LNER to retain some Class 91s & Mk4 sets for a bit longer

[JonathanH]

I think it’s great they’re keeping the 91 locomotive for longer!

It's not really - many a frustrating journey southbound to Kings Cross with sluggish approaches and departures from stations when running a few minutes late.

Perhaps they'll keep them for trains that don't stop much.

 

[yorksrob]

They're nice comfortable carriages. I'm glad they're staying.

 

[JonathanH]

They're nice comfortable carriages. I'm glad they're staying.

I was commenting on a comment about the class 91s, not the Mark 4s.

 

[yorksrob]

I was commenting on a comment about the class 91s, not the Mark 4s.

Fair enough.

A loco's a loco as far as I'm concerned (as long as it runs !).

 

[greyman42]

It's not really - many a frustrating journey southbound to Kings Cross with sluggish approaches and departures from stations when running a few minutes late.

Perhaps they'll keep them for trains that don't stop much.

Apparently, they are going on the London - Leeds services, so not really.

 

[PG]

Rail magazine reports some class 91s/MK4s to be kept by LNER until 2023:
https://www.railmagazine.com/news/fleet/lner-to-keep-class-91s-until-2023
They are also needed to cover for unavailable Hitachi Azumas that require modifications to their inter-car connectors (RAIL 901)

Apologies if there's another thread on this but what mods are needed to the inter-car connectors and why?

 

[swt_passenger]

Apologies if there's another thread on this but what mods are needed to the inter-car connectors and why?

ORR decided that the inter-car wiring (in as delivered state) made it too easy to use it as a ladder to climb up onto the roof. I think the mod is to lengthen the higher cables so the6 hang down much further

 

[nicolaboo]

No, its because more services are planned for December 2021.

Did I hear somewhere that the Leeds - KX route was moving to a 20 minute service gap, instead of the half hourly as at present? (Covid19 notwithstanding).
Is it this or other service improvements that are being implemented to require the extra sets?

 

[Christmas]

I'd really like to see the LNER logo on each coach, the predecessors all managed it. There's just such an expanse of white with nothing on it on every train. The Azuma is even worse.

 

[supervc-10]

Re the double glazing- I had a failed seal on the window on a house I rented as a student! Can happen to any double glazing unit. Of course, that water wasn't sloshing around but it did make a slightly dilapidated student house feel even more dilapidated!

 

[Mordac]

Re the double glazing- I had a failed seal on the window on a house I rented as a student! Can happen to any double glazing unit. Of course, that water wasn't sloshing around but it did make a slightly dilapidated student house feel even more dilapidated!

You had double glazing in your student houses? Mine had single glazing with holes on the frame. And we were 'appy!

 

[swt_passenger]

Did I hear somewhere that the Leeds - KX route was moving to a 20 minute service gap, instead of the half hourly as at present? (Covid19 notwithstanding).
Is it this or other service improvements that are being implemented to require the extra sets?

The finalised ECML timetable has 2 fast paths to Leeds half an hour apart, and another path in alternate hours to Harrogate, that is more of a stopper, shared with the Lincoln service.

I don’t think there’s ever been a proposed regular 3 tph clockface service to Leeds.

 

[Iskra]

The finalised ECML timetable has 2 fast paths to Leeds half an hour apart, and another path in alternate hours to Harrogate, that is more of a stopper, shared with the Lincoln service.

I don’t think there’s ever been a proposed regular 3 tph clockface service to Leeds.

I thought Virgin had won the rights to 3tph to Leeds but then it couldn't be delivered due to the infrastructure?

 

[swt_passenger]

I thought Virgin had won the rights to 3tph to Leeds but then it couldn't be delivered due to the infrastructure?

Don’t know sorry. I’m going by the most recent track access application available online, which as I understand it was what Virgin (trading as East Coast Mainline company) officially asked for.

