Introduction of connecting bus Stranraer station to Cairnryan ports

[feline1]

Pardon my ignorance, but why will it be faster to disembark at Girvan station, re-embark on a coach and drive to the ferry than it would be to stay on the train to Stranraer? Is there some kind of speed restriction on the rest of the line or summat?

 

[WestCountry]

Pardon my ignorance, but why will it be faster to disembark at Girvan station, re-embark on a coach and drive to the ferry than it would be to stay on the train to Stranraer? Is there some kind of speed restriction on the rest of the line or summat?

The ferry terminal hasn't been at Stranraer for some time, so the coach trip to Cairnryan would be necessary from either. Stranraer is further south than Cairnryan, so ferry passengers would be backtracking, and the A77 is rather more direct than the wibbly line from Girvan anyway.

 

[feline1]

The ferry terminal hasn't been at Stranraer for some time, so the coach trip to Cairnryan would be necessary from either. Stranraer is further south than Cairnryan, so ferry passengers would be backtracking, and the A77 is rather more direct than the wibbly line from Girvan anyway.

Yes but it is very slow to get that many passengers on a conventional style coach, where they all have to put their luggage in the boot, then board one by one. It can take half an hour just to get everybody on! It can also take 5 or 10 minutes to get out of the carpark at Ayr station and out onto the A77 out the town, if there's busy traffic.

If instead they can get by rail to Stranraer station, they could be shuttled to the Cairnryan ferry port (a mere 6 miles away) on multiple airport-style shuttle busses, which have several big doors and oodles of luggage space inside, so passengers all just barge on in the space of a couple of minutes.

Moreover, whilst the A77 may in principle be "straighter" than the line to Girvan > Stranraer, it is still the sort of road that has a lot of bends and hills, and it's single carriageway, and a big coach can't realisitically go faster than about 45 mph on it. Traffic is often moving in queues on that road if any slow vehicle gets in the way.

 

[QJ]

Yes but it is very slow to get that many passengers on a conventional style coach, where they all have to put their luggage in the boot, then board one by one. It can take half an hour just to get everybody on!

I have to question your inference that it is very slow to load a conventional road coach. Having had plenty of experience with rail replacement services I have yet to take anywhere near 30 minutes to load 49 people and their luggage.

Getting out of Ayr car park may well be a different issue of course. I am sure an allowance is made for such potential delays. Back when I used to catch the ferry I had the pleasure of class 26, 40 and 47 hauled trains to Stranraer and a quick hop onto the boat. Sadly those days of seemless connections are long gone as the ferry and rail are no longer linked.

An advantage of bussing people to the Cairnryan ferry port from Girvan or Ayr is the fact that the rail service to and from Stranraer is not tied to the ferry timetable. The service could be more attuned to the needs of the local populace single line capacity restrictions allowing (if only). Of course, on the flip side, the rail service could be run at inconvenient times to the local needs in order that a case can be made for withdrawing the service. Then poeple can be bussed to Stranraer as well as Cairnryan. Job sorted.

 

[feline1]

I have to question your inference that it is very slow to load a conventional road coach. Having had plenty of experience with rail replacement services I have yet to take anywhere near 30 minutes to load 49 people and their luggage.

A coach has one door, allowing one passenger to access at a time.
It's always going to be slower to board than a train carriage with multiple doors.
Also the passengers have to hand their luggage to the driver one at a time for him to stow it in the baggage compartment.
Also, at Ayr, all this has to take place in the carpark with no cover from the rain!
I've been there, in the rain, taking close to half an hour to get everyone one. It was dire.

 

[kylemore]

A coach has one door, allowing one passenger to access at a time.
It's always going to be slower to board than a train carriage with multiple doors.
Also the passengers have to hand their luggage to the driver one at a time for him to stow it in the baggage compartment.
Also, at Ayr, all this has to take place in the carpark with no cover from the rain!
I've been there, in the rain, taking close to half an hour to get everyone one. It was dire.

I also have direct experience of managing bus and coach operations at a busy city centre bus station and 30mins is totally over the top, 10 mins tops and that includes ticket checks, less for the numbers likely to be using the service.

Also there is no reason why buses similar to to that which Lothian use on their Edinburgh Airport shuttle cannot be used. All internal luggage space and semi-coach seating perfectly acceptable for the likely Girvan - Cairnryan journey time of 40-45mins.

This would allow at least part of the Ayr - Stranraer line to retain some of the Irish traffic although as far as surface transport is concerned it will struggle against through coach services from Glasgow, Edinburgh and other points direct to Belfast bus station.

 

[Hadders]

If instead they can get by rail to Stranraer station, they could be shuttled to the Cairnryan ferry port (a mere 6 miles away) on multiple airport-style shuttle busses, which have several big doors and oodles of luggage space inside, so passengers all just barge on in the space of a couple of minutes.

Just how many people do you think travel of sailrail tickets? I've done this journey several times (in the height of summer) and the coach has never been more than a third full.

As rail enthusiasts we'd all like to avoid the coach but we have to accept that it's not going to happen. The time taken to board/disembark from the coach is simply not an issue, in my experience.

 

[feline1]

Just how many people do you think travel of sailrail tickets? I've done this journey several times (in the height of summer) and the coach has never been more than a third full.

The time taken to board/disembark from the coach is simply not an issue, in my experience.

And I've done the journey twice since the port moved to Cairnryan, at Christmas. The coach was always full, and on one of the occasions, it actually required two of them to fit everybody coming off the boat in.

Those coaches take, what, about 50 people?
If each one takes only 30 seconds to get their luggage stowed and clamber aboard, that's 25 minutes!

I'm not making this stuff up to be awkward, I'm speaking from my experience of the trip since the port moved.

 

[reb0118]

I had two railsail passengers on my train today. Both for Belfast. I also had a few others connecting with other ferries viz. Wemyss Bay - Rothesay; Gourock - Dunoon; & Ardrossan - Brodick.

