Good old First Northampton

[overthewater]

stagecoach does have value for money Megariders for many long distance routes, which stagecoach would rather you buy

 

[MK Tom]

I'm not sure why Stagecoach don't have a Northamptonshire dayrider... the huge jump up to the £10.80 midlands one makes through journeys prohibitively expensive.

Anyway, don't want to bog this thread down with stuff about Stagecoach fares, we've covered all that ground before. And as I said in my last post, I made some mistakes before about Stagecoach fares which I understand better now. What is the FirstDay in Northampton now? £4.10 I think against Stagecoach's £3.50.

 

[overthewater]

I'm not sure why Stagecoach don't have a Northamptonshire dayrider... the huge jump up to the £10.80 midlands one makes through journeys prohibitively expensive.

Anyway, don't want to bog this thread down with stuff about Stagecoach fares, we've covered all that ground before. And as I said in my last post, I made some mistakes before about Stagecoach fares which I understand better now. What is the FirstDay in Northampton now? £4.10 I think against Stagecoach's £3.50.

Three types:

FirstDay: Adult £4.00

Stagecoach £3.60

Buzz card Day Ticket: £4.20

Is that Buzz allowed on Uno buses?

 

[MK Tom]

Oh yes, when did the Stagecoach one go up? I could've sworn it was 3.50.

I will commend First on their French-style ''10 journey ticket''. That's very useful.

Buzz is valid on SC, First, Uno, Country Lion, Meridian and Z&S.

Northampton Plusbus is just valid on the first three, and costs £3 or £2 with a railcard. Obviously you have to be buying train travel too though.

Uno have their own day ticket as well, as do Meridian and Z&S strictly speaking but they obviously only get you one route. Well you can go to MK and around it on the Z&S one but that's besides the point.

I love how all the First literature still refers to the University as ''University College Northampton'' EIGHT YEARS after it got full uni status and changed its name.

Also I hadn't realised First offered a special day ticket only valid on the 2 and 29/30. I'm guessing if that still exists it's just the 2 now!

 

[A0wen]

As I've said several times, MK Metro was owned by Julian Peddle, who also owns Centrebus.

Not in 1993 he didn't - not least because MK Metro didn't exist then :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MK_Metro

First's advertising is poor next to Stagecoach.

I'm not sure I see Stagecoach "advertising" as such, beyond the branding of a number of vehicles with route numbers and destinations - which is a bit of a double edged sword since it can cause confusion when the vehicles are assigned to other routes.

They haven't done leaflets for the new timetables.

Given what's currently happening, that may be intentional as there probably seemed little point. Previously they have though. Equally, I suspect there is less demand for the paper leaflets and timetables than there was as people use the internet more for such information.

The website is a clunkly copy and paste affair.

I don't agree that it's clunky - it's fairly basic but works and is easy to find the information on - if anything it's slightly better on a tablet / phone than Stagecoach's which has too many infernal 'drop downs' which are a real pain on portable devices.

Their attempts at route branding and innovation consistently failed.

A better question would be why did it fail - were they bad ideas or good ideas badly executed ? Whether they really failed can only be assessed if you've seen the financial results of them - which I'm guessing you haven't.......

They a vehicle in a livery that's since been replaced twice.

So what - your average passenger probably doesn't notice. It's still clearly identifiable as a First Northampton bus in the same basic colours.

They don't answer any comments through their social networking sites which Arriva, Stagecoach and GoAhead all do in my experience.

I'll concede this is poor. Any company which chooses to use social media should use it properly.

One of their vehicles still proudly advertises for new drivers.

Again, so what? If the vehicle's about to be redeployed it will probably be repainted and given new adverts. If it's about to be withdrawn then it doesn't matter.

That'd certainly be a short career.

Only in Northampton - First have opportunities elsewhere.

Half the time their destination blinds aren't even set correctly.
The drivers by and large are friendly and professional, but that has very little to do with First's management.

Last time I checked it was the driver's responsibility to ensure the destination blinds were correctly set - so it's hardly "all the managements fault" as you'd like to claim.

Stagecoach overcharge badly on long distance fares but are pretty good on urban ones. I've never been inconsistent on that and i find your personal and abrasive attitude insulting and objectionable. I did make a mistake a year or so ago about fares in Rugby as I didn't understand the distance calcuation model used there. I'm used to flat-fare Arriva and just assumed £2.10 was Rugby's default single. I made the same mistake with Stagecoach's urban fares in Milton Keynes. For that I apologise, I can't really go around editing 15 month old posts to correct for that. Wouldn't be very honest of me.

I've debated the fares topic with you many times before - I don't intend to again.

First bowed to Stagecoach by never copying them. They just gave up routes, making no effort to lower fares, improve vehicles or counter-advertise (after 2005 and the 50P, 4U and all that).

