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GTR ticket office changes

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tsr

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Epsom as peak only? Sutton to close completely?

For a start I often find when I go along to Epsom at lunchtimes or at the weekends there is quite a queue. Sutton I know is even busier.


This plan is madder than a stepped on rattlesnake.

Sutton needs vastly longer hours for someone to sell tickets. At present I can tell you from experience that during the evening, which is when the opening hours are generally felt most inadequate, the majority of non-Oyster tickets at Sutton can be sorted out with an Avantix. Therefore, in this case it is appropriate to have a first-to-last roving ability to sell tickets, especially if capability of the portable machines staff use is increased.

The real problem comes when the most common fears listed above are realised, such as a stealthy phasing-out of ticket office staff, or inappropriate hours at other stations (eg. Eastbourne, as mentioned). I completely understand many of those points and I am also skeptical about the ability of any portable machine to replicate full ticket office functionality.

There are, however, a few benefits found with these proposals. At present remarkably few of Southern's current gateline staff have training for, or access to, Avantix machines. This means that passengers who turn up at the barriers after travel have no way of being sold a ticket without being let through to use the TVMs (thereby causing issues of trust, as many of these passengers just walk off without buying anyway). Having roving ticket office staff means that they can be positioned around the gateline as needed. Excess fares windows are also unreliable or struggle at many locations. Likewise, roving staff would be helpful for these occasions.

One last point: ticket office staff at many smaller stations will not have all that many places to go other than behind a window or near TVMs, so to be honest the chances of them not being visible are quite slim in some circumstances. There are some larger stations where I struggle to reconcile this point with reality, granted, but at many locations there will be a lack of incentive to wander far. In some ways this can be seen as similar to the drive by crew management to have conductors visible, which both adds value to their jobs in an ever-more-uncertain environment, and also helps the passengers. Conductors are generally visible on Southern services, where they exist at all, though they have discretion to stay in the cabs where it is safest to do so. If a ticket office has staff who are encouraged to stay visible and walk around helping at quieter times, that's all well and good. Problems would only come when ticket office functionality is not suitably replicated on the concourse, or where windows are needed to deal with a linear queue in the neatest manner, or when season tickets are paid for with high volumes of cash, etc. etc. etc.
 
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DelayRepay

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Do GTR need permission from the DFT for these change? Or could they argue that moving the staff member to the other side of the counter isn't a change to the ticket issuing facilities as specified in their agreement. What I am asking is are the franchise agreements so specific as to say there must be a ticket office open between xx:xx and yy:yy, or do they just say someone must be selling tickets between those times? In which case GTR would argue that the "host" is the ticket office and thus there is no permission required?

I also don't like the use of the term "host". If they are "hosting" me at their station, will they bring me coffee and a newspaper?
 

talldave

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Amazing that they decide to do this shortly after "upgrading" their ticketing sites to be crap, cumbersome and, judging from yesterday's twitter stress, broken.
 

greatkingrat

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Do GTR need permission from the DFT for these change? Or could they argue that moving the staff member to the other side of the counter isn't a change to the ticket issuing facilities as specified in their agreement. What I am asking is are the franchise agreements so specific as to say there must be a ticket office open between xx:xx and yy:yy, or do they just say someone must be selling tickets between those times? In which case GTR would argue that the "host" is the ticket office and thus there is no permission required?

The GTR press release says the changes require DfT approval.
 

zoneking

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Press release has been issued, staff are moving front of house! All tied in with adding ticket gates to 21 extra stations.

www.thameslinkrailway.com/about-us/news/modernising-our-stations/

I have noticed they have recently installed ticket barriers at Caterham station. The ticket office staff there are, without exception, extremely helpful and knowledgeable. They have always given me the ticket I asked for and have done a complex season ticket changeover in 7 minutes.
 

Tetchytyke

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I'm not usually in agreement with RMT, but I agree that this sounds like a bad idea to me. It looks like GTR saw how London Underground got away with this and thought they can do the same.

Never mind Underground, GoVia got away with it on their London Midland franchise so why on earth wouldn't they try it on their other franchises too?

The same as bb21, I suspect some of these proposed changes are only listed so that GoVia can give "concessions" to staff and passengers at a later date and keep them open. GoVia get to "cave in" and get what they actually want anyway. Peak time opening only at Brighton? Yeah, but of course.

Closing ticket offices was bad enough on Underground, but at least within the TfL zones there's generally a fairly basic fare structure. The closures and reduced hours have been a disaster on London Midland, it's only going to be even worse on GNT.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
What I am asking is are the franchise agreements so specific as to say there must be a ticket office open between xx:xx and yy:yy, or do they just say someone must be selling tickets between those times?

It must be a ticket office, AFAIK.

Hand-held ticket machines do not have the functionality of a ticket office, and stations with a temporary ticket office using a hand-held machine (SWT, for instance, have a few at small stations) are noted as such in the TSA.
 

Bletchleyite

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Never mind Underground, GoVia got away with it on their London Midland franchise so why on earth wouldn't they try it on their other franchises too?