 

[Altnabreac]

If the not unachievable target of an hourly Glasgow to Girvan service can be reached - even better with an el cheapo Paisley Canal style electrification - then the connecting coach could operate from there. You would be on the boat having your tea by the time the bus from Stranraer got to Cairnryan (electric or otherwise)!

Such an hourly service would vastly increase usage if experience elsewhere is anything to go by - indeed with electrification you could even make the Girvan train an extension of the hourly Edinburgh - Ayr service just announced!

As an example of lines that have survived their roles as ferry connectors look no further than the Kyle of Lochalsh line and the Mallaig extension of the WHR although in both cases access to fish traffic was also a factor.

The Kyle line now has no ferry connection traffic and although Mallaig will still have minimal traffic to Armadale and the Small Isles it doesn't survive because of that.

I certainly agree that this is the most likely option to revitalise the line. A fast hourly electric service from Girvan to Glasgow would be ideal and provide much enhanced connections and capacity.

You could then run a 2 hourly DMU shuttle service from Girvan - Stranraer. This unit could be based in Stranraer overnight with a weekly swap for heavier maintenance which would also allow some direct - Glasgow - Stranraer services at weekends.

I realise this option isn't popular with some on here but the change at Girvan could be a simple move along the same platform if the southern platform in Girvan is suitably extended and a move to "one Engine in Steam" south of Girvan in normal operation would allow simplification of the signalling and reduce operating costs making the railway more viable south of Stranraer.

This sort of cross platform interchange can work really well so long as services are properly timed (and held!) to connect.

As far as ferry connections are concerned, Bus transfer times from Girvan - Cairnryan would be in the region of 35-45 minutes compared to 15-20 minutes from Stranraer to Cairnryan.

With Girvan - Stranraer taking 50 minutes by train you'll be in Cairnryan much quicker using this option. As discussed before the reason for the very early Ayr departure times for the Stena coach appears to be a combination of trying to run the service using a minimum number of coaches (which a Girvan switch would help address) and ensuring plenty of check in time at Cairnryan (which it wouldn't).

Given this insistence on passengers arriving early if coming by train and coach is a Stena policy this would also be required even if Sail Rail moved back to Stranraer and used buses from there. Saying the service is quicker via Stranraer because you can remove all the slack Stena want is dishonest in my view as it seems likely they would want passengers to arrive at least 50-60 mins prior to departure even if coming via Stranraer. This is backed up by the direct coach services which arrive at Cairnryan 50, 50 and 60 minutes before Ferry departure respectively.

This means a via Stranraer Sailrail service would need to leave Ayr a minimum of 2 hours 40 minutes prior to departure (80 minutes on train, 15 mins connection for Cairnryan bus, 15 minute bus journey, 50 minutes pre departure check in.

At the moment the (badly timed to minimise coach usage) Ayr rail arrival times for Sailrail are between 3 hours 10 minutes and 2 hours 40 minutes before Ferry departure, with the benefit of multiple fast trains. In the opposite direction Ayr is much faster than Stranraer would be with passengers on trains at Ayr within 2 hours of the ferry's arrival at Cairnryan.

Girvan would allow departure from Ayr 2 hours 20 minutes prior to departure (30 minutes on train, 15 mins connection for Cairnryan bus, 45 minute bus journey, 50 minutes pre departure check in.)

I personally don't see the concern with loading times on coaches versus buses but if there were an issue you could easily run shuttle buses from Girvan instead of coaches.
Whatever option is chosen its tricky for Sailrail to compete with direct coaches but an electric hourly service from Glasgow to Girvan is probably the best bet.

 

[AndyW33]

I don't see the coach boarding times quoted by some posters as relating in any way to this type of operation. Don't forget that unlike most scheduled coach services, all the passengers get on in one place and are all going to get off together. This means that luggage doesn't have to be sorted by destination, ticket checks are far simpler and no tickets need to be sold on board for last minute passengers as Scotrail or Stena have ticket offices at each end.
The previous end-to-end rail service used Class 156s which hold around 150 seated passengers and have 4 single-width doors, so one door per 38 passengers, who have to carry their own luggage on board and find stowage for it. A road coach has one single width door for around 50 passengers who don't carry their own luggage onboard, so why the actual boarding time would be dramatically worse than the 156 is puzzling.
Of course one reason might be that the 156 was never anywhere near full, which rather bears out Stena's logic.

 

[tbtc]

When all is said and done doesn't this debate essentially come down to crying over spilt milk?

Would it not be better to concentrate on developing a future for the Stranraer line?

Maybe it should have been different with constraints being placed on low fare airlines and Stena forced to remain at Stranraer or nationalised if they put the two fingers up to that! But we don't live in a world where that is possible, we have to live in this one.

Best post on the thread, I reckon.

No point in arguing about the "ideal world", got to deal with reality

The point is that it's a small flow in the grand scheme of things, and any public investment has to show a real benefit.

Clearly Stena are not concerned about such a tiny market, and Scotrail can probably find a better use for their rolling stock, so where is the money to subsidise better rail/sea links going to come from?

Agreed.

Both parties have much bigger issues to worry about.

I can't understand your issue with the data. The point I was making was that the numbers were growing

Dead cat bounce?

In blunt terms there is no real future for the Stranraer line south of Girvan unless a number of things happen

No politician would dare see any station cut - even a pathetically used station like Breich is still open - the Stranraer line will continue for the sake of the seventysomething passengers a day.

If the not unachievable target of an hourly Glasgow to Girvan service can be reached - even better with an el cheapo Paisley Canal style electrification - then the connecting coach could operate from there. You would be on the boat having your tea by the time the bus from Stranraer got to Cairnryan (electric or otherwise)!

Such an hourly service would vastly increase usage if experience elsewhere is anything to go by - indeed with electrification you could even make the Girvan train an extension of the hourly Edinburgh - Ayr service just announced!

