If you buy a valid ticket for your journey, are you guaranteed to have it accepted?

[Tallguy]

Moderator note: Split from

What personal information should you give if stop by a Ticket Inspector?

Following on from another thread concerning use of the electoral roll in identification, I was wondering what information you should give if a ticket Inspecter (or RPI, or whatever the correct title is for someone who is reporting you for prosecution or Penalty Fare) asks for. I can understand...

www.railforums.co.uk

Following on from another thread concerning use of the electoral roll in identification, I was wondering what information you should give ...

It is highly unlikely that I will ever be in this situation as I always buy the correct ticket but if I was faced with this, I certainly wouldn’t be giving out bank details, NI numbers etc and yes I can remember both my NI and Driving licence numbers!

If stopped give the information you are required to under law, give it truthfully and give nothing else in my book. Easy for me to say mind, I’ve never been stopped for having the wrong or no ticket. Nor will I ever be stopped for this as I always buy the correct ticket.

But to be blunt, if you buy the right ticket you‘ll have nothing to worry about.

 

[Hadders]

If stopped give the information you are required to under law, give it truthfully and give nothing else in my book. Easy for me to say mind, I’ve never been stopped for having the wrong or no ticket. Nor will I ever be stopped for this as I always buy the correct ticket.

But to be blunt, if you buy the right ticket you‘ll have nothing to worry about.

There have been numerous threads over the years about people who have perfectly valid tickets being questioned, threatened with prosecution and in some cases actually prosecuted. Sadly holding a valid ticket doesn't always guarantee a hassle free journey (and I'm not talking about edge case loophole tickets either).

 

[SteveM70]

Nor will I ever be stopped for this as I always buy the correct ticket.

I admire your confidence that you’ll never make a mistake, or perhaps more surprisingly your faith that an ticket inspector will never make a mistake

 

[Tallguy]

I hate fare dodgers too but there have been numerous threads over the years about people who have perfectly valid tickets being questioned, threatened with prosecution and in some cases actually prosecuted. Sadly holding a valid ticket doesn't always guarantee a hassle free journey (and I'm not talking about edge case loophole tickets either).

If a ticket inspector makes that much of an Error that I am pursued for fare evasion whilst holding a perfectly valid ticket then the TOC in question will know about it, as will the local press etc. If I make a mistake it’s down to me.....hence why I plan my journeys carefully Although many of my journeys are simple point to point but they frequently involve split ticketing.

 

[Hadders]

If a ticket inspector makes that much of an Error that I am pursued for fare evasion whilst holding a perfectly valid ticket then the TOC in question will know about it, as will the local press etc. If I make a mistake it’s down to me.....hence why I plan my journeys carefully Although many of my journeys are simple point to point but they frequently involve split ticketing.

I assume you only ever use Anytime tickets then?

The vast majority of rail staff are fine but there are far too many who lack knowledge and like to make up their own rules. A couple of years ago I was travelling from Kings Cross to Stevenage in the evening rush hour using an Off Peak Day Return ticket that had no evening restrictions. The barrier would not let me through so I asked to be let through manually, the gate line assistant refused so I asked for a manager to attend who backed up the member of staff. This was despite me showing irrefutable evidence that the ticket was valid. The whole incident was witnessed by several forum members.

I am knowledgeable enough in ticketing matters to know how to deal with this sort of thing but vast majority of passengers aren't and will simply believe what they are told.

 

[Tallguy]

I would say that 50% of my national rail journeys are Princes Risborough to Marylebone return and are therefore a simple ticket purchase, be it an anytime or off peak ticket. I used to have a network railcard which I have currently let lapse as I am making very few off peak train journeys at present. The rest of my trips are carefully planned and may involve split tickets, advanced ticket purchase or simply buying a ‘turn up and go’ ticket which I know the route for. My Current train travel is nothing like it was pre Covid in terms of journey length and frequency.

With regard to your experience detailed above Hadders, what was the outcome and did you make a formal complaint against the members of staff involved?

 

[yorkie]

But to be blunt, if you buy the right ticket you‘ll have nothing to worry about.

