Govia get Thameslink Franchise

[A-driver]

I work for Southern but two questions I am not sure of the answer to. When the full TSGN takes over next year will I:



1. Only be driving Southern routes?

2. Will I be driving around Southern routes in trains with Thameslink or Great Northern emblazoned across them or will the units be route specific?

Technically it's a seperate franchise to southern for a couple of years but being all go ahead they may domestically start merging some aspects sooner.

What routes you work depends on where you are based. I doubt local links and metro links will sign through the core as those services will be unaffected by thameslink mainly.

 

[bicbasher]

A couple of questions?

What's going to be the brand name used for Great Northern services out of Kings Cross?

Will Southern as a sub-brand of Govia Thameslink be able to keep it's own ticket types, such as Daysaves/Downloaders and advance singles within the old franchise area?

 

[JB25]

A couple of questions?

What's going to be the brand name used for Great Northern services out of Kings Cross?

Will Southern as a sub-brand of Govia Thameslink be able to keep it's own ticket types, such as Daysaves/Downloaders and advance singles within the old franchise area?

Great Northern still is it not?

 

[ushawk]

Faster journey times from East Coastway to London will only slightly welcomed down here, as what was actually wanted was an extra train to London and the difference between Brighton and East Coastway is getting even bigger with BTN now getting 8tph with EBN only getting 2tph which isnt good enough, quite frankly.

Why couldnt one of the extra Brighton services be sent down the East Coastway line ? It certainly feels like the line is being shafted in favour of Brighton yet again.

 

[infobleep]

So does this mean more trading companies where certain tickets will not be valid but no one will ever be prosecuted, as Govia might lose.

Also will the new franchise bring improvements to the CISs. According to NRE the 16.46 Haywards Heath to Victoria is running 6 minutes late. According to the screen at Haywards Heath it's on time.

I suspect either it's on time and their is a software issue with the online departure boards or they are both wrong. I say both because the online departure boards never take into account the time it takes to attach or unattached trains. This service has two parts which join at Haywards Heath.

Anyway would be great if the new franchise could fix such issues as this.

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[cle]

Faster journey times from East Coastway to London will only slightly welcomed down here, as what was actually wanted was an extra train to London and the difference between Brighton and East Coastway is getting even bigger with BTN now getting 8tph with EBN only getting 2tph which isnt good enough, quite frankly.

Why couldnt one of the extra Brighton services be sent down the East Coastway line ? It certainly feels like the line is being shafted in favour of Brighton yet again.

Not East Coastway as such, but I did always think that some of the GatEx extensions could go to Hove instead of Brighton. But no reason why Lewes couldn't be a quick turnaround instead.

Hopefully you get your Javelins one day! But Govia will probably run those too - so not much incentive to compete and improve!

 

[WatcherZero]

To deliver a new fleet of trains by 2016, surely they must have somebody already set up, or is there an existing order where they can exercise an option?

Part of the bidding process when specifying brand new stock is to have an outline quote from one or more manufacturers to indicate cost and potential delivery dates.

 

[Class377/5]

The 2018 service pattern has been announced with some peak variants so the Bedford to Littlehampton service 'route only runs Bedford to Three Bridges and Littlehampton to West Hampstead in AM peak.

http://thameslinkprogramme.co.uk/sites/all/files/article-pdf/Thameslink Core tph update_May14_v7.pdf

Services are all 2tph

Peak
1. Bedford to Brighton
2. Bedford to Three Bridges
3. Bedford to East Grinstead
4. Bedford to Littlehampton~
5. Luton/St Albans to Sevenoaks*
6. Luton/St Albans to Maidstone East*
7. Luton/St Albans to Sutton via Mitcham*
8. Luton/St Albans to Sutton via Wimbledon*
9. Peterborough to Horsham
10. Cambridge to Brighton
11. Cambridge to Tattenham Corner
12. Welwyn Garden City to Caterham^

* Wimbledon Loop services start Luton and terminate at St Albans in AM peak and reverse in in evening peak. Sevenoaks/Maidstone East services do the opposite.
~ Only runs in peak flow between Littlehampton and Three Bridges and West Hampstead and Bedford
^ Only runs in peak flow between Welwyn Garden City and Finsbury Park