Good to see mention of Girvan - often overlooked in such threads - despite it getting well over twice the numbers that Stranraer gets (124,000 > 45,000).

As an example of lines that have survived their roles as ferry connectors look no further than the Kyle of Lochalsh line and the Mallaig extension of the WHR although in both cases access to fish traffic was also a factor.

The Kyle line now has no ferry connection traffic and although Mallaig will still have minimal traffic to Armadale and the Small Isles it doesn't survive because of that.

True.

And the lines survived, despite the lack of ferry market.

Yes but it is very slow to get that many passengers on a conventional style coach, where they all have to put their luggage in the boot, then board one by one. It can take half an hour just to get everybody on! It can also take 5 or 10 minutes to get out of the carpark at Ayr station and out onto the A77 out the town, if there's busy traffic.

If instead they can get by rail to Stranraer station, they could be shuttled to the Cairnryan ferry port (a mere 6 miles away) on multiple airport-style shuttle busses, which have several big doors and oodles of luggage space inside, so passengers all just barge on in the space of a couple of minutes

You really want the answer to be "Stranraer", don't you?

Why else would you suggest that Ayr could only offer one "conventional" coach (that apparently takes half an hour to load) whilst Stranraer could offer multiple coaches each with multiple doors?

Is there something unique to Stranraer that means only it can offer such coaches, or are you just coming up with two skewed examples to give the answer that you want?

Those coaches take, what, about 50 people?
If each one takes only 30 seconds to get their luggage stowed and clamber aboard, that's 25 minutes!

I'm not making this stuff up to be awkward

Someone should tell Ulsterbus, Stagecoach, Citylink and National Express that it takes half an hour to load a coach - am sure they'd be concerned!

 

[CallySleeper]

If you think waving goodbye to 60% of your market is good business then no I wont come to your shop! It is the railway/Scottish Government that wouldn't do the deal not Stena and that is what is bonkers.

Where did you get '60%' from?!

I can't understand your issue with the data. The point I was making was that the numbers were growing in contrast to Stena's which were declining. I never said that VOLUMES were large. But there again the volume of people using rail is tiny as a proportion of total journeys is it not? So using your argument why invest in rail?

I'm not sure you understand why you're using some data, or even how you're contributing to this thread. If you do want to make a point, I'd start off by contributing with some modern statistics, not ones which are over six years and make absolutely no difference to what is happening today. I struggle to take someone seriously not only if they can't make relevant contributions but also when they call themselves "Sammy the seal".

To start you off, here's an article with some figures which should help:

[In the first year of operations at Cairnryan]: "Stena Line have seen the new route deliver a strong nine per cent year on year increase in passenger numbers and a 60 percent increase in freight volumes."​

We also find a comment on rail & sail:

"“The numbers using the rail-link bus are slightly down compared with when we had the direct train service from Stranraer, however this is in line with our expectations. The Express coach services have been the main beneficiaries of this traffic and have increased their schedule and capacity as a result,” he added."​

So it transpires that people would rather use the likes of Citylink because they don't have to change coaches, which is fair enough. It's not that passengers have been lost since the move, they have changed their mode of transport. Though, the journey time is not much different - the one through coach from Edinburgh, say takes about the same time to Cairnryan as two trains and a coach does.

Speaking of the coach...

Pardon my ignorance, but why will it be faster to disembark at Girvan station, re-embark on a coach and drive to the ferry than it would be to stay on the train to Stranraer? Is there some kind of speed restriction on the rest of the line or summat?

The railway from Girvan to Stranraer is 37 miles long and takes 50 minutes (not including transfer to the port).
The road from Girvan to Cairnryan is 23 miles and takes 35 minutes by coach.

So, it's clearly a lot quicker to bus at least as far as Girvan.

Such an hourly service [from Ayr to Girvan] would vastly increase usage if experience elsewhere is anything to go by - indeed with electrification you could even make the Girvan train an extension of the hourly Edinburgh - Ayr service just announced!

Has this been formally predicted though? Usage on an hourly Ayr - Girvan service could well increase, but it's definitely not guaranteed I'd have thought.

Depending on the timing of this service, the ferry link coach may well just be better running to Ayr if connections are better timed there.

I've done the journey twice since the port moved to Cairnryan, at Christmas.

Herein I think lies your problem, as I suspected. Your experiences regarding this service are based purely on travelling at only one and the busiest time of year. You cannot surely comment accurately and reliably on this service as a whole, during the rest of the year, if you have not travelled during that period of time. It is not possible to infer accurate conclusions, as you are doing, when in fact you haven't actually experienced it first hand. It's like me saying, I visited Brighton beach once, and it was absolutely packed. It was during the summer that I went and I assume it must be like that all year round.

Yes but it is very slow to get that many passengers on a conventional style coach, where they all have to put their luggage in the boot, then board one by one. It can take half an hour just to get everybody on! It can also take 5 or 10 minutes to get out of the carpark at Ayr station and out onto the A77 out the town, if there's busy traffic.

A coach has one door, allowing one passenger to access at a time.
It's always going to be slower to board than a train carriage with multiple doors.
Also the passengers have to hand their luggage to the driver one at a time for him to stow it in the baggage compartment.
Also, at Ayr, all this has to take place in the carpark with no cover from the rain!
I've been there, in the rain, taking close to half an hour to get everyone one. It was dire.

(Do passengers load their own luggage or not?)

In your limited experience then, it may well have taken that long. Travel during the rest of the year and you'll find, as others have said, that you would not get the same thing happening. Coaches are rarely as busy as they are at Christmas, neither do passengers boarding take an average of 30 seconds to do so.

By your observations, it is quicker to load a vehicle with multiple doors than it is a coach with one. I'd also like to advise that, unlike your seasonal experience, at other times of the year, passengers are not all trying to board at the same time. So this doesn't happen.

