since the 19th century, others are replaced frequently.
     
  9. Schnellzug

    Schnellzug Established Member

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    Lately Network Rail has put in big blue diamond shaped relflective ones to supplement/replace the old ones.
     
  10. driver9000

    driver9000 Established Member

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    A bi-directional line would be named Up and Down <name>
     
  11. eastwestdivide

    eastwestdivide Established Member

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    Some might also be called 'reversible', at least one of the lines E of London Bridge on the SE side was and maybe still is. From the river side of the lines: no1 down, 2 rev, 3 up, 4 down, 5 down, 6 up
     
  12. 142094

    142094 Established Member

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    I remember someone asking this before, but can't remember the correct answer. It is either there weren't any there in the first place or they were removed at some point.
     
  13. DaveNewcastle

    DaveNewcastle Established Member Fares Advisor

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    I've just had a look at the 2009 Sectional Appendix on the NR website and it appears that these lines change identity just west of Ravensthorpe.
    Between Mirfield Station and Mirfield East Jn they are: Up Slow, Up Fast and Down Fast.
    Between Mirfield East Jn and Ravensthorpe the Down Fast is referred to as Down Main, and the Up Fast is referred to as Up Main. Its also at this point that the lines two & from Healey Mills diverge away to the south and/or Wakefield.

    As for Mileposts, a very great number of them are simply missing.
     
  14. Eagle

    Eagle Established Member

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    Maintenance of them varies. The line between Leamington and Birmingham Moor St has had brand new pole-mounted steel ones (in Arial :-x) within the last couple years.
     
  15. Old Timer

    Old Timer Established Member

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    In pedant mode, there is a technical difference between a Reversible and a Bi-Directional line
     
  16. DavidBusDriver

    DavidBusDriver Member

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    To clarify, OT, is it the case that 'bi-directional' is where it may be used in both directions, whereas 'reversible' means that it often is, frequency of traffic and all such?

    Or did I get the wrong end of the stick, as I believe that to be the explanation!
     
  17. 185

    185 Established Member

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    How to remember - Napoleon went up to London.

    (But got battered.)
     
  18. Old Timer

    Old Timer Established Member

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    A Bi-Directional line is one which IS used in bith directions in normal working, thus it has no "normal" direction, if that makes sense.

    A Reversible line is one which does have a normal direction, but is signalled for reversible working with either full or reduced signalling.

    The difference is the method of working when there is a failure. Normally a Bi-Directional line will require working by Pilotman, whereas a Reversible will be used in its designated direction (Down/Up). There can be variations by Special Box Instructions, which may permit a Bi-Di to be operated in one direction only without a Pilotman.
     
  19. Railsigns

    Railsigns Established Member

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    The correct answer is that they are both the same.

    From GK/GN0802:

    "Reversible Line - Non-preferred term for a Bi-Directional Line."
     
  20. Old Timer

    Old Timer Established Member

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    We could of course go into the various technical issues about route controls and interlockings if you wish.
     
  21. Railsigns

    Railsigns Established Member

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    We could (as well as the different options for controlling the aspects of automatic signals within the bi-directionally signalled section).
     
  22. Old Timer

    Old Timer Established Member

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    In which case you should know the difference or are you reading from a Standard as opposed to using experience ?
     
  23. Railsigns

    Railsigns Established Member

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    A combination of both. It's best not to rely exclusively on one or the other.
     
  24. Old Timer

    Old Timer Established Member

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    In which case I would be interested to read your response to this chap, who has a query I am sure you will find interesting.

    Junction Indicators
     
  25. Tomnick

    Tomnick Established Member

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    The former GC's an interesting one, as the Down direction is actually the direction of decreasing mileage - the mileage is from zero at Manchester London Road, but at some point in the line's history the directions were reversed so that Up was towards London, as it is today. It's not unique -the short stretch between Nottingham East Jn and Mansfield Jn is similar, for the same reasons I suspect - but it must be pretty unusual.

    (Sorry to interrupt the discussion!)
     
  26. Railsigns

    Railsigns Established Member

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    Tomnick beat me to it.
     
  27. LNW-GW Joint

    LNW-GW Joint Veteran Member

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    As far as I can see all the remaining bits of the MS&L/GC are Up=East/Southbound.

    At some point the Midland reversed its Up-to-Derby rule for St Pancras to Derby (now down, like Derby-Barrow Hill-Leeds).
    But directions are reversed from Tapton to Dore on the Sheffield route, then reverse again through Sheffield.

    (all from Quail)
     
  28. Tomnick

    Tomnick Established Member

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    Indeed they are, as a result of the change at some point in the past. The mileage therefore decreases in the Down direction, unusually.

    The mileages on the Midland 'match' the directions, so must have been changed at the same time. I suspect if the little stretch through Nottingham was changed as a result of the closure of the through route from London via Melton (the mileage through Nottingham station is still via this former route). Finally, it looks like Up and Down might have been swapped in error in Quail - it looks a little odd!
     
  29. Old Timer

    Old Timer Established Member

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    The reversal came in 1876 when the London Extension to St Pancras was opened, thenceforth 0mp was at St Pancras on the main line as far as Derby London Road Jct.

    Without checking I cannot remember if the Trent to Clay Cross was continued from St Pancras at Trent North Jct or was zero'd. :oops:
     
  30. 455driver

    455driver On Moderation

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    At Guildford there are 3 lines heading North-
    Up main, Up Cobham and Down Ash.
     
  31. Tomnick

    Tomnick Established Member

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    OT, the mileage via both the Erewash and Derby is measured through from St. Pancras, as most Midland routes seem to be (there's an interesting little trivia question in there somewhere - I posted in the quiz forum a couple of years ago and confused everyone!). They meet again at Clay Cross, north of which the mileage is via the Erewash (though I don't know how the recent resignalling changes this, as there's now no connection between the two routes until a little way south of Chesterfield).
     
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