As I've pointed out, if First is operating on lower margins or had fewer resources (vehicles, drivers) available to it, then it reduced its options for competing. Sometimes it is better to focus on less rather than spread too thinly.

Yes fuel costs have gone up, we all know that stuff. But nobody else is going around closing depots.

Again, if First's operating margins are lower, then the impact of fuel costs and loss of farebox revenue due to passes will hit them harder. In terms of depot closures, that's not true - Stagecoach closed Biggleswade depot, Arriva closed Hitchin, Centrebus closed Harlow. None of those have been replaced. You've also had other operators selling up and leaving certain areas e.g. Blazefield sold Sovereign to Arriva. Sovereign's St Albans operations were sold firstly to Centrebus then UNO. Julian Peddle sold MK Metro to Arriva. It's not just First who have sold or closed operations.

Each 'loss making' route First surrenders ends up being a profitable, successful one for Stagecoach. They run appropriate vehicles and frequencies and promote effectively.

Time will tell if they are successful. Equally unless you've got the financial information you don't know whether or not they're successful.

Again, OAP passes affect all operators. First are using the same recycled arguments every operator uses when they put fares up.

I've addressed the OAP passes above.

They're all perfectly valid but they don't excuse their actions in Northampton over the last eight years.

Sorry - what do you mean by "excuse their actions"? They way you're talking it sounds like you expect First to somehow apologise for what's happened.

The simple fact is, First tried to run a commercial bus service in Northampton and have failed - end of. I don't believe First have set out to drive the operations into the ground - they're a commercial company, they need to make a profit. They've tried various strategies which haven't worked out, so they're calling it a day.

The passengers are no worse off, because Stagecoach and others will step in and run alternatives. So all the passenger sees is a different colour bus turning up - they really don't care.

By all means 'call me out' on any factual errors, I welcome being corrected where appropriate. Your attitude in that post however was entirely out of order.

I have called you out on a number of factual errors. The problem I have is that you seem to have no concept or understanding of how a commercial company operates - and that's exactly what First and Stagecoach are. In commercial life you have some successes you have some failures. That's what's happened here, something has failed, but you seem to think that First have deliberately run down the operations and that it's a huge loss, when nothing could be further from the truth.

 

[MK Tom]

Hadn't realised we were talking that far back with MK. At that point it was still Citybus and Bucks Roadcar. Peddle bought it after Stagecoach were ordered to dispose of it. I think 1997-99 time, correct me there if I'm wrong.

I will gladly admit Stagecoach suck at putting the right vehicles on the right routes. But they do make a lot of effort with route branding, signage at stops (which in Northants seems to be the operators' own responsibility looking at MK Metro timetables still in place on the 33 route) and customer service facilities at Greyfriars. Lots of posters and the buses are filled with adverts for tickets, routes and even Megabus connections.

First's leaflets were always poor though. I've got them all here from before the recent changes. 'At frequent intervals' gives you no idea when it will actually come for much of the day and largely covers for their failure to run on time. You'll have seen how buses on the 4/4A bunch up, often coming along three at a time. Granted that's often to do with traffic but again Stagecoach seem better at this. In the interests of fairness, First are better than Arriva in that regard.

I'll grant you the Stagecoach website is a nightmare, finding timetables often just doesn't work because they won't just list them. As for First, simplicity for phones is applaudable, but a lot of the site is copied verbatim from their other operations and the bare minimum of information is given. As for vehicle liveries it just shows an unwillingness to invest to the public. They won't see it and think ''that's an old livery!!'' but they will spot the pealing paintwork, visible yellow of the even older livery underneath and rusting metalwork. Vehicle in question by the way, I've attached a picture below.

Sorry I was unclear, I meant the point about drivers being friendly and professional to offset the thing about blinds. Certain vehicles don't actually seem to have the right blinds fitted. I've seen many interesting variations like '12 Acre Lane', '10 Kingsthorpe' and a lot of buses going to yellow rectangle.

Of course I fully understand that these are for-profit operations. But they are also service providers and their decisions affect services people rely upon. I've had more than enough experience of those two things clashing with Arriva in MK. But I strongly believe from everything I've seen and read that the same operation in the hands of another operator would not be in the situation it's in now, or even in the one it was in several years ago.

 

[A0wen]

Hadn't realised we were talking that far back with MK. At that point it was still Citybus and Bucks Roadcar. Peddle bought it after Stagecoach were ordered to dispose of it. I think 1997-99 time, correct me there if I'm wrong.

1993 came about off the back of RobertClark125's post where he pointed out that's when GRT took over Northampton Transport. You're right, MK Metro didn't exist back then. But 1993 is when NT was up for sale and others could have bought it.