Off peak
1. Bedford to Brighton
2. Bedford to Gatwick Airport
3. Doesn’t run
4. Doesn’t run
5. Kentish Town to Sevenoaks
6. Doesn’t run
7. St Albans to Sutton via Mitcham
8. St Albans to Sutton via Wimbledon
9. Peterborough to Horsham
10. Cambridge to Brighton
11. Cambridge to Tattenham Corner
12. Doesn’t run

 

[swt_passenger]

So does this mean more trading companies where certain tickets will not be valid but no one will ever be prosecuted, as Govia might lose.

Only if they completely ignore the requirements in the ITT, which was to get rid of the separate FCC and SN fares. They are also required to simplify the concept of 'London Thameslink' fares to certain stations only being available from the north.

Both of these aspects have been discussed in this forum since the TSGN ITT was first published.

 

[infobleep]

From December 2015 the off-peak Brighton expresses will be extensions of the Gatwick Express services (2tph). I do wonder what the CEO of Gatwick Airport thinks about more Gatwick Express trains being extended to Brighton when they were calling for the return of a dedicated service. Still at least they got the return of on-board ticketing.

I've not read it all yet but does anyone know if the on board ticketing will only apply between London and Gatwick and why bring it back? Did the taking away of it not work? What about Gatwick to Brighton? Will people be able to buy tickets on board during those places on the Gatwick Express?

With the extensions to Brighton, will that mean a cut in the number of Brighton Expresses to London or is this in addition to those?

Will the current ticket types in relation to Gatwick Express still apply.? If so will all these extended Brighton Expresses require passengers to have peak tickets. At the moment it's confusing during the evening when some trains arrive at Gatwick and stations south and you can board them with off peak tickets but others, aka Gatwick Expresses ones, require peak tickets. There are no announcements saying you can board them either. They can even be stopping at similar stations.

I wonder if DfT are aware of such things or if they are even care.

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[cle]

The 2018 service pattern has been announced with some peak variants so the Bedford to Littlehampton service 'route only runs Bedford to Three Bridges and Littlehampton to West Hampstead in AM peak.

http://thameslinkprogramme.co.uk/sites/all/files/article-pdf/Thameslink Core tph update_May14_v7.pdf

Services are all 2tph

Peak
1. Bedford to Brighton
2. Bedford to Three Bridges
3. Bedford to East Grinstead
4. Bedford to Littlehampton~
5. Luton/St Albans to Sevenoaks*
6. Luton/St Albans to Maidstone East*
7. Luton/St Albans to Sutton via Mitcham*
8. Luton/St Albans to Sutton via Wimbledon*
9. Peterborough to Horsham
10. Cambridge to Brighton
11. Cambridge to Tattenham Corner
12. Welwyn Garden City to Caterham^

* Wimbledon Loop services start Luton and terminate at St Albans in AM peak and reverse in in evening peak. Sevenoaks/Maidstone East services do the opposite.
~ Only runs in peak flow between Littlehampton and Three Bridges and West Hampstead and Bedford
^ Only runs in peak flow between Welwyn Garden City and Finsbury Park

Off peak
1. Bedford to Brighton
2. Bedford to Gatwick Airport
3. Doesn’t run
4. Doesn’t run
5. Kentish Town to Sevenoaks
6. Doesn’t run
7. St Albans to Sutton via Mitcham
8. St Albans to Sutton via Wimbledon
9. Peterborough to Horsham
10. Cambridge to Brighton
11. Cambridge to Tattenham Corner
12. Doesn’t run

Thanks for summarising. The off peak timetable is pitiful - aren't we supposed to be encouraging greater use through the core and relieving tube lines with this?

Still think the Loop trains should be using the bays at Blackfriars, freeing up some more frequencies elsewhere. What'll use them now - there's a lot of capacity down to Camberwell at least...

 

[swt_passenger]

The 2018 service pattern has been announced ...

http://thameslinkprogramme.co.uk/sites/all/files/article-pdf/Thameslink Core tph update_May14_v7.pdf

Thanks for locating that info. The first thing that sticks out for me, is that for years I've been reading various service specs for the final 'Key Output' (now 2018) and the one thing that has always seemed pretty consistent wherever you read it was the 4 tph Bedford - Brighton service, and now even that has changed!