I'd also wager that you've never seen how long it takes National Express coaches to load, or indeed Citylink/Ulsterbus services at the ferry terminals. Next time you make the journey to/from Belfast by boat I hope it isn't at Christmas, I also hope you see that it doesn't take other coach operators half an hour (and as you will see, as I said above, their services are a lot busier!)

You said also that it took you 90 minutes to make this journey. Again, make this journey more frequently and at other times of the year, as myself and others have done, and you will see what we mean when we claim that 70-75 minutes is actually the norm - including leaving Ayr during the evening rush hour.

If instead they can get by rail to Stranraer station, they could be shuttled to the Cairnryan ferry port (a mere 6 miles away) on multiple airport-style shuttle busses, which have several big doors and oodles of luggage space inside, so passengers all just barge on in the space of a couple of minutes.

This isn't an airport operation. While taking longer than the direct route, I'm not sure it would even be very comfortable? Also, are those buses publically road legal?

Moreover, whilst the A77 may in principle be "straighter" than the line to Girvan > Stranraer, it is still the sort of road that has a lot of bends and hills, and it's single carriageway, and a big coach can't realisitically go faster than about 45 mph on it. Traffic is often moving in queues on that road if any slow vehicle gets in the way.

It's not all single carriageway. The coach does go faster than 45 mph, though the speed limit I think is not much higher at 60.

 

[Argosy]

Of course one reason might be that the 156 was never anywhere near full, which rather bears out Stena's logic.

Clearly you never travelled on a Friday then!

It was regularly full at such times. From experience the lightly loaded trains were:
The 0921 arrival into Stranraer 5-10 passengers, 2325 departure 0 -3 passengers.
The 1000 service was well used too as that had a mixture of locals and ferry passengers on.

What posters not familiar with the line need to bear in mind is the relative demands. Stena passengers accounted for the majority of those using the railway to/from Stranraer. It matters not whether the train was full or not you have to look at in relation to local usage.

As for the electrification to Girvan option that would lead to line closure south of Girvan. It is also not practicable. Why provide a bespoke diesel service for a longer train journey a more expensive train journey and then obligate people to change at Girvan onto it. It is the same argument that you use for the current coach arrangement in reverse. People will just drive to Girvan! It is 45/50 minutes by road as apposed to 52/55 by rail, there will always be more services from Girvan. And of course Girvan is in the SPT area, Stranraer is not.

What would be better is not electrification but bi-mode trains. As a UK gauge vehicle is being designed, a regional railways variant might be a sensible way forward for those lines that do not justify electrification. One can then take advantage of the journey option you describe but given ScotRail's current electric offering I wager that the journey would take longer than it does now!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

And the lines survived, despite the lack of ferry market.

You are forgetting one thing. Skye.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It's not all single carriageway. The coach does go faster than 45 mph, though the speed limit I think is not much higher at 60.

The 60% referred to was the percentage of pasengers using Stranraer in 2010/11 (the last full financial year of ferry traffic) who used the ferry. Since the ORR data did not include Rail & Sail the real figure that year at Stranraer was not 57,424 but 102,400.

In terms of argument I would have thought someone as clearly expert as yourself would know that the maximum speed for coaches on the stretch of road in question is 50mph not 60mph. However as the Stena coach is known to exceed the speed limit you may well have observed the vehicle exceeding 60mph.

And of course perhaps you could tell us which piece of the A77 is dual carriageway south of the Bankfield Roundabout? So far as I am aware the Maybole by-pass has not opened yet. The Stena coaches turn off at the Bankfield Roundabout to proceed in and out of Ayr though some use the A79 Maybole Road.

As far as Stena's view on using Stranraer they last commented publicly on this in October 2011 saying to Russell Brown MP and Cllr Willie Scobie that they would give serious consideration to using Stranraer instead of Ayr as their rail interchange if services from the station are improved.

Whether they would or not is a moot point.

The real odd thing of course is that providing an express coach service between Scrabster and Inverness was vetoed in the Scottish Strategic Transport Projects review as "undermining the rail service" despite it taking nearly an hour quicker. Yet the same logic does not apply at Cairnryan where the road advantage is nothing like as great. Funny old world.

 

[kylemore]

You are forgetting one thing. Skye.

.

The main function of the Kyle terminus was to connect with the Stornoway Mail Steamer which it did until the introduction of RoRo in the early 70s when the mainland terminal moved to Ullapool for much the same (yes not exactly the same) reasons Stena have moved to Cairnryan. The other Mail Steamer service from Kyle via Portree to Harris and North Uist had ceased long before then.

 

[Greenback]

No point in arguing about the "ideal world", got to deal with reality

That's no fun! Like, if someone wants to travel by the old rail and sea route from London to Paris, even though the Eurostar has more or less destroyed that market, then it should still be possible to get a train to Dover Western Docks, walk across to a ferry, alight at Calais and walk straight on to Calais Maritime for a fast train to Paris.

Never mind that it is slower, more expensive and pretty pointless to do this now, because in the real world things have moved on and hardly anyone wants to do this now. I and 1000 others a year want to, so it should be possible!

I'm afraid that some people just seem oblivious tot he real world!

No politician would dare see any station cut - even a pathetically used station like Breich is still open - the Stranraer line will continue for the sake of the seventysomething passengers a day.

I agree that the Stranraer line will not be closed.

You really want the answer to be "Stranraer", don't you?

Why else would you suggest that Ayr could only offer one "conventional" coach (that apparently takes half an hour to load) whilst Stranraer could offer multiple coaches each with multiple doors?

Is there any objective evidence, anywhere, that supports the idea that training people to Stranraer and then bussing them to Cairnryan would generate any more custom than what there is now?

Is there something unique to Stranraer that means only it can offer such coaches, or are you just coming up with two skewed examples to give the answer that you want?

Well, maybe it's just because the ferries used to run from there?

Someone should tell Ulsterbus, Stagecoach, Citylink and National Express that it takes half an hour to load a coach - am sure they'd be concerned!

