Incident at Wandsworth Common 07/08/16

[Antman]

A number of people have questioned or suggested that the deceased could have been an enthusiast hanging out of the window, or referred to this incident as an accident, but to me this seems to be ignoring the more obvious possibility that it could be a suicide. With this in mind I'm somewhat surprised by the way that the media have revelled in reporting this story. Slow news day?

I have no idea what happened, but I don't think anybody should jump to conclusions, particularly just because a 442 is involved.

Who has revelled in reporting this story?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

A sense of proportion is required here.

There may well be plenty of valid reasons why the class 442 won't be used elsewhere, however one isolated incident involving one droplight window, which could easily have bars fitted if deemed desirable, definitely isn't such a reason.

At the end of the day, tragic though the incident is, choosing to lean out of a window is one's own choice, and is a calculated risk. I certainly would not expect major expense to be incurred eradicating a "risk" which is basically non existant if one does not choose to lean out. I'd prefer any money to go towards level crossing safety instead, which for me is a far more deserving issue.

If a knee-jerk reaction to this incident results in a major push to eradicate any window where there's any possibility of leaning out (basically a comparatively small fleet comprising 442s, HSTs and MK3s - any others?), I'd be more concerned about preserved railways, where just about every vehicle has such windows in some form or another. Many enthusiasts do enjoy leaning out, and evidently it's not been a major issue over many years as otherwise some form of action would have already been taken.

Absolutely, as awful as this incident was it has to be kept in proportion.

 

[the sniper]

It seems very complex for a suicide. Its not absolutely unknown for suicides from droplights but going to the effort of finding the one type of stock in the south east still with droplights (on the ever dropping amount of diagrams they do) to jump out of seems unlikely when jumping under a train is far easier.

I wouldn't assume that a great deal of planning goes into every suicide. Sometimes an opportunity can just present itself to someone in a very dark place, being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I'm just saying, I wouldn't presume anything.

Who has revelled in reporting this story?

My interpretation of the reporting style of outlets like the Daily Star.

 

[Antman]

I wouldn't assume that a great deal of planning goes into every suicide. Sometimes an opportunity can just present itself to someone in a very dark place, being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I'm just saying, I wouldn't presume anything.



My interpretation of the reporting style of outlets like the Daily Star.

Well yes the Daily Star is more like a comic than a newspaper but otherwise reporting of the incident seems ok even if accompanied by a photo of a different type of train.

 

[AlterEgo]

Well yes the Daily Star is more like a comic than a newspaper but otherwise reporting of the incident seems ok even if accompanied by a photo of a different type of train.

The Star was the one that got it right!

 

[Tio Terry]

I seem to remember some years ago a passenger being decapitated having put his head out of a window and coming in to contact with temporary scaffolding that had been erected far to close to the side of passing trains. Somewhere on Southern I think.

Could be something similar, I don't know, time will reveal all.

 

[Antman]

The Star was the one that got it right!

Oh right, I stand corrected. I didn't actually see the report

 

[AlterEgo]

There was also a (probably apocryphal) story of some American tourist years ago, travelling south out of Waverley. He apparently was leaning well out of the door droplight and taking a picture back towards the city and castle, whereupon his head contacted the tunnel wall and he died.

I've never been able to verify that story.

 

[Antman]

There was also a (probably apocryphal) story of some American tourist years ago, travelling south out of Waverley. He apparently was leaning well out of the door droplight and taking a picture back towards the city and castle, whereupon his head contacted the tunnel wall and he died.

I've never been able to verify that story.

I seem to recall something similar at Crystal Palace many years ago.

 

[NSEFAN]

There are some extremely tight clearances on the Brighton mainline, I'm not surprised that the old Connex slam door EMUs were fitted with window bars.

 

[XDM]

Yes. This will cease to be an issue given the type of unit involved is currently being withdrawn, and other types with droplights will be withdrawn prior to the 2020 PRM-TSI deadline.

It's a known issue and one the industry is trying to resolve just as quickly as it possibly can.

