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Incident at Wandsworth Common 07/08/16

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AlterEgo

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How, exactly?

Unless you welded the bar at the top of the window to the frame of the door and then if any guard needed use of that window they then would not be able to use it...

You just install a lock, like they did on the passenger doors. This would surely be a one day job, assuming they have the locks.

Or you could weld it like you say. I've never seen a guard use this door, or the window - which is in the passenger corridor.
 
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JonathanH

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Sad news, but I do wonder why the stock didn't have a lock put on those dropdowns when they went Driver only on certain routes, and when in use on other services such as London Bridge-Eastbourne the guard able to unlock to perform duties.

You don't expect this to happen. The door was adjusted to fit secondary door locking but not to have a lockable droplight.

Given the 'Thameslink 6' 387/2s will return to Gatwick Express shortly, 442s will be removed from Gatwick Express duties. Could Southern eliminate the other 442 workings just by selecting a few trains for a reduced formation? Indeed, they could immediately withdraw the 442s by running a few Gatwick services 8 v 12 for a few weeks.
 
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IanXC

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BTP said:
Anyone with information is urged to call BTP on 0800 40 50 40 ref 371 of 07/08/16.

The forum staff would like to highlight the BTPs request for information. If you think you have seen or are aware of anything no matter how insignificant it may seem, please do get in touch with them.
 

EssexCommuter

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Sad news, but I do wonder why the stock didn't have a lock put on those dropdowns when they went Driver only on certain routes, and when in use on other services such as London Bridge-Eastbourne the guard able to unlock to perform duties.

Door windows on the Norwich [NRW] to London Liverpool St [LST] can be fully opened at any time.
Indeed, they have posters asking people to close them for efficiency. They also boast about central door locking, which is a little embarrassing in this day and age.
 
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Bishopstone

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Or you could weld it like you say. I've never seen a guard use this door, or the window - which is in the passenger corridor.

That door and window are the position from which a guard dispatches a 442 where DOO does not apply, eg the Eastbourne peak workings.
 

Darandio

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Door windows on the Norwich [NRW] to London Liverpool St [LST] can be fully opened at any time.
Indeed, they have posters asking people to close them for efficiency. They also boast about central door locking, which is a little embarrassing in this day and age.

And on many, many other services. I'm not sure what your point is?
 

Islineclear3_1

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Wandsworth Common is on a curve with a bridge to the north of the station - therefore a tight clearance indeed.

I remember 2 EPB's having their windows barred for the tight tunnels on the NLL in about 1985 and some of the DEMU's and main line slammers due to the tight clearances in Oxted tunnel so barring windows is certainly not new. Those old enough to remember the LMR 501's also had barred windows.
 

EssexCommuter

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And on many, many other services. I'm not sure what your point is?

My point is that it is very easy to fully open windows and lean out, and that to boast of central door locking is really rather pathetic in terms of safety.

In 2016, we should not have to hang out of windows to open doors.
 

J-2739

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My point is that it is very easy to fully open windows and lean out, and that to boast of central door locking is really rather pathetic in terms of safety.

In 2016, we should not have to hang out of windows to open doors.

More so, people shouldn't put their heads out of a moving train, full stop.
 

EssexCommuter

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More so, people shouldn't put their heads out of a moving train, full stop.

They shouldn't, I agree. But the fact people have to put their bodies out of trains to open the doors means accidents such as this are likely. People will always get up ahead of their stop. Personally I don't, but I also don't think people should have to hang out of windows to open the doors.
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I think the point was that welding it shut might not be an option.

Exactly. You can't weld shut a window that is the only means of alighting a train.
 

yorksrob

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They shouldn't, I agree. But the fact people have to put their bodies out of trains to open the doors means accidents such as this are likely. People will always get up ahead of their stop. Personally I don't, but I also don't think people should have to hang out of windows to open the doors.

People don't have to "hang out" of the window to open the door. It's quite easy to drop your arm down without anything else going out of the envelope of the train.
 

EssexCommuter

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People don't have to "hang out" of the window to open the door. It's quite easy to drop your arm down without anything else going out of the envelope of the train.