On my few coach journeys it hasn't taken anywhere near that time. My last departure from London Victoria loaded a full coach in about nine minutes, including loading the luggage.

I know, because the coach didn't pull in until roughly 14.22, and we made an almost on time departure, about a minute late at 14.31, though I adm,it I wasn't timin it particularly closely.

Where did you get '60%' from?!

I'd like to know the answer to that myself.

I'm not sure you understand why you're using some data, or even how you're contributing to this thread. If you do want to make a point, I'd start off by contributing with some modern statistics, not ones which are over six years and make absolutely no difference to what is happening today. I struggle to take someone seriously not only if they can't make relevant contributions but also when they call themselves "Sammy the seal".

I don't think the last part is really necessary, but the rest is sensible enough.

So it transpires that people would rather use the likes of Citylink because they don't have to change coaches, which is fair enough. It's not that passengers have been lost since the move, they have changed their mode of transport. Though, the journey time is not much different - the one through coach from Edinburgh, say takes about the same time to Cairnryan as two trains and a coach does.

Personally, I'd still choose the train, but clearly many others do prefer the lack of faffing about changing between modes. Maybe the conenctions could be improved, but I still think that the coaches would be more popular.

Herein I think lies your problem, as I suspected. Your experiences regarding this service are based purely on travelling at only one and the busiest time of year. You cannot surely comment accurately and reliably on this service as a whole, during the rest of the year, if you have not travelled during that period of time. It is not possible to infer accurate conclusions, as you are doing, when in fact you haven't actually experienced it first hand. It's like me saying, I visited Brighton beach once, and it was absolutely packed. It was during the summer that I went and I assume it must be like that all year round.

I agree. Declaring that there was enough custom during the busy Christams travel period for two coaches, is not indicative that there will be more than a handful of passengers on a Tuesday in February. There have always been seasonal variations, and one simply cannot base an argument around usage on one of the busiest annual travel days for all modes of transport.

The main function of the Kyle terminus was to connect with the Stornoway Mail Steamer which it did until the introduction of RoRo in the early 70s when the mainland terminal moved to Ullapool for much the same (yes not exactly the same) reasons Stena have moved to Cairnryan. The other Mail Steamer service from Kyle via Portree to Harris and North Uist had ceased long before then.

It's quite an interesting comparison between the Stranraer line and the Kyle/Wick lines. The latter two have received far greater publicity than the former, and I think the future of the line to Stranraer lies with developing the tourist market for the region, as well as providing a vital link for residents in the local area to be able to access the rail network of the rest of Scotland and the UK.

I don't doubt that there will be difficult decisions to be made regarding timetables, fare levels and the like, but if the correct decisions are made, I see no reason why the route can't survive and maybe even prosper.

Though it's sad that the ferries have gone, they are as much part of history now as the sleepers and direct trains to London. We have to accept that tiems change and things move on in the real world. We need to look to the future rather try to resurrect the past.

 

[feline1]

You really want the answer to be "Stranraer", don't you?

No, what I'd *really* like the answer to be was "obviously as part of the integrated national transport plan, when we upgraded and moved the ferry port, we extended the rail line too and built a new station integrated into the port".
More generally, when I make a rail journey, I don't want to get off the train, stand in a carpark in the rain and get on a bus.

Why else would you suggest that Ayr could only offer one "conventional" coach (that apparently takes half an hour to load)

Well, OBVIOUSLY I'm lying about my experiences of the SailRail route since the port move, and the notion that it's a "shambles" compared to what it was before is just some perverse fantasy of mine.:roll:
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Herein I think lies your problem, as I suspected. Your experiences regarding this service are based purely on travelling at only one and the busiest time of year. You cannot surely comment accurately and reliably on this service as a whole, during the rest of the year, if you have not travelled during that period of time. It is not possible to infer accurate conclusions, as you are doing, when in fact you haven't actually experienced it first hand. It's like me saying, I visited Brighton beach once, and it was absolutely packed. It was during the summer that I went and I assume it must be like that all year round.

Well if the forum moderators will permit me to mimic your condescending tone, I think you demonstrate quite clearly how you haven't got a clue how to run a business. A small hotel in Torquay might suit you, but this is an international transport link, not a borstal.
*IF* you visited Brighton on a bank holiday Monday on Summer and it was not just "absolutely packed" but TOTALLY SHAMBOLIC AND DYSFUNCTIONAL (e.g. hardly any working public toilets so you had to queue for an hour for a pee, broken glass and dog poo all over the prom, streets all blocked by gas works, shops shut at 5, etc etc) and you said "this is awful! How do Brighton & Hove City Council get away with this?! It's destroying the local tourist industry!" and I just retorted "Look, it's usually fine from September to April, there's no problem at all then! you just came at a stupidly busy time of year! It wouldn't be cost effective to have summer levels of service for most of the year! And most people go to Spain these days anyway!" that would be ridiculous. And it would deter people bother to come again, and businesses would progressively end up closing, and in the end Brighton would look like bloody Hastings.

If the passenger numbers warrant it at Xmas, why don't they put more trains and coaches on then? Is that beyond the wit of man?

 

[johnnychips]

*IF* you visited Brighton on a bank holiday Monday on Summer and it was not just "absolutely packed" but TOTALLY SHAMBOLIC AND DYSFUNCTIONAL (e.g. hardly any working public toilets so you had to queue for an hour for a pee, broken glass and dog poo all over the prom, streets all blocked by gas works, shops shut at 5, etc etc) and you said "this is awful! How do Brighton & Hove City Council get away with this?! It's destroying the local tourist industry!" and I just retorted "Look, it's usually fine from September to April, there's no problem at all then! you just came at a stupidly busy time of year! It wouldn't be cost effective to have summer levels of service for most of the year! And most people go to Spain these days anyway!" that would be ridiculous. And it would deter people bother to come again, and businesses would progressively end up closing, and in the end Brighton would look like bloody Hastings.