I may be wrong but surely all HSTs have opening windows. And other posters have mentioned the Norwich expresses. Our usual sofa critic rushed to attack someone who much earlier on asked how often this happens. It's a reasonable question,which influences whether remedial action need be taken. If it is a very rare event then perhaps there is no need for reaction. That is the joy of this site,that knowledgeable people can inform us. It is disappointing that one carper sets out to stop it. Any info on window incidents anyone? It is not heartless to discuss it. It is a given that we all feel very sorry for the deceased. Many of the older posters musthave looked out of windows.
The enterprising Swanage & Tun wells Groombridge lines may be worried as they are/will run adjacent to the main line. I hope without reason.

 

[tony6499]

I seem to remember some years ago a passenger being decapitated having put his head out of a window and coming in to contact with temporary scaffolding that had been erected far to close to the side of passing trains. Somewhere on Southern I think.

Could be something similar, I don't know, time will reveal all.

There was an incident on the road bridge approaching Eastbourne when a passenger leant too far out and was killed

 

[ComUtoR]

None of whom are likely to read your message.

There are many staff members who frequent this forum. I can tell you for a fact that at least one incident relayed on this forum, I have know the Driver personally.

A lot of traincrew and rail staff go to work each day knowing that it may be their turn next. Every time one of these incidents is posted I can guarantee some of us are a little more aware for the next few days.

There is a very voyeuristic nature to these stories and the media will sensationalise it to an extent. There is a very high likelihood that someone involved or people directly linked to the individuals involved could be reading.

 

[QueensCurve]

This reminds me of why the dmus on the Cumbrian coast line had bars on the windows of the coaches as there are low bridges and tunnels along the line.

Trains on the Cumbrian Coast have had bars on the droplights going back to the "classic" DMUs. This is because of restricted structure gauge on the Maryport and Carlisle.

I seem to recall that there is a location in South London where the infrastructure approaches unusually close to the train and someone suffered a serious head injury there about 1980. I don't recall whether this was Wandsworth Common.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

It's been a good few years since I last rode on a Mk3 coach, do all Mk3s (apart from the Chilternised ones and the 442s) require someone opening the door to open the window fully and use an external door handle or do they all have internal door handles?

 

[yorksrob]

It's been a good few years since I last rode on a Mk3 coach, do all Mk3s (apart from the Chilternised ones and the 442s) require someone opening the door to open the window fully and use an external door handle or do they all have internal door handles?

No, pretty much all external only.

I've seen internal door handles retro-fitted to a mk1, so I assume it would be relatively straight forward for a mk3.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

No, pretty much all external only.

I've seen internal door handles retro-fitted to a mk1, so I assume it would be relatively straight forward for a mk3.

I wonder if we'll see all remaining non-chilternised Mk3s have internal door handles fitted and the windows permanently sealed shut or modified so they can be locked with a T-key

 

[Dhassell]

No, pretty much all external only.

I've seen internal door handles retro-fitted to a mk1, so I assume it would be relatively straight forward for a mk3.

Thing is, Would it be cost effective to do it to so many coaches which soon will be taken out of service to be replaced by IEP's on East Coast and GWML?

 

[yorksrob]

I wonder if we'll see all remaining non-chilternised Mk3s have internal door handles fitted and the windows permanently sealed shut or modified so they can be locked with a T-key

Personally I doubt it. Not unless there are a spate of such occurrences, or the mk3's are required to last longer than expected.

I've been on this forum for about seven years and I can't remember a similar fatality happening in that time (although I stand to be corrected).

 

[bb21]

The Star was the one that got it right!

They did not. There was no other train involved. Couldn't have been more wrong in the fundamental details of the accident.

 

[yorksrob]

Thing is, Would it be cost effective to do it to so many coaches which soon will be taken out of service to be replaced by IEP's on East Coast and GWML?

No, in truth, probably not, except for those that are getting new doors anyway.

 

[Harbornite]

Here's the daily mail's take on the matter, which I don't think has been shared on here.

A rail passenger was thought to have been 'decapitated' yesterday after leaning out of a carriage window before being struck by an oncoming train.

The man, who was in his 20s, was on board a Gatwick Express service from the busy airport to London Victoria station when he was struck by a speeding train.

