London Overground to go completly DOO by July 2014

[the sniper]

With most modern post privatisation units SWT aside , the driver is responsible for releasing the doors,and the guard closing and dispatching i wonder how the stats for door incidents compare with the full DOO routes

Erm, in a most areas with Guards the Guard releases the doors and shuts them, even on brand new units. Virgin West Coast and XC are notable exceptions, but I'd say where there is a Guard it's still the norm for them to have full control of the doors.

 

[ainsworth74]

Erm, in a most areas with Guards the Guard releases the doors and shuts them, even on brand new units. Virgin West Coast and XC are notable exceptions, but I'd say where there is a Guard it's still the norm for them to have full control of the doors.

Quite. The only others I think are the 180s. That being said I have a feeling that a lot of modern units are capable of being operated with the driver opening the doors (and closing them also I believe) but the majority are operated in the traditional fashion.

 

[Mojo]

Southern and Southeastern 375/377s, LO 378s, Chiltern 165/168s, Great Western 165/166s, Voyagers, and Pendolinos, are at least all trains off top of my head with guards where the driver opens the doors. Still a minority (although possibly not in terms of customer numbers), but I'd need to look at the stats.

 

[Carlisle]

Southern and Southeastern 375/377s, LO 378s, Chiltern 165/168s, Great Western 165/166s, Voyagers, and Pendolinos, are at least all trains off top of my head with guards where the driver opens the doors. Still a minority (although possibly not in terms of customer numbers), but I'd need to look at the stats.

Cheers i guess all the desiros that are non Doo are guard released then ,was not sure .

 

[Starmill]

See what I meant about lack of consistency!

 

[Monty]

Southern and Southeastern 375/377s, LO 378s, Chiltern 165/168s, Great Western 165/166s, Voyagers, and Pendolinos, are at least all trains off top of my head with guards where the driver opens the doors. Still a minority (although possibly not in terms of customer numbers), but I'd need to look at the stats.

Do you know that the arrangment is with other Bombardier products Mojo?, the Turbostars which are closely related to the Electrostars for example does the driver release the doors on a 172 or does the guard?

You can also add the 458s to the list of stock where the guard both releases and closes the doors.

 

[Starmill]

You can also add the 458s to the list of stock where the guard both releases and closes the doors.

Are we making a list of that? Surely we'd start with all of the pacer and sprinter+variant classes? Then the 323s, 333s, 175s, 185s... well, I think you can see where this is going...

 

[Carlisle]

The units i thought were driver released were class 165/166 ,170,171,172, 175 ,180,220,221,375,377,378,390 not sure about class 222s 333s

 

[Tomnick]

222s and, I'm fairly sure, 170s aren't driver released - on the former, the driver first has to select the number of vehicles for SDO, but the guard actually puts the release up if I'm not mistaken.

 

[Carlisle]

222s and, I'm fairly sure, 170s aren't driver released - on the former, the driver first has to select the number of vehicles for SDO, but the guard actually puts the release up if I'm not mistaken.

Cheers im sure someone can make a more accurate list then

 

[southerner2174]

On the Southern 171's on the Uckfield line, the guard both releases and closes the doors, on the Ashford line the driver releases and guard closes

 

[OxtedL]

On the Southern 171's on the Uckfield line, the guard both releases and closes the doors, on the Ashford line the driver releases and guard closes

Does anyone know if there's a particular reason for this inconsistency?

 

[notadriver]

Really are you sure about that ? I always thought the guard did everything.

 

[OxtedL]

I've never watched a guard operate the doors on an Ashford, but it does feel a bit strange that it'd be different to the Uckfields.

 

[Goldfish62]

Cheers i guess all the desiros that are non Doo are guard released then ,was not sure .

Correct.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Southern and Southeastern 375/377s, LO 378s, Chiltern 165/168s, Great Western 165/166s, Voyagers, and Pendolinos, are at least all trains off top of my head with guards where the driver opens the doors. Still a minority (although possibly not in terms of customer numbers), but I'd need to look at the stats.

Class 373? I think? On mainline European trains the driver tends to release the doors from my experience.

 

[Darren R]

"Between 5 January 2009 and 30 December 2011, [TOC X] Drivers had 151 stop shorts, with 148 releasing the doors and two passengers alighting. During the same period, there were 53 off side door releases".

Forgive me if this is a stupid question - but why isn't Bob Crow using figures such as these to support his case? Since such statistics are collated, why isn't the RMT shouting them from the rooftops? Half the battle is winning the support of the media and public. If there are official statistics proving that trains are less safe without guards I sure as Hell would be publishing them if I was Bob Crow!

(I'm not questioning the veracity of BestWestern's posting, by the way, nor even criticising Bob Crow's handling of the dispute - it is a genuine question!)

 

[Mojo]

Forgive me if this is a stupid question - but why isn't Bob Crow using figures such as these to support his case? Since such statistics are collated, why isn't the RMT shouting them from the rooftops? Half the battle is winning the support of the media and public. If there are official statistics proving that trains are less safe without guards I sure as Hell would be publishing them if I was Bob Crow!

At present (at least on the electric routes, not sure about the GOBLin) the train's driver opens the doors anyway, so such incidents of stop short (and the doors opening) and wrong side door opening are probably equally as likely to happen now as when the trains are operated in Driver-only mode. Furthermore, I'd also hazard a guess that stop-shorts are less likely to occur on the Overground compared to other Tocs, as all the electric trains are the same length.