Not true. If you want to put it to the test, there are loads of tickets you could buy, make a valid journey on, and yet potentially be challenged, but this is something for an entirely separate thread.

There are loads of examples on the forum if you want to search for them. If you wish to discuss it further, you are welcome to create a new thread.

 

[Tallguy]

Not true. If you want to put it to the test, there are loads of tickets you could buy, make a valid journey on, and yet potentially be challenged, but this is something for an entirely separate thread.

There are loads of examples on the forum if you want to search for them. If you wish to discuss it further, you are welcome to create a new thread.

I must disagree with you Yorkie. If you have purchased the correct valid ticket for the journey you are undertaking you have nothing to worry about. Yes you can be challenged, yes you can be questioned but if the ticket inspector or whoever is challenging you doesn’t understand the validity of the ticket you are holding, it’s their problem, not yours. Yes they can issue a penalty fare etc but you can easily defeat this after the journey and get an apology, compensation or whatever. You can also achieve a ‘learning outcome’ for the errant member of staff.

There are jobsworth, untrained, know-it-all idiots in every profession.

Looking at your comment Yorkie it appears Others on this forum have had this problem so I will create a new thread as you suggested.

 

[yorkie]

I must disagree with you Yorkie.

Fine, I'll provide examples of where people have had plenty to worry about, despite holding valid tickets.

If you have purchased the correct valid ticket for the journey you are undertaking you have nothing to worry about. Yes you can be challenged, yes you can be questioned but if the ticket inspector or whoever is challenging you doesn’t understand the validity of the ticket you are holding, it’s their problem, not yours.

It does become your problem when the onus is on you to defend yourself though. The current system is weighted against the customer.

Yes they can issue a penalty fare etc but you can easily defeat this after the journey and get an apology, compensation or whatever.

This can be a lot of work and the matter can go to court, resulting in loss of earnings, stress etc.

The time spent defending any such claim may never be compensated

You can also achieve a ‘learning outcome’ for the errant member of staff.

This is the rail industry we're talking about! It's not like any other; if me or you made a mistake of this nature, we'd be in far greater trouble

There are jobsworth, untrained, know-it-all idiots in every profession.

True, though a jobsworth is someone who does the job 'to the letter' without applying common sense, which is a different subject entirely (i.e. they may reject a ticket that is not valid but they should do so on other grounds; it's a different topic)

Looking at your comment Yorkie it appears Others on this forum have had this problem so I will create a new thread as you suggested.

As you replied in the other thread, I have split the thread.

 

[SteveM70]

I must disagree with you Yorkie. If you have purchased the correct valid ticket for the journey you are undertaking you have nothing to worry about. Yes you can be challenged, yes you can be questioned but if the ticket inspector or whoever is challenging you doesn’t understand the validity of the ticket you are holding, it’s their problem, not yours. Yes they can issue a penalty fare etc but you can easily defeat this after the journey and get an apology, compensation or whatever. You can also achieve a ‘learning outcome’ for the errant member of staff.

There are jobsworth, untrained, know-it-all idiots in every profession.

Looking at your comment Yorkie it appears Others on this forum have had this problem so I will create a new thread as you suggested.

Are you incredibly naive or trolling? I genuinely have no idea

 

[yorkie]

On 9th April 2015 @thebigcheese was denied travel by Southeastern staff at St Pancras; they had objected to the use of the outward portion of his ticket earlier in the day and claimed the ticket had been "banned" in time for his return journey. @thebigcheese was travelling in accordance with the itinerary provided as part of his booking, which is evidence of a contract.

Also @Merseysider reported a similar refusal by Southeastern:

Three of us on valid tickets that SE's incompetent minions gateline attendants plus one supervisor/manager didn't want to accept as valid, even after two printed itineraries, the National Rail website, SE's Twitter team, the Southeastern website and SE's customer service via phone all confirming we should be allowed to travel, for anyone that wasn't there. Two of us bought new tickets and are in the process of deciding how to proceed.