I will gladly admit Stagecoach suck at putting the right vehicles on the right routes. But they do make a lot of effort with route branding, signage at stops (which in Northants seems to be the operators' own responsibility looking at MK Metro timetables still in place on the 33 route) and customer service facilities at Greyfriars. Lots of posters and the buses are filled with adverts for tickets, routes and even Megabus connections.

I think you're being too harsh on Stagecoach on vehicle allocation. The risk of 'branding' a vehicle for a route is that the vehicle may end up having to do something else, which can cause confusion for passengers. Generally I think SC do a pretty good job on that front, but there are times when it causes a problem.

First's leaflets were always poor though. I've got them all here from before the recent changes. 'At frequent intervals' gives you no idea when it will actually come for much of the day and largely covers for their failure to run on time. You'll have seen how buses on the 4/4A bunch up, often coming along three at a time. Granted that's often to do with traffic but again Stagecoach seem better at this. In the interests of fairness, First are better than Arriva in that regard.

When you're running a 10 min or less frequency, I think it's reasonable to put 'at frequent intervals' rather than try to timetable every journey. Clearly if the frequency is every 30 or 60 minutes, that's different.

I'll grant you the Stagecoach website is a nightmare, finding timetables often just doesn't work because they won't just list them. As for First, simplicity for phones is applaudable, but a lot of the site is copied verbatim from their other operations and the bare minimum of information is given.

That it's simple to use and more importantly is simple to use on a mobile device is all that matters. That's what the website needs to do. That they've kept it simple by using the same basic template across all operations makes complete sense - that way a customer who uses a First Bus in Bath and Bristol gets the same web experience as one in Dorset - it's very sensible not to allow each local area to develop a slightly different web experience, particularly if there are customers who may use both areas.

As for vehicle liveries it just shows an unwillingness to invest to the public. They won't see it and think ''that's an old livery!!'' but they will spot the pealing paintwork, visible yellow of the even older livery underneath and rusting metalwork. Vehicle in question by the way, I've attached a picture below.

I think you're over-estimating what the average passenger actually notices. They notice if a vehicle is filthy on the outside and you can't see out the windows. They notice if it's filthy inside with fast-food wrappers and other rubbish. They notice if it's late.

Sorry I was unclear, I meant the point about drivers being friendly and professional to offset the thing about blinds. Certain vehicles don't actually seem to have the right blinds fitted. I've seen many interesting variations like '12 Acre Lane', '10 Kingsthorpe' and a lot of buses going to yellow rectangle.

Back in NBC days there were no shortage of operators who regularly ran routes to 'Service' - it's always been a problem.

Of course I fully understand that these are for-profit operations. But they are also service providers and their decisions affect services people rely upon.

Which would be true IF the withdrawl of First from Northampton were to leave the town with an inferior service or some areas without a service, but that's not going to happen. Stagecoach will step in on some routes, others, probably UNO, Country Lion or Meridian on others.

I've had more than enough experience of those two things clashing with Arriva in MK. But I strongly believe from everything I've seen and read that the same operation in the hands of another operator would not be in the situation it's in now, or even in the one it was in several years ago.

I wouldn't be too sure. I suspect Northampton Transport came with some pretty high overheads - far more than United Counties' operations in the area did. Because it was a 'one town, one depot' operation the opportunities for economies of scale either through working with neighbouring operations or growing the operations organically was quite limited. First had just that problem - the next closest operation is Leicester, but the opportunities to 'share' costs either of vehicle maintenance, route operation or vehicle procurement were quite limited. The next nearest operations are Essex, Worcestershire or Berkshire - even less opportunity to 'share' costs.

It *might* have turned out differently if somebody else had bought it but it's difficult to see who. If Arriva had bought it they may have been able to work with some of their other areas which are slightly closer to Northampton than First have, but it's not much. Julian Peddle struggled with MK Metro, ultimately giving up and selling it to Arriva - I don't believe he'd have had an easier time if he'd bought NT as well. Equally if it had been bought by somebody like Dunn Line (the fate which befell Semarks and Buffalo) then it would have disappeared even more quickly.

 

[MK Tom]

Stagecoach used to be pretty good for route allocation and to be fair to them the X4 is ALWAYS a Gold bus in my experience. But for instance on Monday there were 1-branded vehicles on the 7 and 9-branded vehicles on the 1. I can't claim to understand the ins and outs of vehicle allocation but that seems fairly avoidable. Arriva are worse for it though. First I have insufficient experience of; I just know how their colour coding attempt failed in Northampton.

Yeah you're broadly right about websites. The First Northampton one gives a strong impression of emptiness though. Arriva have the best site of the three big operators in my opinion. Timetables and maps are clearly listed, the site's fairly simple. The only trip is having to switch regions.