Had anyone ever thought of services terminating at Finsbury Park off-peak? Will these have to run somewhere north to of FP for a suitable turn back location?

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Thanks for summarising. The off peak timetable is pitiful - aren't we supposed to be encouraging greater use through the core and relieving tube lines with this?

Still think the Loop trains should be using the bays at Blackfriars, freeing up some more frequencies elsewhere. What'll use them now - there's a lot of capacity down to Camberwell at least...

I've been following this for a while and the timetable has always been reduced to around 16 tph through the core off-peak.

The Blackfriars bays are to be used by various Southeastern services most of the day aren't they? It was stated like this in the TSGN stakeholder briefing, from 2018:

4.134 Those destinations no longer served by Thameslink services, such as
Orpington, will be transferred back into the Southeastern network;
services will be curtailed and run only to and from Blackfriars. Additional
peak services between the Catford Loop and Blackfriars will also be
provided by Southeastern.

 

[Dumpton Park]

Class 172s from Goblin to the Uckfield line when electrics arrive?

Dp

 

[Bald Rick]

Thanks for summarising. The off peak timetable is pitiful - aren't we supposed to be encouraging greater use through the core and relieving tube lines with this?

It's 60% more than now, the same as Crossrail will be, and a train better than every 4 mins on average. Hardly pitiful.

 

[infobleep]

Only if they completely ignore the requirements in the ITT, which was to get rid of the separate FCC and SN fares. They are also required to simplify the concept of 'London Thameslink' fares to certain stations only being available from the north.

Both of these aspects have been discussed in this forum since the TSGN ITT was first published.

I'd forgotten that. Will that extend to Gatwick Express.. Currently they don't have their own ticket types, just heavier restrictions as to what tickets may board it. Currently it's only anytime tickets that may board.

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[Class377/5]

No-one noticed the reduction in off peak services between Luton and St Albans from 6tp today to 4tph?

Don't forget that we still haven't got the full info for Blackfriars as I think SE is supposed to be running 8tph into the bays including 12 cars from Medway Towns.

I assume the 2tph terminating at Gatwick Airport off peak which replace (capacity wise) the 2tph GatEx now going to Brighton? However it seems this service is the all stations via Redhill and Purley service from today's announcement.

 

[Bald Rick]

Still think the Loop trains should be using the bays at Blackfriars, freeing up some more frequencies elsewhere. What'll use them now - there's a lot of capacity down to Camberwell at least...

Unfortunately there isn't much capacity beyond Camberwell, indeed none in the peak, and a Camberwell - Blackfriars shuttle has limited appeal.

 

[petersi]

Had anyone ever thought of services terminating at Finsbury Park off-peak? Will these have to run somewhere north to of FP for a suitable turn back location?

There is a flyover at Hornsey

 

[swt_passenger]

There is a flyover at Hornsey

That's the obvious place isn't it, in the depot area. It doesn't have to be either a station or a dedicated turn back siding after all...

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

If you asked Cambridge commuters which through south London destinations they would like via the Thameslink core, they would not suggest Tattenham Corner.

 

[infobleep]

It says the Littlehampton and Bedford route is only during the peak, yet doesn't run between Three Bridges and West Hampstead. Does that mean shuttle services between Littlehampton Nd Three Bridges during the peak and is their demand for services which don't pass through London. Why advertise route and say we are not running the full route?

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[asylumxl]

If you asked Cambridge commuters which through south London destinations they would like via the Thameslink core, they would not suggest Tattenham Corner.

But they may say the stations en route. I imagine Tattenham Corner is just a good place to turn around.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

No-one noticed the reduction in off peak services between Luton and St Albans from 6tp today to 4tph?

That doesn't really make sense to me. Given that on the route to Bedford they are probably two of the most used stations.

 

[Class377/5]

But they may say the stations en route. I imagine Tattenham Corner is just a good place to turn around.