If the passenger numbers warrant it at Xmas, why don't they put more trains and coaches on then? Is that beyond the wit of man?

I think the inconveniences in travel you experienced around SW Scotland, that one would expect around Christmas anywhere in the UK, are not comparable with the Trip Advisor nightmare you envisage in Brighton.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Well if the forum moderators will permit me to mimic your condescending tone, I think you demonstrate quite clearly how you haven't got a clue how to run a business. A small hotel in Torquay might suit you, but this is an international transport link, not a borstal.

Now then. Let's not see personalities start showing their worst side in this debate. Everyone is entitled to their own point of view, as a visit to the Football thread of the General Discussion forum often reveals.

 

[Carlisle]

Interesting debate ,i can't help thinking a tiny fraction of the HS2 budget would restore the old military railway to Cairnryan but not knowing the area very well or usage other than whats on here I'll guess the answer would be the number of foot passengers using a potential train would never justify the expense

 

[Argosy]

Is there any objective evidence, anywhere, that supports the idea that training people to Stranraer and then bussing them to Cairnryan would generate any more custom than what there is now?

An extensive survey was undertaken in 2011. This showed why people didn't use the coach/bus and went by rail.

The data indicated that the coach/bus was uncomfortable, you couldn't easily move about, go to the toilet, drink (!), was too expensive and too slow (scource SAYLSA).

Bearing in mind Ulsterbus/Citylink run the same number of services to the ferries now as they did in 2010/11 what evidence is there that people would not return to the train? The main issue is that they don't want to change modes half way at Ayr onto a rail service that more times than not involves negotiating barriers with luggage and humping it over the bridge to platform 4.

The 60% was the ferry passenger percentage of the total number of passengers using Stranraer in 2010/11. The 45,000 Rail & Sail passengers were not included in the ORR data and part of the R&S data included about 14% of ferry passengers who re-booked at Stranraer (scources ORR, Stena).

On my few coach journeys it hasn't taken anywhere near that time. My last departure from London Victoria loaded a full coach in about nine minutes, including loading the luggage.

I used to operate buses and coaches and still do. 10 mins is about correct for something like Nat Ex/Citylink

It's quite an interesting comparison between the Stranraer line and the Kyle/Wick lines. The latter two have received far greater publicity than the former, and I think the future of the line to Stranraer lies with developing the tourist market for the region, as well as providing a vital link for residents in the local area to be able to access the rail network of the rest of Scotland and the UK.

I don't doubt that there will be difficult decisions to be made regarding timetables, fare levels and the like, but if the correct decisions are made, I see no reason why the route can't survive and maybe even prosper.

Though it's sad that the ferries have gone, they are as much part of history now as the sleepers and direct trains to London. We have to accept that tiems change and things move on in the real world. We need to look to the future rather try to resurrect the past.

What tourist market? I note you and Calleysleeper seem to think the tourists are sitting waiting in the wings to be conveyed by rail. Well they are not. Indeed unlike the Kyle line but more akin to the Far North Line the Stranraer line has the least seasonal fluctuaton in numbers of any of the scenic Scottish railways (source NR Scottish RUS). 75% of its passengers are local (scource SAYLSA). Tourism accounts for about 6% of total throughput IIRC. Wigtownshire (where Stranraer lies within Dumfries & Galloway) is seeing declining tourist numbers. It is particularly poor when it comes to day visitors. It attracts most of its visitors from England who stay over for a couple of days. And before you ask about the data, this came from studies undertaken by Destination D&G and the Chamber of Commerce although I apologise in advance that there is no sworn affidavit to confirm that.

The local RTP and CRP are wishing to see a timetable that maintains connectivity to the outside world. Indeed SWestrans (the RTP) have stated that they want to see the ferry traffic conveyed by rail. You see what many on here don't get/understand/overlook is that the railway south of Girvan needs the ferry traffic, to effectively cross subsidise any developing tourism market. However the ferries don't need the railway. The concept of running a shuttle to Girvan is bonkers. Many of the scenic railways down south are seeking at least one through train but there are those on here advocating the abolition of them all! Indeed it has been suggested the route becomes a quasi heritage railway.

Transport Scotland do their best to undermine the fares issue by flatly refusing to counternance a lower Stranraer fare and whilst there has been a reduction in fares outside the SPT area in Scotland as a result of a fare anomaly review which came into effect last May it is still cheaper if you are local to travel from Oban to Glasgow than Stranraer to Glasgow and the distances are virtually the same.

Oban return with Highland Rail card £14.50, Stranraer return £23.70 assuming leaving both at 8am returning at 6pm (scource ScotRail). Even buying the Highland Railcard (£8) in the first place makes it cheaper. It is this blatant discrmination that annoys locals. Furthermore you can travel to Oban for £1.80 if you are an SPT senior citizen residing in Argyle! Any wonder that Stranraer line supporters get fed up with this perpetual Highland rail bias?

 

[Hadders]

If the passenger numbers warrant it at Xmas, why don't they put more trains and coaches on then? Is that beyond the wit of man?

The did didn't they? You said there were two coaches put on, there's usually only one.

IIRC there was considerable travle disruption over Christmas affecting air flights (wasn't Gatwick effectively closed for a couple of days?) which may have caused more people to use sailrail at short notice due to the disruption, at what is already a busy time of year.

 

[Altnabreac]

An extensive survey was undertaken in 2011. This showed why people didn't use the coach/bus and went by rail.

The data indicated that the coach/bus was uncomfortable, you couldn't easily move about, go to the toilet, drink (!), was too expensive and too slow (scource SAYLSA).

Bearing in mind Ulsterbus/Citylink run the same number of services to the ferries now as they did in 2010/11 what evidence is there that people would not return to the train? The main issue is that they don't want to change modes half way at Ayr onto a rail service that more times than not involves negotiating barriers with luggage and humping it over the bridge to platform 4.