Correct, if you're like you and me and are used to these types of trains. The people who get up early are those who aren't.
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This window on the 442 isn't on a passenger door.

Then the chance of this happening is greater on those that have drop slide windows on passenger doors.
 

Cowley

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As others have said, sympathies to all involved. Very sad.
Is the person involved possibly an enthusiast? I can't work out why anyone would lean out of a window that far.
 

Philip Phlopp

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Then the chance of this happening is greater on those that have drop slide windows on passenger doors.

Yes. This will cease to be an issue given the type of unit involved is currently being withdrawn, and other types with droplights will be withdrawn prior to the 2020 PRM-TSI deadline.

It's a known issue and one the industry is trying to resolve just as quickly as it possibly can.
 

najaB

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Correct, if you're like you and me and are used to these types of trains. The people who get up early are those who aren't.
Those are the same people who usually expect the doors to open automatically and often have to be told to open the window and reach outside after the train has been stopped for a few seconds.
 

yorksrob

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Very sad incident. This incident is just another reason why the 442s (along with all other remaining MK2 / MK3 / HST / Locomotive Hauled stock) should have been withdrawn years ago (i know a lot of people will probably disagree with me). Gatwick Express should have kept the suitable 460s. The windows on these 442s should have been locked shut. But i have seen them left wide open many times.
 
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J-2739

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Very sad incident. This incident is just another reason why the 442s (along with all other remaining MK2 / MK3 / HST / Locomotive Hauled stock) should have been withdrawn years ago (i know a lot of people will probably disagree with me). Gatwick Express should have kept the suitable 460s. The windows on these 442s should have been locked shut. But i have seen them left wide open many times.

They are getting displaced by the new 387's. But to be honest, if this didn't happen, I still think they shouldn't go to the trouble of replacing them, just because of one fatality. Instead, the opening windows should be replaced with sealed windows instead.
 

MCR247

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Thoughts are with the family and those involved.

The words "dead horse" and "flogging" come to mind about anyone trying to shove 442s to other franchises now.
 

bramling

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Thoughts are with the family and those involved.

The words "dead horse" and "flogging" come to mind about anyone trying to shove 442s to other franchises now.

A sense of proportion is required here.

There may well be plenty of valid reasons why the class 442 won't be used elsewhere, however one isolated incident involving one droplight window, which could easily have bars fitted if deemed desirable, definitely isn't such a reason.

At the end of the day, tragic though the incident is, choosing to lean out of a window is one's own choice, and is a calculated risk. I certainly would not expect major expense to be incurred eradicating a "risk" which is basically non existant if one does not choose to lean out. I'd prefer any money to go towards level crossing safety instead, which for me is a far more deserving issue.

If a knee-jerk reaction to this incident results in a major push to eradicate any window where there's any possibility of leaning out (basically a comparatively small fleet comprising 442s, HSTs and MK3s - any others?), I'd be more concerned about preserved railways, where just about every vehicle has such windows in some form or another. Many enthusiasts do enjoy leaning out, and evidently it's not been a major issue over many years as otherwise some form of action would have already been taken.
 
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the sniper

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A number of people have questioned or suggested that the deceased could have been an enthusiast hanging out of the window, or referred to this incident as an accident, but to me this seems to be ignoring the more obvious possibility that it could be a suicide. With this in mind I'm somewhat surprised by the way that the media have revelled in reporting this story. Slow news day?

I have no idea what happened, but I don't think anybody should jump to conclusions, particularly just because a 442 is involved.
 

SpacePhoenix

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Can the drop-light window be modified easily to be able to be locked shut with a T-key?
 

TheEdge

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A number of people have questioned or suggested that the deceased could have been an enthusiast hanging out of the window, or referred to this incident as an accident, but to me this seems to be ignoring the more obvious possibility that it could be a suicide.

It seems very complex for a suicide. Its not absolutely unknown for suicides from droplights but going to the effort of finding the one type of stock in the south east still with droplights (on the ever dropping amount of diagrams they do) to jump out of seems unlikely when jumping under a train is far easier.
 
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