I think if passengers see a scanky vehicle they notice, if only subconsciously perhaps.

It's leaving passengers with less frequent services on many routes and some routes without half the service they had (Gladstone Road's southern end only has the 31, a big chunk of the 4 will only have the 21). I will say though that Stagecoach are right to reduce frequencies in places. That's what I mean about the financial side... yes I don't have First's finances to hand, but Stagecoach having a half-hourly 10 instead of First's 20-minute 28 will make that service more profitable because it fits the passenger loadings. Same with the 12 to Kings Heath being 15 minutes instead of 10. It's business sense not to serve one housing estate with a 6 per hour service with large, heavy vehicles when the loadings don't justify it. And First wonder why the routes don't pay for them, when you combine that over-provision with the higher fares than Stagecoach charge. Sometimes lower fares will attract enough extra custom to improve profits. Not always of course, but Meridian's share of the Kings Heath market goes to show how people gravitate to the cheaper operator. Their loadings have shot up recently.

Arriva in 1993 was a very different animal - in fact I'm fairly sure they didn't exist at all. I can picture it passing to private ownership then and then onto Arriva or similar later. But at the end of the day it could just bear down to Northampton not having the economic strength to sustain two operators. We'll see if that's so or not as the Uno/Stagecoach era gets truly underway.

 

[overthewater]

Arriva in 1993 was a very different animal - in fact I'm fairly sure they didn't exist at all. I can picture it passing to private ownership then and then onto Arriva or similar later. But at the end of the day it could just bear down to Northampton not having the economic strength to sustain two operators. We'll see if that's so or not as the Uno/Stagecoach era gets truly underway.

im sure that was a merger between Cowie and British bus group? 1995?

 

[MK Tom]

Sounds about right yeah.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

im sure that was a merger between Cowie and British bus group? 1995?

Not really. Cowie bought British Bus who were grossly under capitalised - this occurred in 1996 with the Arriva identity arriving late in the following year
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Stagecoach used to be pretty good for route allocation and to be fair to them the X4 is ALWAYS a Gold bus in my experience. But for instance on Monday there were 1-branded vehicles on the 7 and 9-branded vehicles on the 1. I can't claim to understand the ins and outs of vehicle allocation but that seems fairly avoidable. Arriva are worse for it though. First I have insufficient experience of; I just know how their colour coding attempt failed in Northampton.

Yeah you're broadly right about websites. The First Northampton one gives a strong impression of emptiness though. Arriva have the best site of the three big operators in my opinion. Timetables and maps are clearly listed, the site's fairly simple. The only trip is having to switch regions.

Arriva in 1993 was a very different animal - in fact I'm fairly sure they didn't exist at all. I can picture it passing to private ownership then and then onto Arriva or similar later. But at the end of the day it could just bear down to Northampton not having the economic strength to sustain two operators. We'll see if that's so or not as the Uno/Stagecoach era gets truly underway.

First is the best of the big 3 websites. Arriva is ok-ish whilst Stagecoach used to have a decent one but now it's confusing to navigate.

As for Arriva in 1993 (!), British Bus wasn't even the owner of LDT (owner of Luton and District) then. In fact, LDT could've bought Northampton but probably didn't have the cash after buying London Country NW.

 

[DunsBus]

Not really. Cowie bought British Bus who were grossly under capitalised - this occurred in 1996 with the Arriva identity arriving late in the following year
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


First is the best of the big 3 websites. Arriva is ok-ish whilst Stagecoach used to have a decent one but now it's confusing to navigate.

As for Arriva in 1993 (!), British Bus wasn't even the owner of LDT (owner of Luton and District) then. In fact, LDT could've bought Northampton but probably didn't have the cash after buying London Country NW.

I seem to remember that around the time British Bus was bought by Cowie it emerged that several of the British Bus directors had been very naughty boys, obtaining money by means of bungs to the Bank of Boston. The directors concerned later went to prison for their troubles.

This went some way to explaining why British Bus always seemed to be endlessly restructuring its operations. I was never a fan of them as they had a habit of asset-stripping; when they acquired Edinburgh Transport in 1994, for instance, the fleet which consisted of six elderly Nationals, two fairly recent Optare Deltas and several Merc midibuses was cleared out with the Deltas going to Crosville Cymru, the minibuses sent south and the Nationals withdrawn. In their place came a motley collection of Leopards, Seddons and Nationals which were in some cases much older than the vehicles they were replacing, with no effort made to paint them in Edinburgh Transport livery either. In the space of just a few months the company was run into the ground and sold to GRT, minus the vehicles, at the end of that year.

It had been suggested at the time that British Bus bought Edinburgh Transport with a view to buying SMT, which in the event was bought by GRT. If SMT had been bought by British Bus I somehow doubt it would have lasted long given what they did to Edinburgh Transport in the short time that they had it.