The 60% was the ferry passenger percentage of the total number of passengers using Stranraer in 2010/11. The 45,000 Rail & Sail passengers were not included in the ORR data and part of the R&S data included about 14% of ferry passengers who re-booked at Stranraer (scources ORR, Stena).




I used to operate buses and coaches and still do. 10 mins is about correct for something like Nat Ex/Citylink




What tourist market? I note you and Calleysleeper seem to think the tourists are sitting waiting in the wings to be conveyed by rail. Well they are not. Indeed unlike the Kyle line but more akin to the Far North Line the Stranraer line has the least seasonal fluctuaton in numbers of any of the scenic Scottish railways (source NR Scottish RUS). 75% of its passengers are local (scource SAYLSA). Tourism accounts for about 6% of total throughput IIRC. Wigtownshire (where Stranraer lies within Dumfries & Galloway) is seeing declining tourist numbers. It is particularly poor when it comes to day visitors. It attracts most of its visitors from England who stay over for a couple of days. And before you ask about the data, this came from studies undertaken by Destination D&G and the Chamber of Commerce although I apologise in advance that there is no sworn affidavit to confirm that.

The local RTP and CRP are wishing to see a timetable that maintains connectivity to the outside world. Indeed SWestrans (the RTP) have stated that they want to see the ferry traffic conveyed by rail. You see what many on here don't get/understand/overlook is that the railway south of Girvan needs the ferry traffic, to effectively cross subsidise any developing tourism market. However the ferries don't need the railway. The concept of running a shuttle to Girvan is bonkers. Many of the scenic railways down south are seeking at least one through train but there are those on here advocating the abolition of them all! Indeed it has been suggested the route becomes a quasi heritage railway.

Transport Scotland do their best to undermine the fares issue by flatly refusing to counternance a lower Stranraer fare and whilst there has been a reduction in fares outside the SPT area in Scotland as a result of a fare anomaly review which came into effect last May it is still cheaper if you are local to travel from Oban to Glasgow than Stranraer to Glasgow and the distances are virtually the same.

Oban return with Highland Rail card £14.50, Stranraer return £23.70 assuming leaving both at 8am returning at 6pm (scource ScotRail). Even buying the Highland Railcard (£8) in the first place makes it cheaper. It is this blatant discrmination that annoys locals. Furthermore you can travel to Oban for £1.80 if you are an SPT senior citizen residing in Argyle! Any wonder that Stranraer line supporters get fed up with this perpetual Highland rail bias?

The Fares issue to Stranraer does need addressing. Its partly a historic issue from the days of SPT where all internal Strathclyde fares were much cheaper than fares crossing the boundary (Glasgow -Shotts Off Peak return for example is £5.90 whereas Glasgow - Fauldhouse only a couple of miles further is £8.90 as its over the border. Same with Glasgow - Croy £4.70, Glasgow - Falkirk £10.50.)

However Dumfries and Galloway council have traditionally not subsidised fares or services so this is part of the explanation. Its not all down to bias by Scotrail / Central Belt etc. Concession returns in Argyll will be subsidised by Argyll & Bute council. No reason why D&G couldn't fund a similar scheme.

I still think ferry traffic is never coming back south of Girvan so the sooner supporters of the line start coming up with positive plans for the line involving local journeys and tourism the better. Moaning about ferry traffic being lost isn't going to achieve anything.

 

[pkkelly]

Transport Scotland do their best to undermine the fares issue by flatly refusing to counternance a lower Stranraer fare and whilst there has been a reduction in fares outside the SPT area in Scotland as a result of a fare anomaly review which came into effect last May it is still cheaper if you are local to travel from Oban to Glasgow than Stranraer to Glasgow and the distances are virtually the same.

Oban return with Highland Rail card £14.50, Stranraer return £23.70 assuming leaving both at 8am returning at 6pm (scource ScotRail). Even buying the Highland Railcard (£8) in the first place makes it cheaper. It is this blatant discrmination that annoys locals. Furthermore you can travel to Oban for £1.80 if you are an SPT senior citizen residing in Argyle! Any wonder that Stranraer line supporters get fed up with this perpetual Highland rail bias?

Er, this is somewhat unfair. The base fares to/from Stranraer were significantly lowered last year. Current single from Glasgow to Stranraer is £12.40 which is very cheap for a 101 mile journey. Prior to that the single was £22.40. (I do not know whether this reduction is permanent.) Return fares have also been significantly reduced. A single from Glasgow to Oban (same distance - 101 miles) is £23.10. On day returns to/from Glasgow, Oban is £29 and Stranraer is £21. The Highland railcard does indeed reduce the Oban fare by 50% to an absurdly low 7p per mile. But at just over 10p per mile the Stranraer fare - open to everyone - is one of the cheapest on the UK network.

(This has, however, introduced anomalies if travelling beyond Glasgow, so cheaper now to split tickets at Glasgow.)

Yes, there is no "South West Scotland" railcard, but that is a different issue. These local railcards tend to be used only in areas of high tourist traffic and are basically an attempt to get locals onto the trains at times of the year when not many tourists are around. As mentioned previously there are few tourists on the Stranraer trains. So it would be hard to make the case for a local railcard, particularly when fares are already low.

 

[lyndhurst25]

Re. the new(ish) 350 Stranraer to Cairnryan bus:

- are SailRail tickets now valid on the train all the way to Stranraer again, rather than to Ayr only?

- are SailRail tickets valid on the 350 bus?

There's no mention of being able to go via Stranraer again on seat61.com.

Wasn't there a discussion a while back about no longer being able to use SailRail tickets via Stranraer being a problem for passengers with bikes, wheelchairs, heavy luggage, etc.?

 

[pkkelly]

I'm not sure about this. You would need to email ScotRail about it as they operate the trains, Stena probably wouldn't be able to answer your question. Both parties (and train conductors) may well insist that you get the coach from Ayr with everyone else.

Your ticket certainly wouldn't be accepted on Stagecoach buses from Stranraer to Cairnryan, I wouldn't think.