That doesn't really make sense to me. Given that on the route to Bedford they are probably two of the most used stations.

And the Airport is wanting better services with 2tph overnight from next year.

It says the Littlehampton and Bedford route is only during the peak, yet doesn't run between Three Bridges and West Hampstead. Does that mean shuttle services between Littlehampton Nd Three Bridges during the peak and is their demand for services which don't pass through London. Why advertise route and say we are not running the full route?

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I read it as peak flows so you get

AM Peak -
Littlehampton to West Hampstead northbound
Bedford to Three Bridges southbound

PM Peak -
West Hampstead to Littlehampton southbound
Three Bridges to Bedford northbound

 

[infobleep]

And the Airport is wanting better services with 2tph overnight from next year.



I read it as peak flows so you get

AM Peak -
Littlehampton to West Hampstead northbound
Bedford to Three Bridges southbound

PM Peak -
West Hampstead to Littlehampton southbound
Three Bridges to Bedford northbound

That would make more sense but it's not how I read it. Have they heard of the plain English campaign or doesn't allow apply to rail announcements.

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[swt_passenger]

If you asked Cambridge commuters which through south London destinations they would like via the Thameslink core, they would not suggest Tattenham Corner.

Isn't this likely to be a case of a 2 tph fast service from Cambridge, and a secondary 2 tph all shacks service, which might even be overtaken by the fast. So it won't really be there for people doing Cambridge - London unless they want an intermediate call on the route.

In the TSGN ITT, the suggested GN peak service had 2 tph each to/from Peterbrorough and Cambridge, and 4 tph to/from Welwyn GC 'or beyond'. This extra 2 to Cambridge seems to cover the 'or beyond' - which supports my theory that this is a '2+2' service to Cambridge, rather than 4 tph of the same calling pattern.

 

[TEW]

If you asked Cambridge commuters which through south London destinations they would like via the Thameslink core, they would not suggest Tattenham Corner.

On the current service pattern though there are 2tph from London Bridge-Tattenham Corner, and they are fast services to Purley calling at Norwood Junction, East Croydon and Purley only. That would be a pretty useful calling pattern for Thameslink services too I would have thought.

 

[swt_passenger]

It's also possibly worth reminding ourselves that the service types, i.e. fast/semi-fast/stopper don't actually have to match up north and south of the Thames, again this was something noticeable in the 2011 RUS. There were a number of routes that changed from stopper to semi-fast (or whatever) dependent on whether north or south of the core.

I guess all they really have to worry about is matching 12 and 8 car services...

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Isn't this likely to be a case of a 2 tph fast service from Cambridge, and a secondary 2 tph all shacks service, which might even be overtaken by the fast. So it won't really be there for people doing Cambridge - London unless they want an intermediate call on the route.

In the TSGN ITT, the suggested GN peak service had 2 tph each to/from Peterbrorough and Cambridge, and 4 tph to/from Welwyn GC 'or beyond'. This extra 2 to Cambridge seems to cover the 'or beyond' - which supports my theory that this is a '2+2' service to Cambridge, rather than 4 tph of the same calling pattern.

On the current service pattern though there are 2tph from London Bridge-Tattenham Corner, and they are fast services to Purley calling at Norwood Junction, East Croydon and Purley only. That would be a pretty useful calling pattern for Thameslink services too I would have thought.

I'm not lobbying for any particular destination, but Tattenham Corner (and Horsham for the Peterborough) hardly has wow factor.
It feels like an afterthought, or just a joining up of local services.
I appreciate East Croydon is key (and Gatwick), and you have to turn round somewhere, and if you run further you need more stock etc etc, but this won't set the GN world alight.
I thought the new Canal Tunnels would be carrying something more prestigious - into Kent, say, or down to Eastbourne (whose locals seem to be complaining).

 

[jopsuk]

If you asked Cambridge commuters which through south London destinations they would like via the Thameslink core, they would not suggest Tattenham Corner.

No, they'd (almost universally) say London Bridge.

 

[Old Hill Bank]

Before anyone gets carried away by this. Govia screwed up ticket office opening times on the LM franchise and are now looking to get rid of more staff. Have they reduced staffing on one franchise to buy another?