 

[Surreyman]

I wonder if the whole sorry affair will be used as a textbook case in management schools in the future, an example of 'How not to run a business'.
Will students be asked to identify who was to blame as per Alan Sugar?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I seem to remember that around the time British Bus was bought by Cowie it emerged that several of the British Bus directors had been very naughty boys, obtaining money by means of bungs to the Bank of Boston. The directors concerned later went to prison for their troubles.

This went some way to explaining why British Bus always seemed to be endlessly restructuring its operations. I was never a fan of them as they had a habit of asset-stripping; when they acquired Edinburgh Transport in 1994, for instance, the fleet which consisted of six elderly Nationals, two fairly recent Optare Deltas and several Merc midibuses was cleared out with the Deltas going to Crosville Cymru, the minibuses sent south and the Nationals withdrawn. In their place came a motley collection of Leopards, Seddons and Nationals which were in some cases much older than the vehicles they were replacing, with no effort made to paint them in Edinburgh Transport livery either. In the space of just a few months the company was run into the ground and sold to GRT, minus the vehicles, at the end of that year.

It had been suggested at the time that British Bus bought Edinburgh Transport with a view to buying SMT, which in the event was bought by GRT. If SMT had been bought by British Bus I somehow doubt it would have lasted long given what they did to Edinburgh Transport in the short time that they had it.

The famous Dawson Williams!! He went down as did the banker he was bribing. Note that BB's original form was Drawlane who also tried to circumvent the rules on NBC privatisation (max 4 firms you could buy) by using Drawlane and another firm (Endless Holdings) - very naughty. Think EH were the preferred bidder for both United and Lincs Road Car.

Don't know if I agree with you on the future of SMT if BB had have bought it. After all, it didn't work out too well under GRT/First, whilst the BB firms seem to still be with us under Arriva (though the long term future of British Bus was perhaps dubious). The running down of Edinburgh Transport was probably because it was too small and restricted to develop and was better to sell up, or possibly just politics!

The history of how Arriva and First were created is a very complicated one, often with Julian Peddle seemingly in the middle of the Arriva story!! Who can say what could've happened. What is the truth is that Stagecoach wanted Northampton in the early 1990s, and have pursued a very smart policy to squeeze the life out of the First operation

Also, didn't the Deltas leave for Stevensons at Burton, and then ended up with Arriva North East at Richmond, Durham then Stockton?

 

[DunsBus]

The famous Dawson Williams!! He went down as did the banker he was bribing. Note that BB's original form was Drawlane who also tried to circumvent the rules on NBC privatisation (max 4 firms you could buy) by using Drawlane and another firm (Endless Holdings) - very naughty. Think EH were the preferred bidder for both United and Lincs Road Car.

Don't know if I agree with you on the future of SMT if BB had have bought it. After all, it didn't work out too well under GRT/First, whilst the BB firms seem to still be with us under Arriva (though the long term future of British Bus was perhaps dubious). The running down of Edinburgh Transport was probably because it was too small and restricted to develop and was better to sell up, or possibly just politics!

The history of how Arriva and First were created is a very complicated one, often with Julian Peddle seemingly in the middle of the Arriva story!! Who can say what could've happened. What is the truth is that Stagecoach wanted Northampton in the early 1990s, and have pursued a very smart policy to squeeze the life out of the First operation

Also, didn't the Deltas leave for Stevensons at Burton, and then ended up with Arriva North East at Richmond, Durham then Stockton?

I think you're right about the Deltas. Now that you've jogged my memory the Deltas did head south after Edinburgh Transport was bought by BB. They actually got ET by default as Stevenon's had a stake in the company, so when Stevenson's were bought out by BB it meant they got ET as well.
As you say SMT didn't have much of a future after it was bought by GRT/First as within 18 months of the purchase it had gone, split between Lowland and Midland although both companies initially retained the SMT name and livery for their Edinburgh area operations.

There may well have been some politics involved too as I believe GRT had plans to upgrade and develop the SMT City Sprinter network with a fleet of Dennis Darts, only to be thwarted by both Lothian and the local council who both made it clear they would not entertain the idea. Instead, the City Sprinter network was scaled back with Lothian pulling out of West Lothian and South Queesnferry; presumably BB got wind of this and decided to sell the ET operations to GRT, who quickly absorbed it into their Lothian Transit operation which had come to GRT with Lowland. Not long after that GRT withdrew its town services in Berwick, leaving those to BB's Northumbria subsidiary.

Certainly BB had a habit of milking its smaller companies dry. Colchester's Olympians and Lynxes, for example, were sent elsewhere when they were taken over with their place at Colchester being taken by elderly Atlanteans and Nationals. It wasn't until Maidstone and District joined the BB fold that the tide turned and new buses were the order of the day.