Connections (Monday - Friday):

Depart               Arrive
Glasgow Central 0730 Ayr 0823
Ayr 0837             Stranraer 0958
Transfer/taxi to Cairnryan
Cairnryan 1130       Belfast 1345

Glasgow Central 1150 Stranraer 1404
Transfer/taxi to Cairnryan
Cairnryan 1530       Belfast 1745

In reverse:

Depart          Arrive
Belfast 0730    Cairnryan 0955
Transfer/taxi to Stranraer
Stranraer 1250  Glasgow Central 1512

Belfast 1130    Cairnryan 1355
Transfer/taxi to Stranraer
Stranraer 1443  Ayr 1604
Ayr 1623        Glasgow Central 1711

Belfast 1530    Cairnryan 1755
Transfer/taxi to Stranraer
Stranraer 1908  Glasgow Central 2131

i.e., really not worth it.

Depends whether you are in a hurry or not. When not in a hurry (and the times suit, ie above) I get the electric bus combined with a £10.50 single between Stranraer and Ayr, rather than enduring the A77 switchback.

 

[feline1]

I think the inconveniences in travel you experienced around SW Scotland, that one would expect around Christmas anywhere in the UK...

The whole point is that these inconveniences only started a couple of years ago, when some genius gave Stena planning permission to move a ferry port without any consideration of whether it was still integrated with the public transport network /facepalms

 

[pkkelly]

Re. the new(ish) 350 Stranraer to Cairnryan bus:

- are SailRail tickets now valid on the train all the way to Stranraer again, rather than to Ayr only?

- are SailRail tickets valid on the 350 bus?

There's no mention of being able to go via Stranraer again on seat61.com.

Wasn't there a discussion a while back about no longer being able to use SailRail tickets via Stranraer being a problem for passengers with bikes, wheelchairs, heavy luggage, etc.?

ScotRail originally allowed use of the train on a SailRail ticket for a while after the move to Cairnryan but then stopped this. This is still the case that the ticket is not valid via Stranraer, but there is nothing to stop you paying on the 350 electric bus and buying a £10.50 Stranraer/Ayr ticket.

 

[feline1]

The did didn't they? You said there were two coaches put on, there's usually only one.

It's hard to tell, because the whole thing is so badly, half-arsededly run. There's no signs up saying "SAIL RAIL CONNECTION COACH THIS WAY >>"
no staff standing around to show anyone where to go, or what to get on.
Just a bunch of vaguely confused travellers all looking at each other in that "oh, is this the coach? Are we supposed to get on this one?" that the British Public do so well, until someone foreigner finally loses it and demands a walforf salad
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Re. the new(ish) 350 Stranraer to Cairnryan bus:

- are SailRail tickets now valid on the train all the way to Stranraer again, rather than to Ayr only?

- are SailRail tickets valid on the 350 bus?

There's no mention of being able to go via Stranraer again on seat61.com.

Wasn't there a discussion a while back about no longer being able to use SailRail tickets via Stranraer being a problem for passengers with bikes, wheelchairs, heavy luggage, etc.?

I emailed ScotRail about this a few days ago and they said no, SailRail only covers you on the Ayr coach, and if you wanted to use rail to Stranraer and the No.350 bus, you'd have to pay extra.

 

[Argosy]

Er, this is somewhat unfair. The base fares to/from Stranraer were significantly lowered last year. Current single from Glasgow to Stranraer is £12.40 which is very cheap for a 101 mile journey. Prior to that the single was £22.40. (I do not know whether this reduction is permanent.) Return fares have also been significantly reduced. A single from Glasgow to Oban (same distance - 101 miles) is £23.10. On day returns to/from Glasgow, Oban is £29 and Stranraer is £21. The Highland railcard does indeed reduce the Oban fare by 50% to an absurdly low 7p per mile. But at just over 10p per mile the Stranraer fare - open to everyone - is one of the cheapest on the UK network.

(This has, however, introduced anomalies if travelling beyond Glasgow, so cheaper now to split tickets at Glasgow.)

Yes, there is no "South West Scotland" railcard, but that is a different issue. These local railcards tend to be used only in areas of high tourist traffic and are basically an attempt to get locals onto the trains at times of the year when not many tourists are around. As mentioned previously there are few tourists on the Stranraer trains. So it would be hard to make the case for a local railcard, particularly when fares are already low.

Do you live in Stranraer or anywhere near the Stranraer line?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Re. the new(ish) 350 Stranraer to Cairnryan bus:

- are SailRail tickets now valid on the train all the way to Stranraer again, rather than to Ayr only?

- are SailRail tickets valid on the 350 bus?

There's no mention of being able to go via Stranraer again on seat61.com.

Wasn't there a discussion a while back about no longer being able to use SailRail tickets via Stranraer being a problem for passengers with bikes, wheelchairs, heavy luggage, etc.?

I can quite categorically say that if you want to use the train to Stranraer in order to use either ferry service then you cannot use rail & sail. Conductors do have sympathy wth pet owners travelling with their pets, who are banned from the Stena bus, but those are the new rules.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It's hard to tell, because the whole thing is so badly, half-arsededly run. There's no signs up saying "SAIL RAIL CONNECTION COACH THIS WAY >>"
no staff standing around to show anyone where to go, or what to get on.
Just a bunch of vaguely confused travellers all looking at each other in that "oh, is this the coach? Are we supposed to get on this one?" that the British Public do so well, until someone foreigner finally loses it and demands a walforf salad
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I emailed ScotRail about this a few days ago and they said no, SailRail only covers you on the Ayr coach, and if you wanted to use rail to Stranraer and the No.350 bus, you'd have to pay extra.

There is a sign up on P4 at Ayr above the "doghouse" and I wouldn't say the staff are that unhelpful, but equally ths is not the US of A with some high school poppet dressed in a tartan skirt saying "Rail and Sail, sure just go right on out through the exit there and the bus is right in front of you. Have a nice day".