 

[Speed43125]

HiPa on Twitter

“This should fly... 140mph-capable GEC #Class91 ‘Electra’ locomotive 91105, plus seven Mk4s & DVT 82211, ready to power LNER 1S06 0730 London Kings Cross > Edinburgh Waverley #ECML 17/04/20”

twitter.com

Interesting 91 load 7 +DVT, anyone know anything about the reasoning for shortening the train? just reduced demand? or is something planned for shortening the trains?

 

[swt_passenger]

HiPa on Twitter

“This should fly... 140mph-capable GEC #Class91 ‘Electra’ locomotive 91105, plus seven Mk4s & DVT 82211, ready to power LNER 1S06 0730 London Kings Cross > Edinburgh Waverley #ECML 17/04/20”

twitter.com

Interesting 91 load 7 +DVT, anyone know anything about the reasoning for shortening the train? just reduced demand? or is something planned for shortening the trains?

The retained sets were proposed to be 7 car quite a few years ago, it was in the ECML track access application that has been discussed regularly since about 2016/17?

The idea is that they will be able to match the IET performance.

 

[supervc-10]

You had double glazing in your student houses? Mine had single glazing with holes on the frame. And we were 'appy!

Well I only graduated last year... and I didn't say it was good double glazing!

 

[jaketaylor]

91121 had the set that only had 7 coaches a couple weeks ago, I seen on railcam someone had said it’s to see if the 91s can keep to azuma times. Not sure how true it is

 

[hexagon789]

91121 had the set that only had 7 coaches a couple weeks ago, I seen on railcam someone had said it’s to see if the 91s can keep to azuma times. Not sure how true it is

That was the reasoning behind Virgin wanting to reduce the sets they planned to retain to 91+7 Mk4+DVT.

As it is an Azuma can reach 125mph in a minute less than a full length-225 set, cutting 82 tonnes might be enough to enable a 225 set to do that.

 

[Rhydgaled]

The retained sets were proposed to be 7 car quite a few years ago, it was in the ECML track access application that has been discussed regularly since about 2016/17?

Yes, but if I recall correctly LNER said they planned to keep them at 9-car at least until the new services are launched (Dec 2021 timetable?)

 

[hexagon789]

Yes, but if I recall correctly LNER said they planned to keep them at 9-car at least until the new services are launched (Dec 2021 timetable?)

Yes, I'm sure they said full length sets.

 

[swt_passenger]

Yes, but if I recall correctly LNER said they planned to keep them at 9-car at least until the new services are launched (Dec 2021 timetable?)

Well I’m only aiming to justify the point that 7 car trains has always been intended for the final timetable (whenever it actually happens). I didn‘t mean to imply they were about to be shortening a batch of trains now.

As we‘ve been discussing it in this and earlier threads for a couple of years now, it surprises me that it’s still subject to so much debate. It seems sensible to test the performance now, rather than wait and be caught out at the end of next year if they need a plan B...

 

[Dave91131]

I saw a 7-coach set heading north at Holme yesterday morning, presumably on 0930 KGX-EDB.

Agreed with previous poster - dramatic drop in passenger numbers at present does make this a sensible time to remove 2 coaches from sets to gain the required data etc.

 

[43 302]

I saw a 7-coach set heading north at Holme yesterday morning, presumably on 0930 KGX-EDB.

Agreed with previous poster - dramatic drop in passenger numbers at present does make this a sensible time to remove 2 coaches from sets to gain the required data etc.

Only one set is 2+7 at the moment.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

If anyone’s wondering, from December 2021, LNER are set to operate a train every 2 hours from London King’s Cross to Middlesbrough. As far as I’m aware, it won’t split or join from anything at any location. The service will call at:

London Kings Cross
Peterborough
York
Northallerton
Middlesbrough

There are currently no specifications as to whether it will be a 5 or 9 car Class 800 Azuma but yeah that’s the planned calling pattern. From December 2021 a lot of big changes will be made. York will no longer get an off peak service to Retford, with the London - York stopper being taken out but a replacement London - Newcastle stopper will come in, stopping everywhere except Peterborough (every 2 hours), Retford (all the time), Northallerton (most hours) and Durham (every 2 hours). The London - Edinburgh normal fast LNER service will be sped up. This will be done by taking out stops at Darlington and Berwick (every hour for each). The Harrogate LNER service via Leeds might be via Hambleton Jn, avoiding Wakefield Westgate. This will mean that Harrogate trains isn’t have to reverse. There will be 2 other trains per hour via Wakefield Westgate though, meaning Leeds gets 2-3 trains per hour instead of 2. There will be a service increase all round, though the Aberdeen and Inverness trains will not be part of the KGX, YRK, NCL & EDB service. They will be part of a slower service calling at:

London Kings Cross
Peterborough
Doncaster
York
Darlington
Durham
Newcastle
Berwick
Edinburgh

As well as other changes
Hope this helps

Taken from the other thread so as to not go off topic - if sounds to me like LNER are making preparations for the Edinburgh fasts to be dominated by the twelve retained 91s then.

Why else would they drop two calls (which will reduce the need to decelerate and then accelerate again) and move the Aberdeen and Inverness extensions to the semi?

 

[ainsworth74]

Taken from the other thread so as to not go off topic - if sounds to me like LNER are making preparations for the Edinburgh fasts to be dominated by the twelve retained 91s then.

Why else would they drop two calls (which will reduce the need to decelerate and then accelerate again) and move the Aberdeen and Inverness extensions to the semi?

Because that's how they achieve the four hour timing through the day and the Aberdeen/Inverness services are both well used for connections up and down the route not just to London.

 

[hexagon789]

Because that's how they achieve the four hour timing through the day and the Aberdeen/Inverness services are both well used for connections up and down the route not just to London.

Given BR and GNER's struggles to reliably maintain the 3h59 Scottish Pullman bookings, and East Coast, VTEC and LNER the 4 hours Flying Scotsman booking (it averages 7 late), I wonder how reliably these new fast timings will be met?

Obviously it's only 1 stop (the Scottish Pullmans made two) and a 7-car set is 82 tonnes lighter but given the density of traffic throughout the day particularly at the southern-end of the ECML how long before recovery margins get inserted to make the service more reliable?

 

[cactustwirly]

Given BR and GNER's struggles to reliably maintain the 3h59 Scottish Pullman bookings, and East Coast, VTEC and LNER the 4 hours Flying Scotsman booking (it averages 7 late), I wonder how reliably these new fast timings will be met?

Obviously it's only 1 stop (the Scottish Pullmans made two) and a 7-car set is 82 tonnes lighter but given the density of traffic throughout the day particularly at the southern-end of the ECML how long before recovery margins get inserted to make the service more reliable?

Unless they're planning to use 80xs with their superior acceleration?
But especially when running southbound towards London, if there are more trains, there's an increased chance of these service being held up by Thameslink, making it difficult difficult to maintain timings.

 

[Brissle Girl]

Given BR and GNER's struggles to reliably maintain the 3h59 Scottish Pullman bookings, and East Coast, VTEC and LNER the 4 hours Flying Scotsman booking (it averages 7 late), I wonder how reliably these new fast timings will be met?

Obviously it's only 1 stop (the Scottish Pullmans made two) and a 7-car set is 82 tonnes lighter but given the density of traffic throughout the day particularly at the southern-end of the ECML how long before recovery margins get inserted to make the service more reliable?

Well the improved performance will undoubtedly help, as will the faster track configuration just outside Kings Cross. And other infrastructure improvements, notably the Werrington grade separation, will help reduce conflicting moves. But there is a history of achieving 4 hr timings only for them to be eased going back to the original electrification scheme, so I understand your scepticism.

 

[hexagon789]

Unless they're planning to use 80xs with their superior acceleration?
But especially when running southbound towards London, if there are more trains, there's an increased chance of these service being held up by Thameslink, making it difficult difficult to maintain timings.

That was the original plan I understand when the new fast service in 4h-4h05 was mentioned hence the tender for more Azumas. I'm not saying the 225s can manage it, I'm sure they could even at full length it's more the general feasibility of such timings given the historic issues with them on a less busy ECML.