I'm not entirely surprised to hear that BB, as Drawlane, tried to get round the NBC privatisation rules. Looking back now you get the impression that they were only in it for the money by fair means or foul, and it was the latter which brought down Dawson Williams and brought about the sale of the group to Cowie.

(Endless Holdings, incidentally, took its name from the name of the street in Salisbury where it was based.)

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I think you're right about the Deltas. Now that you've jogged my memory the Deltas did head south after Edinburgh Transport was bought by BB. They actually got ET by default as Stevenon's had a stake in the company, so when Stevenson's were bought out by BB it meant they got ET as well.
As you say SMT didn't have much of a future after it was bought by GRT/First as within 18 months of the purchase it had gone, split between Lowland and Midland although both companies initially retained the SMT name and livery for their Edinburgh area operations.

There may well have been some politics involved too as I believe GRT had plans to upgrade and develop the SMT City Sprinter network with a fleet of Dennis Darts, only to be thwarted by both Lothian and the local council who both made it clear they would not entertain the idea. Instead, the City Sprinter network was scaled back with Lothian pulling out of West Lothian and South Queesnferry; presumably BB got wind of this and decided to sell the ET operations to GRT, who quickly absorbed it into their Lothian Transit operation which had come to GRT with Lowland. Not long after that GRT withdrew its town services in Berwick, leaving those to BB's Northumbria subsidiary.

Certainly BB had a habit of milking its smaller companies dry. Colchester's Olympians and Lynxes, for example, were sent elsewhere when they were taken over with their place at Colchester being taken by elderly Atlanteans and Nationals. It wasn't until Maidstone and District joined the BB fold that the tide turned and new buses were the order of the day.

I'm not entirely surprised to hear that BB, as Drawlane, tried to get round the NBC privatisation rules. Looking back now you get the impression that they were only in it for the money by fair means or foul, and it was the latter which brought down Dawson Williams and brought about the sale of the group to Cowie.

(Endless Holdings, incidentally, took its name from the name of the street in Salisbury where it was based.)

Actually, think I have a slight correction. Thinking on it, the Deltas went to Stevensons at MACCLESFIELD, I think. They were then swapped for a couple of Volvo engined Tigers that United/ANE had.

Among the many problems at British Bus was that they were spending their money buying up businesses but didn't really have the capital to do it and/or invest in fleet replacement. Hence why modern kit was nicked from one place to another.

I had heard the same connection between the ET business and the end of the Berwick bus war - don't know how much truth there was but it does look kinda convenient!! The early 1990s was a very intriguing time with the consolidation of the industry.

I knew about Endless Street/Endless Holdings - the irony being that it's the street onto which Salisbury bus station exits though no Drawlane/BB vehicle operated into Salisbury. That was until they acquired a small Dorset independent via London & Country (Oakridge Travel or something similar) that won a hatful of tenders and then royally cocked them up - a much worse episode than the Damory/GSC operation of a couple of years ago!!

 

[DunsBus]

Actually, think I have a slight correction. Thinking on it, the Deltas went to Stevensons at MACCLESFIELD, I think. They were then swapped for a couple of Volvo engined Tigers that United/ANE had.

Among the many problems at British Bus was that they were spending their money buying up businesses but didn't really have the capital to do it and/or invest in fleet replacement. Hence why modern kit was nicked from one place to another.

I had heard the same connection between the ET business and the end of the Berwick bus war - don't know how much truth there was but it does look kinda convenient!! The early 1990s was a very intriguing time with the consolidation of the industry.

I knew about Endless Street/Endless Holdings - the irony being that it's the street onto which Salisbury bus station exits though no Drawlane/BB vehicle operated into Salisbury. That was until they acquired a small Dorset independent via London & Country (Oakridge Travel or something similar) that won a hatful of tenders and then royally cocked them up - a much worse episode than the Damory/GSC operation of a couple of years ago!!

The purchase of the ET business by GRT and the ending of the Berwick bus war happened within several weeks of each other. GRT integrated ET into its Lothian Transit operation in December 1994, announcing at the same time that Lowland would come off the Berwick town services at the start of February 1995, leaving those to Northumbria. Lothian Transit was a Lowland associate, having been formed in 1992 as an independent business; Lowland bought a stake in that company during 1994, following which a number of Lowland vehicles made their way to Lothian Transit's base at Newtongrange for use on local services and school contracts.

The scaling back of the Edinburgh City Sprinter network and the ending of the Berwick bus war were very much quid pro quo arrangements between GRT/Lothian and GRT/BB respectively.

One thing I remember from the Berwick episode is that Northumbria honoured Lowland season tickets for their remaining period of validity on the town services after Lowland withdrew.