On many occasions @RJ was denied travel and/or removed from trains or incorrectly issued penalty/excess fares by Southeastern, who also committed a data breach in 2013: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/tocs-sharing-out-information-on-passengers.92612/. See also https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/route-tilby-excl-ferry-no-longer-exists.87461/


@SETCommuter experienced being the victim of false allegations of committing crime when using a valid ticket; though it appears he was not charged or taken to court, it was an unpleasant experience: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/explaining-a-ticket-to-a-conductor.94909/

In November 2012 Andrew Myers was denied travel using a valid Season ticket and was forced to purchase a new ticket; the matter went to court and the customer won the case: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...r-of-passenger-using-a-permitted-route.90684/ however many people would not have been prepared to go to court and would have been left out of poicket. The TOC was First Capital Connect (FCC) which has since become part of Govia Thameslink Railway (GTR).

In 2013 @LuluG was issued a penalty fare by FCC for using a valid ticket that simply had the word "Disc" (short for discount) on the ticket; the ticket had an online discount applied https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/in-trouble-for-using-a-ticket-displaying-disc.80415/

In 2011 @jon0844 was detained by an FCC RPI for three hours despite holding a valid ticket: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/mg11d-by-my-favourite-fcc-rpi-combined-z123-z456-ticket.47857/ (last I knew, the RPI who did that was promoted to the role of Driver)

The issues on GTR with regard to brand names are very well documented; there are too many incidents to list them all, but the company has issued many penalty fares, new fares, excess fares to passengers holding perfectly valid fares, which GTR have claimed are invalid due to a brand restriction, for which there is absolutely no basis in the Ticketing Settlement Agreement (TSA) or any of the relevant legislation. This has been going on since the days of Southern (see https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/penalty-fare-at-victoria-southern-vs-gat-ex.117738/ and https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/southern-admit-they-were-wrong-to-sell-gx-supplement.64324/ ) which suggests the DfT may be in cahoots with the relevant train companies over this matter.

If you tap in to gain entry into Wimbledon station, then board a tram, you can be issued with a penalty fare or threatened with prosecution, as happened to @Jaybee111: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/tram-penalty.155758/ (OK so this may not be "valid" but a layperson may not unreasonably think they are valid)

A passenger was taken to court over holding a valid ticket routed +London on CrossCountry: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/taken-to-court-facing-criminal-charges-advice-needed.156920/ ; the ticket was entirely valid for the journey made (equally by completing the double-back between Reading and London or also also by not doing so) and yet the passenger was prosecuted on the erroneous basis that the train did not go via London.

Another passenger was taken to court on the erroneous basis that the customer is responsible for their connecting train being delayed: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ion-sowerby-bridge-birmingham-journey.203895/ ; the customer should have been compensated, not prosecuted!

The above incidents are mostly historical because they occurred back to the days when I read every thread posted in this section. I no longer have time to read more than a tiny percentage of posts, partly because I am busier but also mostly because the forum has grown massively in that time (from 150 active members per day to around 3,800). I'm not the best person to recall recent incidents but there must be many of them.

I am also aware that @MikeWh has assisted many people who have made legitimate journeys in the London area, particularly using Contactless/Oyster PAYG, who have tapped in & out correctly, and yet been issued penalty fares or threatened with prosecution.

 

[Tallguy]

Are you incredibly naive or trolling? I genuinely have no idea

Neither.

On 9th April 2015 @thebigcheese was denied travel by Southeastern staff at St Pancras; they had objected to the use of the outward portion of his ticket earlier in the day and claimed the ticket had been "banned" in time for his return journey. @thebigcheese was travelling in accordance with the itinerary provided as part of his booking, which is evidence of a contract.

Also @Merseysider reported a similar refusal by Southeastern:

These are examples of untrained staff. If I was in their scenarios I would be following this up with formal complaints against the members of staff concerned, along with a claim for my costs In purchasing new tickets, alternative travel etc and compensation.

If your ticket for that specific journey is valid you will easily win. Enough complaints about a staff member will hopefully lead to questions being asked at the relevant TOC And some re-training.

 

[SickyNicky]

I can say from the experience of our customers that it's not uncommon for clearly valid tickets to be rejected. In this case they may be forced to buy an alternative ticket to cover the journey and then go through the complaints procedure to recover this. A good retailer will help with this. But this is terribly inconvenient and can be embarrassing. It may also be that the customer doesn't have the funds for an alternative ticket. That may well be a cause for "worry".