Police and ambulance crews rushed to Wandsworth Common station in south west London when the man was hit after he 'didn't notice the train was coming'.

One onlooker called Rhianna, from Battersea, said his head 'flew off' and gave Wandsworth Radio a gruesome account of the incident, which was witnessed by two ladies on the platform.

Rhianna said: 'He lifted his head out and basically he didn't notice that the train was coming, so all you see is basically a head gone.

'The head flew off basically. I actually ran because it was disgusting but all I saw was a head (that) flew away.

'People screamed, the train stopped and people were screaming and they were coming out.

'There was obviously the two ladies, they were more traumatic, but all I saw was a split second of what happened, if you know what I mean.

'I just saw everyone moving, I just had to turn my head away.'

The witness said that there were around '15 to 20' people on the carriage and she recalled the moment she spoke to a woman who was 'traumatised'.

She added: 'The woman that mostly saw it, I spoke to her and she was crying.

'She was just hurt that see saw something like that and she was traumatised.'

British Transport Police are still investigating the incident but added that initial enquiries suggest the man may have been 'leaning out of a train door window' when he 'suffered a blow to the head'.

Police sealed off the area and a number of trains were delayed as authorities dealt with the incident

A helicopter landed nearby to assist with the operation but the man was pronounced dead at the scene
One Twitter user wrote online that someone had been 'beheaded' by a train in Wandsworth

Social media users were quick to speculate how the horrific incident could have happened on board a train.

One account, run by a self-proclaimed travel expert known as Mr Sinclair, said the train was 'ancient' and has windows 'easily big enough to put a head through'.

Mr Sinclair wrote on Twitter: 'The class 442 (ancient ones forced by Govt on GatEx) have Windows easily big enough to put head through.

'Many haven't been secured shut. I imagine due to air con poor reliability.'

A separate account, posting under the name Train and Plane Hub, added: 'They (windows) can be opened quite easily and in summer months they're often open for ventilation.'

Following the devastating incident, several officers carried the man's body - which was wrapped in a blanket - to the back of a private ambulance.

Officers had placed a police cordon around the entrance to the station after they attended the scene.

The BTP has reported the fatal incident to the Rail Accident Investigation Branch (RAIB) and the tragic death - which is being treated as non suspicious - caused severe disruptions to a number of services in south London.

Trains had to be diverted or cancelled as emergency services worked at the scene.

The Gatwick Express service between the West Sussex-based airport and London Victoria was disrupted along with many Southern routes including those from Victoria to East Grinstead, Brighton, Bognor Regis, and Hastings.

A BTP spokesman said: 'We were called at around 5.30pm following a report a man in his 20s had received a serious head injury while travelling on a train between Balham and Wandsworth.

'Emergency services rushed to the scene but despite their best efforts, nothing could be done to save him.

'Our investigation remains at an early stage, but initial enquiries suggest the man may have been leaning out of a train door window when he suffered a blow to the head.

'Officers are currently working to confirm his identity and inform his next of kin.'

Inspector James Tyrrell, from the British Transport Police, added: 'We are aware of a number of reports on social media which say the man was decapitated, however this is not the case.

'We are continuing to investigate the circumstances of the incident, which has been reported to the Rail Accident Investigation Branch (RAIB), and I'd urge anyone who saw what happened to contact us.

'The death is not being treated as suspicious and a file will be prepared for the coroner.'

A London Ambulance spokesman added: 'We were called at 5.34pm to reports of an incident at Wandsworth Common Railway Station.

'We sent an ambulance crew, a single responder in a car and an incident response officer to the scene, alongside London's Air Ambulance.

'But sadly, despite the efforts of the crews, the patient was pronounced dead by the doctor from the air ambulance.'

A British Transport Police spokesman continued: 'Medics from the local Ambulance service also attended but the man was pronounced deceased at the scene.

'A file will be prepared for the Coroner. The train involved was a Gatwick Express Service from Gatwick Airport to London Victoria.'

Police and ambulance crews rushed to Wandsworth
Southern Rail tweeted that the services between Victoria and Balham would be delayed after the tragic incident

Southern Rail tweeted that the services between Victoria and Balham would be delayed after the tragic incident

A spokesman for Gatwick Express, which is run by Southern railway, said it first received reports about the incident at 5.45pm.