 

[MK Tom]

I'm told that according to Route One magazine, talks between First management and unions have broken down and de-registrations for the 2 and 4A are likely to be next week, to take effect from mid-September.

 

[A0wen]

I'm told that according to Route One magazine, talks between First management and unions have broken down and de-registrations for the 2 and 4A are likely to be next week, to take effect from mid-September.

Well if it's true, that doesn't seem a very intelligent place for the union to have wandered into......what are they going to do, threaten to go on strike?!

The focus should have been a really simple one - what opportunities are there for redeployment - admittedly outside Northampton, but some may wish to relocate - and what are the best redundancy terms that can be obtained. Beyond that it's academic.

 

[MK Tom]

That's all I know, I haven't had time to look at the magazine myself, it may say more. I can see why handing drivers to Stagecoach won't work from Stagecoach's point of view, but there ought to be scope for some drivers at least to transfer to Leicester or somewhere.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Well if it's true, that doesn't seem a very intelligent place for the union to have wandered into......what are they going to do, threaten to go on strike?!

The focus should have been a really simple one - what opportunities are there for redeployment - admittedly outside Northampton, but some may wish to relocate - and what are the best redundancy terms that can be obtained. Beyond that it's academic.

Very true. In truth, the reality is that it's doubtful anyone will transfer. In that case, it's about redundancy. The union might be thinking that any form of disruption will scare First though you wonder about how much leverage they have.

That said, the union are probably adopting a macro view and trying to establish a precedent in case of other instances across the country/industry
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That's all I know, I haven't had time to look at the magazine myself, it may say more. I can see why handing drivers to Stagecoach won't work from Stagecoach's point of view, but there ought to be scope for some drivers at least to transfer to Leicester or somewhere.

Drivers won't transfer and have a 60 mile round trip, I assure you!

 

[A0wen]

Very true. In truth, the reality is that it's doubtful anyone will transfer. In that case, it's about redundancy. The union might be thinking that any form of disruption will scare First though you wonder about how much leverage they have.

That said, the union are probably adopting a macro view and trying to establish a precedent in case of other instances across the country/industry

Drivers won't transfer and have a 60 mile round trip, I assure you!

The fact is First should offer the option of transfer IF somebody wishes to move to another area e.g. Norfolk, Bristol or wherever else.

Strike action in an operation which is closing won't bother First at all - if anything it'll save them money. And since Northampton is the only area being consulted, no other area can go on strike because of it.

Not sure what 'precedent' the union think they'll achieve - after all other companies have closed depots and made drivers redundant even whilst being part of a bigger group - it even went on back in NBC days.......

Agree that nobody will move for a 60 mile round commute - but back to my point, it may suit some to move entirely to a different part of the country, particularly if they've got the guarantee of a job.

 

[MK Tom]

That's what I took you to mean. I said Leicester because moving house there from Northampton wouldn't mess up one's personal life too much in the way that moving to Portsmouth might.

 

[34D]

Agree that nobody will move for a 60 mile round commute - but back to my point, it may suit some to move entirely to a different part of the country, particularly if they've got the guarantee of a job.

Erm Okay my commute is 25 miles each way

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The fact is First should offer the option of transfer IF somebody wishes to move to another area e.g. Norfolk, Bristol or wherever else.

Strike action in an operation which is closing won't bother First at all - if anything it'll save them money. And since Northampton is the only area being consulted, no other area can go on strike because of it.

Not sure what 'precedent' the union think they'll achieve - after all other companies have closed depots and made drivers redundant even whilst being part of a bigger group - it even went on back in NBC days.......

Agree that nobody will move for a 60 mile round commute - but back to my point, it may suit some to move entirely to a different part of the country, particularly if they've got the guarantee of a job.

Perhaps I should be a bit clearer so apologies for that.

On a legal and moral basis, any employer SHOULD investigate all opportunities for redeployment. However, I've done this before and there is a point where drivers generally won't travel, usually no more than 10-15 miles.

If you look at the petrol costs, that's nearly £10/day (based on £1.34/litre for fuel and 40 mpg) so 5 days/wk across 47 wks = £2k on extra fuel for a driver to go to/from work.

Granted, you might have a First Northampton driver who might live at Brixworth or Mkt Harboro' but I'd venture that most live in the town. Same with moving around the country - theoretically it COULD happen but my experience is that it doesn't. What sometimes happens is that you do get a handful who transfer across whilst still looking for something else but that they're gone within a few months. This happens IF you offer a "suck it and see" option whereby you move across but if it doesn't work out, you still get your wedge!