So it's definitely a problem. And some gatelines are worse than others.

 

[Tallguy]

I can say from the experience of our customers that it's not uncommon for clearly valid tickets to be rejected. In this case they may be forced to buy an alternative ticket to cover the journey and then go through the complaints procedure to recover this. A good retailer will help with this. But this is terribly inconvenient and can be embarrassing. It may also be that the customer doesn't have the funds for an alternative ticket. That may well be a cause for "worry".

So it's definitely a problem. And some gatelines are worse than others.

Which gate lines do you consider to be more problematic than others?

 

[yorkie]

Which gate lines do you consider to be more problematic than others?

Euston, Paddington.

In the past Southeastern High Speed and King's Cross (LNER) have been responsible for numerous incidents.

 

[LowLevel]

I must disagree with you Yorkie. If you have purchased the correct valid ticket for the journey you are undertaking you have nothing to worry about. Yes you can be challenged, yes you can be questioned but if the ticket inspector or whoever is challenging you doesn’t understand the validity of the ticket you are holding, it’s their problem, not yours. Yes they can issue a penalty fare etc but you can easily defeat this after the journey and get an apology, compensation or whatever. You can also achieve a ‘learning outcome’ for the errant member of staff.

There are jobsworth, untrained, know-it-all idiots in every profession.

Looking at your comment Yorkie it appears Others on this forum have had this problem so I will create a new thread as you suggested.

As a ticket inspector I must disagree about the extent to which you shouldn't worry as that assumes "the system" works and is fully understood by it's practitioners, which it is not.

Thus it is possible to go through many stages of dispute resolution and get nowhere, potentially racking up fees etc in the mean time, all the while with the threat of criminal prosecution looming over you at which point you then have to hope that a magistrate gets your point.

In theory there should always be a way out, in practice I am sure there are many people who have been stung and indeed convicted over the years when they shouldn't have been.

I witnessed at least part of a campaign against RJ of this parish while I was at work as a dispatcher who was well known on a certain route for making use of creative ticketing to make their travelling requirements affordable.

It got the point where it had gone wrong so many times the train operator issued a memo advising inspectors to take them at face value and assume they were right and I believe it still didn't 100% resolve the problem. It was simply pig headed ignorance and a refusal to accept that they could be wrong. Any one who knows anything about railway ticketing internally should start with an open mind because it is arcane and you should be fully open to the possibility of being incorrect and gracious about it should you need to get into the fine detail.

Not to worry is the wrong phrase, it is very worrisome indeed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Short answer to the thread question - "no".

I've certainly had issues before, even using non-obscure tickets or combinations thereof. Most notable is (as @yorkie mentions) Euston gateline are very likely to reject Condition 14 splits at stations south of MKC.

 

[Gloster]

It can cause other problems. In the days of Virgin Cross-country a friend was travelling from Bristol to York. The tickets for her and her two schoolage children had had been bought by her boyfriend, who was waiting for her in York. North of Birmingham the guard or a RPI told her that her tickets were not valid and insisted that she bought new ones. She felt that if she didn’t they would all be met by the police at the next major station and removed from the train. This effectively took all the cash that had been put aside for a holiday, so much so that they had to come back early. She, or rather her boyfriend, did later get the money refunded as the ticket was valid (I am not sure why the guard or RPI thought it wasn’t), but she has been rather put off travelling by rail. (Details are as I remember them.)

A perfectly innocent person with valid tickets was seriously inconvenienced.

 

[LOL The Irony]

These are examples of untrained staff. If I was in their scenarios I would be following this up with formal complaints against the members of staff concerned, along with a claim for my costs In purchasing new tickets, alternative travel etc and compensation.

If your ticket for that specific journey is valid you will easily win. Enough complaints about a staff member will hopefully lead to questions being asked at the relevant TOC And some re-training.

Your problem is you're looking at this with reason & logic, something that isn't a given when dealing with humans. You're also forgetting that at least 95% of people would just cave and buy a new ticket, with the incident probably going unreported. Does it suck? Yes. But it won't change until people are informed of their rights as a passenger and start challenging decisions they think are wrong, or when someone with a lot of money and free time takes the TOC's to court over it.