He said: 'We have received reports of an incident on board a Gatwick Express train which was en route to Victoria from Gatwick this afternoon.

'The emergency services are in attendance at Wandsworth Common station. We have no further information at this stage.'

Southern Rail tweeted that services between Victoria and Balham were being delayed, saying: 'Emergency services dealing with an incident between Balham & Wandsworth Common.'

Residents who live close to the scene said they were shocked to see the air ambulance land on the common earlier in the afternoon.

One said: 'We were coming back across the common when we saw the helicopter land.

'It was at about 6pm. There were lots of police and ambulances there, it was disconcerting.'

Another added: 'I heard a man was hit by a train and heard the air ambulance land on the common. It's such a horrible thing to have happened.'

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ated-speeding-train-sticking-head-window.html

 

[DarloRich]

this is a sad, upsetting, deeply unpleasant and strange incident - I think it is best to await an official report.

 

[ScouserGirl]

That pretty much confirms that picture on the Daily Star is not a graphical image. Seriously, some people of the media like to build bigger bricks on words sometimes...

Thing is I've also seen other things which state the poor guy was decapitated the poor man was in his 20's how awfully sad this is why people shouldn't window hang but I think we have all done it at some point!

 

[TheEdge]

I wonder if we'll see all remaining non-chilternised Mk3s have internal door handles fitted and the windows permanently sealed shut or modified so they can be locked with a T-key

Unlikely, that would be on overreaction to a tragic but very rare event. Internal handles would see the numbers of door on the catch and, if there is an unspotted CDL fault, open in traffic, skyrocket. Not such an issue at the moment where it's impossible to accidently open a Mk3 door.

 

[talldave]

Trains on the Cumbrian Coast have had bars on the droplights going back to the "classic" DMUs. This is because of restricted structure gauge on the Maryport and Carlisle.

I seem to recall that there is a location in South London where the infrastructure approaches unusually close to the train and someone suffered a serious head injury there about 1980. I don't recall whether this was Wandsworth Common.

If it's the same incident I remember I think it was on the West Croydon to Sutton line - the guy lived in my street.

 

[Varney]

I believe the signal gantry post involved can be seen here. https://youtu.be/hRfeQH2y434?t=25m14s

I suspect this gantry post is even closer to the centre of a coach as it passes, as it is on a inside curve which is also superelevated. The fact that the guards door with it's opening droplight is also in the centre of the coach may well have been a factor.

 

[Tim R-T-C]

I do love how in the UK a train from 1988 is considered ancient and having a single opening window is considered dangerous.

Lets just hope none of them ever travel by train in Europe

 

[DarloRich]

I believe the signal gantry post involved can be seen here. https://youtu.be/hRfeQH2y434?t=25m14s

I suspect this gantry post is even closer to the centre of a coach as it passes, as it is on a inside curve which is also superelevated. The fact that the guards door with it's opening droplight is also in the centre of the coach may well have been a factor.

should we leave the sleuthing to the professionals?

 

[Dhassell]

I believe the signal gantry post involved can be seen here. https://youtu.be/hRfeQH2y434?t=25m14s

I suspect this gantry post is even closer to the centre of a coach as it passes, as it is on a inside curve which is also superelevated. The fact that the guards door with it's opening droplight is also in the centre of the coach may well have been a factor.

The gantry photo has already been shown about 4 times.....

 

[QueensCurve]

It's been a good few years since I last rode on a Mk3 coach, do all Mk3s (apart from the Chilternised ones and the 442s) require someone opening the door to open the window fully and use an external door handle or do they all have internal door handles?

Mk 3 as built had an interior door handle and originally the drop light was locked with a bolt.

The droplights were unlocked and a plate bolted over the interior handle after some incidents where people fell out of moving trains, apparently thinking they were opening the window.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

No, pretty much all external only.

I've seen internal door handles retro-fitted to a mk1, so I assume it would be relatively straight forward for a mk3.

All you do is remove the 4 bolts holding in place the plate which covers the handle.