The LM cuts were not even close to the severity of these even as originally proposed. An equivalent would be complete ticket office closure at Watford Jn, say.
 

Haywain

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Whilst I am surprised by the scale of the changes proposed, and struggle to see how they will work at some of the locations, I suspect that GTR are simply an early starter on something that is likely to be more widespread in the future. However, my reason for posting here is because a number of posters have talked about handheld equipment not having the same functionality of a ticket office machine. I am not convinced by this argument with all the development that has recently been taking place of equipment for Avantix replacement, which leads me to believe that the vast majority of the functionality will already be available on suitable equipment, and that solutions can be found to any remaining problems.
 

bb21

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and that solutions can be found to any remaining problems.

If they could resolve the issue of issuing reservations and selling APs on mobile machines or at standalone machines, LU-style, then I do fear that the developments may sound the death knell of ticket offices, even if slowly.

Although how selling APs will work with a POM-style machine is another questions in terms of feasibility, when a single transaction could easily take a good five minutes.
 

paul1609

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What made them pick these stations for these closures? East Grinstead to close, but Upper Warlingham remains open on the same line, despite the latter seeing much lower usage?

Id guess that East Grinstead already has platform staff to dispatch trains empty to sidings who can offer disabled assistance whereas Upper Warlingham ticket office probably does the assistance and cleans the bins on the platform between ticket sales.
 

deltic

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I'm probably in a minority of one but I dont have a problem with the proposals. Making staff more visible and extending staffing hours has to be a good thing. Ticket retailing is a very expensive business and reducing that cost is an important challenge for the industry. As the proportion of tickets sold by means other than ticket offices continues to rise their days are numbered. First DLR then London Underground have shown that it is possible to do without them albeit on a very different type of network.

However, I agree that a step change is needed in improving TVM and severe penalties need to be put in place on TOCs that dont provide the full range of tickets on them or make it clear that alternative tickets can be purchased from staff.
 

Hadders

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Whilst I am surprised by the scale of the changes proposed, and struggle to see how they will work at some of the locations, I suspect that GTR are simply an early starter on something that is likely to be more widespread in the future. However, my reason for posting here is because a number of posters have talked about handheld equipment not having the same functionality of a ticket office machine. I am not convinced by this argument with all the development that has recently been taking place of equipment for Avantix replacement, which leads me to believe that the vast majority of the functionality will already be available on suitable equipment, and that solutions can be found to any remaining problems.

Will this hand held equipment be able to do:

advance tickets
seat reservations
rail and sail tickets
sleeper berth reservations
rovers and rangers
season tickets (including annuals)
season ticket changeovers and refunds
excesses

Somehow I doubt it will. And it'll probably issue tickets on till roll paper!
 

Tetchytyke

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I'm sure that, with enough investment, hand held ticket machines could replicate ticket office machines. But at the moment they don't.
 
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hairyhandedfool

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Will this hand held equipment be able to do:

advance tickets
seat reservations
rail and sail tickets
sleeper berth reservations
rovers and rangers
season tickets (including annuals)
season ticket changeovers and refunds
excesses

Somehow I doubt it will. And it'll probably issue tickets on till roll paper!

Avantix can do Rovers, Rangers and Excess Fares, no reason why the next generation shouldn't be able to.

As for the rest, if the new equipment can't then GTR will have to pay for two machines instead of one (office based and portable) and train staff on their use, costs would therefore rise.
 

bicbasher

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Will these portable machines also be able to sell tickets from debit cards which need to have a live connection to authorise the transaction?
 

Haywain

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Although how selling APs will work with a POM-style machine is another questions in terms of feasibility, when a single transaction could easily take a good five minutes.
A POM-style machine? What's that? It's not an acronym I'm familiar with!

Will this hand held equipment be able to do:

advance tickets
seat reservations
rail and sail tickets
sleeper berth reservations
rovers and rangers
season tickets (including annuals)
season ticket changeovers and refunds
excesses

Somehow I doubt it will. And it'll probably issue tickets on till roll paper!
All that is needed is a tablet and the ability to use the same software, which would perhaps need to be web-based. That and wireless connections to the appropriate peripherals, including printers. This may be something that Fujitsu have developed alongside their Avantix replacement (I believe GTR use Fujitsu Star).

I'm sure that, with enough investment, hand held ticket machines could replicate ticket office machines. But at the moment they don't.

Of course Haywain is normally on here advocating that railway staff are expendable, so their comments here are unsurprising. Haywain is McNulty and I claim my five pounds :lol:
Am I? I'd be interested in your evidence of that. I have a ticket office background and a lot of friends working in ticket offices, but I also recognise that you have to move with the times and adapt to the technology available and the type of service that customers expect. And you don't get five pounds.
 

bb21

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Yes, sorry, it is a type of machine currently used by London Underground at their stations, with reference to "LU style" in an earlier sentence. Obviously too familiar a term myself but not quite so for others.
 