As for the staff, just look at the Blackpool North thread if you ever want to lose faith in the complaints system.

 

[SteveM70]

Enough complaints about a staff member will hopefully lead to questions being asked at the relevant TOC And some re-training.

Yeah, right. About as likely as repeatedly buying lottery tickets and hoping to win the jackpot. Possible but highly unlikely

Euston, Paddington.

In the past Southeastern High Speed and King's Cross (LNER) have been responsible for numerous incidents.

Manchester Victoria. At least two of the gateline staff simply refuse to accept that there’s no evening peak on tickets to stations in West Yorkshire. Every time. And sooner or later a supervisor or colleague will come across and say the ticket is valid. Upwards of a dozen emails later it’s still like Groundhog Day

 

[island]

Enough complaints about a staff member will hopefully lead to questions being asked at the relevant TOC And some re-training.

I don't share your levels of hope.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't share your levels of hope.

Blackpool North (I typed that "Blackpoor" originally, that wasn't far off), Avanti gateline staff at Euston and for that matter the Coach K issue prove that some staff issues are just too hard for the management to be bothered.

 

[PeterC]

This all sounds like a very good reason to keep on using the car.

 

[Polarbear]

In short answer to the OP. no, unfortunately not. Whilst I've not experienced the following scenario personally, I'm aware of instances where police have been called to meet West Coast services at Euston as conductors have accused customers of holding invalid tickets. The tickets were of course, perfectly valid, being off peak fares for longer distance services (such as from stations in North Wales & Lancaster), but that didn't prevent any of the worry.

The dire warnings often repeated ad-nauseum on supposed "peak" services where certain off-peak tickets are perfectly valid are also sufficient to put worry into the minds of those who may be less sure of their rights & ticket validities.

 

[matt_world2004]

There are insufficent penalties in the franchise agreement against operators who issue penalty fares or prosecution attempts/out of court settlements for those that have valid tickets.

 

[Haywain]

last I knew, the RPI who did that was promoted to the role of Driver

I think it’s a stretch to call that a promotion - a driver may be better paid but it’s a different ladder rather than a step up.

This all sounds like a very good reason to keep on using the car.

It is important to be aware that the majority of travellers have no problems at all, but the is an outside chance of it which Tallguy seems to think can’t happen.

 

[RJ]

If you buy a valid ticket for your journey, are you guaranteed to have it accepted?​

The short answer to that question is no.

If it happens, the railways usually take the view that it's the customer's fault for creating a complicated situation - the possibility that a colleague may have made a mistake will never be admitted. They'll either try and brush it under the carpet, try to get you done for fare evasion to save face or give you the benefit of the doubt.

Once you get some life experience under your belt, you'll learn the art of holding errant companies to task and persuading them to put things right properly.

 

[yorkie]

This all sounds like a very good reason to keep on using the car.

I do not own a car. I rely almost entirely on public transport if I go beyond York. The percentage of journeys where I experience a problem is tiny.

However, when a lot of people make a lot of journeys, a small percentage adds up to a very noticeable number of incidents.

It is not a reason to stop travelling by train.

(I play football; I cycle; I join others for walks and meals... if I wanted to guarantee to be free of road traffic accidents and harmful viruses, I would be forced to give up all of those things, but that wouldn't make sense, at least not to rational people)

 

[Hadders]

Here's a good example from earlier this year of a passenger, with a perfectly valid combination of tickets, who was delayed due to the railway and missed a connection. Cross Country initiated court action and were it not for the advice of this forum I fear the OP may well have been found guilty.

Split ticket - Connecting train delayed - Court action (Sowerby Bridge - Birmingham journey)

Good afternoon, opinions please. All day single - Sowerby Bridge 06.06 to Manc Pic 07.15 (Northern Rail) Advanced - Manc Pic 07.27 to Birmingham NS 09.15 (Xcountry) Northern Rail train delayed, arrived Manc Pic 07.36, so I boarded the next avaliable train my Xcountry on the same route at...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[superalbs]

No, from experience.