As for the "precedent" angle, I don't know why the union (Unite??) are looking for strike action. However, is it because First are looking to pay statutory rather than some form of enhanced redundancy payment? The union may wish to establish a precedent whereby First pay an enhanced level and that this can be then applied to any other future closures? Also, remember that what happened in the past was with Bill Morris/Woodley & Simpson as union bosses; you've now got Len McCluskey there who is keen to be as hard on the imperialist pig dogs as possible!!
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Erm Okay my commute is 25 miles each way

Depends what job you do and where you live. I used to do 40 miles each way though an hour there and back got a little tiring but it was financially worth it.

If you're a driver, and you can get a job in the same town for much the same pay, then why stay with First? To make it worthwhile, it probably needs to be over £1/hr better to transfer and commute to Leicester than find a job with a firm in Northampton (and that's without the hassle of extending your working day).

 

[A0wen]

Erm Okay my commute is 25 miles each way

I was thinking of people who don't currently have that kind of commute - if First Northampton's drivers all live in or around Northampton, there's no shortage of jobs with other companies - Stagecoach, UNO and other independents, which mean they're unlikely to consider retaining their existing job and introducing a 30 mile each way commute.

Bit different for anyone who currently does it though.
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As for the "precedent" angle, I don't know why the union (Unite??) are looking for strike action. However, is it because First are looking to pay statutory rather than some form of enhanced redundancy payment? The union may wish to establish a precedent whereby First pay an enhanced level and that this can be then applied to any other future closures? Also, remember that what happened in the past was with Bill Morris/Woodley & Simpson as union bosses; you've now got Len McCluskey there who is keen to be as hard on the imperialist pig dogs as possible!!
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Even if they're trying to set a 'precedent' as there's already a statutory provision, the union wouldn't have a hope in Hades of ever arguing any other bus company closing a depot would be obliged to offer the same basic terms.

There are enough other industries where 'enhanced' redundancy packages are offered but it is always made clear this is at the employer's discretion and there is no guarantee future redundancies would be offered the same package.

Frankly the unions should be more concerned with looking after their member's interests effectively rather than trying to be clever and score cheap points - which they usually fail at. I recall a conversation a few years back with a guy I was working with who was a shift manager at a large distribution centre - this guy was a 'straight talking' Yorkshireman who was ex-forces. His comment about the Union at the site he was working was effectively 'Most of the guys only belong to the union to get them out of the **** when they've done something stupid. They really don't care about the rest of the stuff the unions go on about'.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Even if they're trying to set a 'precedent' as there's already a statutory provision, the union wouldn't have a hope in Hades of ever arguing any other bus company closing a depot would be obliged to offer the same basic terms.

There are enough other industries where 'enhanced' redundancy packages are offered but it is always made clear this is at the employer's discretion and there is no guarantee future redundancies would be offered the same package.

Frankly the unions should be more concerned with looking after their member's interests effectively rather than trying to be clever and score cheap points - which they usually fail at. I recall a conversation a few years back with a guy I was working with who was a shift manager at a large distribution centre - this guy was a 'straight talking' Yorkshireman who was ex-forces. His comment about the Union at the site he was working was effectively 'Most of the guys only belong to the union to get them out of the **** when they've done something stupid. They really don't care about the rest of the stuff the unions go on about'.

Don't disagree about the last point. I've had shop stewards trying to defend people who've been thieving AND moonlighting whilst on the sick! There's a line where they go from ensuring that due process is followed (good thing) to a blind defence of their members' transgressions (bad thing).

You're right that anything above statutory is discretionary (unless it's tied into TCEs). The union are posturing in saying "do this in Northampton and we won't stand for it". And "we're doing it with First so don't think we won't do it elsewhere". It's not a form of official precedent, but more a wider declaration of intent. :roll:

I agree that it can't be used as some form of "secondary action" but the union are just trying to flex their muscles though, as I said earlier, I really struggle to see how much leverage they have on this one. Remember in the early years of Woodley and Simpson, they seemed to target Stagecoach (strikes in Bluebird plus others, IIRC) as part of a "setting the tone" exercise. Stagecoach quietly forced them down!

 

[MK Tom]

From 15 September 2013
First 2 Northampton Town Centre - Rectory Farm - Blackthorn
(Monday to Saturday)
Service WITHDRAWN.

First 4A Northampton Town Centre - Kingsthorpe - Acre Lane
(Monday to Saturday) Service WITHDRAWN.

 

[overthewater]

From 15 September 2013
First 2 Northampton Town Centre - Rectory Farm - Blackthorn
(Monday to Saturday)
Service WITHDRAWN.

First 4A Northampton Town Centre - Kingsthorpe - Acre Lane
(Monday to Saturday) Service WITHDRAWN.

I take it Stagecoach will just start the No2 two weeks early?

 

[MK Tom]

Are there any other possibilities?