Starmill

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Even crappy S&B machines can sell tickets using a calendar interface at LOROL. So that's a start...
 

alastair

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This is just about cost cutting, nothing more. These staff who are working as hosts will soon find themselves covering the barriers, doing security checks, maybe even dispatching trains after suitable training. Then these "host" roles will disappear as other staff leave.

Especially at some of the larger stations (Welwyn Garden City as mentioned above, for example), there is surely demand for a ticket office during the day, not just for issuing tickets but for giving out information, helping with lost property, and all the other "customer service" functions a ticket office can provide alongside actually selling tickets.

Surely from the passengers point of view,this is about a lot more than "cost cutting"? If virtually every station is going to be staffed(with associated availability of waiting rooms,toilets etc)from first to last train 7 days a week,that sounds to me like a very big bonus and one that the vast majority of passengers will massively welcome,even if it means a small minority may suffer some inconvenience as new ways of selling tickets are introduced.
 

Bletchleyite

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Even crappy S&B machines can sell tickets using a calendar interface at LOROL. So that's a start...

DB's machines (which I think are S&B) have a full online "Trainline style" interface. They're just PCs, you can run whatever software on them you like.

Having helped a very confused couple with the TVM at Bletchley on Sunday evening, I think the option of a step by step "tell me what I want" process on the TVM is very necessary if ticket offices are to be deprecated - even given that the fares to London from BLY are not complicated at all - no TOC specific fares, no Advances.
 

pitdiver

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I live in Flitwick and use the train regularly to travel to London and beyond.I am also a PTAC holder. Will these host be able to issue priv tickets I assume so. What happens if I turn up at say 2200 hrs and want to buy 6 day returns for the following day some are priv others are with a Family Railcard and I want to pay CASH will the host be happy carrying around a load of money, We still use cash in rural Bedfordshire!
 

Clip

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I live in Flitwick and use the train regularly to travel to London and beyond.I am also a PTAC holder. Will these host be able to issue priv tickets I assume so. What happens if I turn up at say 2200 hrs and want to buy 6 day returns for the following day some are priv others are with a Family Railcard and I want to pay CASH will the host be happy carrying around a load of money, We still use cash in rural Bedfordshire!

If you are able to do that at Flitwick now then I don't see why it wouldn't be possible to should this situation arise.
 

Haywain

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I live in Flitwick and use the train regularly to travel to London and beyond.I am also a PTAC holder. Will these host be able to issue priv tickets I assume so. What happens if I turn up at say 2200 hrs and want to buy 6 day returns for the following day some are priv others are with a Family Railcard and I want to pay CASH will the host be happy carrying around a load of money, We still use cash in rural Bedfordshire!
What would happen if you did that today? The reality is you wouldn't be able to, paying with cash or anything else.
 

tsr

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What would happen if you did that today? The reality is you wouldn't be able to, paying with cash or anything else.

If Flitwick were staffed first-to-last train (realistically 24 hours a day, most days) with someone who was trained to sell tickets, it would be reasonable for them to be expected to do that.

You could do all that with an Avantix anyway, and hopefully any successor product. Advances would be more tricky.
 
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alastair

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I live in Flitwick and use the train regularly to travel to London and beyond.I am also a PTAC holder. Will these host be able to issue priv tickets I assume so. What happens if I turn up at say 2200 hrs and want to buy 6 day returns for the following day some are priv others are with a Family Railcard and I want to pay CASH will the host be happy carrying around a load of money, We still use cash in rural Bedfordshire!

2200? Flitwick ticket office closes at 1930 Mon-Fri.much earlier at weekends,so you couldnt do that now. I have sometimes come across "mobile" ticket sellers at various stations and I am sure they were happy to accept cash!
 

pitdiver

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Has anybody actually worked on a station on their own at say 2200hrs on a Friday evening with a possibility of carrying around a quantity of cash as some are suggesting. Why was it then that LUL spent a vast amount of money on building secure booking offices where staff would be easily found at any time or has also been suggested wandering around carrying out other duties. The reason I might want to purchase tickets at 2200 is that the facility will be there so I will want to buy tickets. I'm just wondering if Harlington will be the same or is that remaining as it is.

Another thing is that the Barrier line is in the booking "Hall" at Flitwick. At the moment the gateline is not in operation but it is chaotic on a Monday morning I can't imagine what it will be like when it actually comes into use.
 

Peter Mugridge

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This issue has made the lead item in the online issue of the local rag in Epsom with a few choice pictures of me brandishing a wad of tickets... and wearing my famous flappy hat in a couple of them! ( Well, it did start raining... ). Printed edition will be out on Thursday.

I didn't provide the quotes from the forum, by the way - they've researched that for themselves. Not difficult to do.

http://www.epsomguardian.co.uk/news...rnage__ticket_office_closures_to_be_reversed/


Last week, Govia Thameslink Railway (GTR) announced it would close 81 ticket offices across the country from June this year – including those at Epsom, Leatherhead and Ashtead outside of peak hours.

The National Union of Rail, Maritime and Transport (RMT) condemned the move, calling it a ‘wave of ticket office carnage’ and said GTR ‘doesn’t give two hoots’ about customers.

More....
 
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