 

[Goldfish62]

Forgive me if this is a stupid question - but why isn't Bob Crow using figures such as these to support his case? Since such statistics are collated, why isn't the RMT shouting them from the rooftops? Half the battle is winning the support of the media and public. If there are official statistics proving that trains are less safe without guards I sure as Hell would be publishing them if I was Bob Crow!

(I'm not questioning the veracity of BestWestern's posting, by the way, nor even criticising Bob Crow's handling of the dispute - it is a genuine question!)

What on earth has the door release argument got to do with the elimination of the remaining guards on LO? The driver already releases the doors on 100% of LO trains. You can't argue that eliminating guards will decrease safety due to improper door release because the drivers release the doors anyway.

If I were the RMT my main argument would be based around passenger security, particularly at the eastern end of the line.

 

[notadriver]

What on earth has the door release argument got to do with the elimination of the remaining guards on LO? The driver already releases the doors on 100% of LO trains.

WRONG!! The guard releases and closes the doors on the GOBLIN line which are LO trains.

 

[Carlisle]

What on earth has the door release argument got to do with the elimination of the remaining guards on LO? The driver already releases the doors on 100% of LO trains. You can't argue that eliminating guards will decrease safety due to improper door release because the drivers release the doors anyway.

If I were the RMT my main argument would be based around passenger security, particularly at the eastern end of the line.

I think their point was that they wanted door release transferred back to the guards duties

 

[Goldfish62]

I think their point was that they wanted door release transferred back to the guards duties

Bit difficult if the guard's door panels don't have door release buttons fitted, but I take the point.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

WRONG!! The guard releases and closes the doors on the GOBLIN line which are LO trains.

Ok Mr Pedant, 100% of their ELECTRIC fleet. Happy?

 

[313103]

What on earth has the door release argument got to do with the elimination of the remaining guards on LO? The driver already releases the doors on 100% of LO trains. You can't argue that eliminating guards will decrease safety due to improper door release because the drivers release the doors anyway.

If I were the RMT my main argument would be based around passenger security, particularly at the eastern end of the line.

I think you can use that argument and I have alluded to it already, The number of wrong side door opening has increased by at least 95% since the introduction of class 378s and that is what say in 3 and half years! The trade union has asked for comparison periods of time this is declined, the union also asked for wrong side door release incidents since LOROL took over in 2007 this has been declined, the union also asked for door opening incidents at locations where there is no station (which has shot up by 100%) this has also been declined. We are also only asking for incidents on the NLL/WLL/Gospel Oak to Barking lines!

Now I am absolutely 100% positive and I would bet myself and my family that if the results showed that the Guards opening and closing the doors made it less safe and that more incidents were occurring the company would be screaming it at our and no doubt your faces.

Could this be why the company have refused to show the union its safety case on the issue of DOO?

When the union has mentioned about security and the safety of passengers, the company has come back and said we have approx. 8,000 cctv cameras on our stations and trains this makes the passengers safe not the physical presence of a member of staff, we also have travel safe officers that regularly patrol trains anyway.

 

[Carlisle]

The Mc Nulty report advocated DOO be deployed widely throughout the network mainly as an efficiency measure,.The government supposedly accepted this report in full a year or so ago ,it would have helped greatly if the DFT had organized a mature debate on this issue before accepting the report, either concluding ( yes we consider it safe to be widely expanded )or (no all trains must have 2 personal at all times )

 

[Darren R]

What on earth has the door release argument got to do with the elimination of the remaining guards on LO? The driver already releases the doors on 100% of LO trains. You can't argue that eliminating guards will decrease safety due to improper door release because the drivers release the doors anyway.

Not everyone knows the minutiae of who presses what button on a train as you do. Thank you Mojo - I wasn't aware that drivers operate the door release.

 

[BestWestern]

What on earth has the door release argument got to do with the elimination of the remaining guards on LO? The driver already releases the doors on 100% of LO trains. You can't argue that eliminating guards will decrease safety due to improper door release because the drivers release the doors anyway.

If I were the RMT my main argument would be based around passenger security, particularly at the eastern end of the line.

I think you can use that argument and I have alluded to it already, The number of wrong side door opening has increased by at least 95% since the introduction of class 378s and that is what say in 3 and half years! The trade union has asked for comparison periods of time this is declined, the union also asked for wrong side door release incidents since LOROL took over in 2007 this has been declined, the union also asked for door opening incidents at locations where there is no station (which has shot up by 100%) this has also been declined. We are also only asking for incidents on the NLL/WLL/Gospel Oak to Barking lines!

Now I am absolutely 100% positive and I would bet myself and my family that if the results showed that the Guards opening and closing the doors made it less safe and that more incidents were occurring the company would be screaming it at our and no doubt your faces.

Could this be why the company have refused to show the union its safety case on the issue of DOO?

I would agree entirely. Is there no way that such information be obtained, i.e. Freedom of Information style requests or suchlike? Surely the safety case at least must be available, it's not top secret!?

 

[Monty]

I would agree entirely. Is there no way that such information be obtained, i.e. Freedom of Information style requests or suchlike? Surely the safety case at least must be available, it's not top secret!?

I think a Freedom of Information request only applies to a government body, so I don't think LOROL have to do anything. What would be interesting to know if TfL or the DfT have access to these figures because of course the RMT could request them to make it public.

 

[313103]

Sorry to bring this old thread back to the fore, but I would just like to let you know that I have received my redundancy notice and have a meeting rather strangely 3 and half hours before i am due to start work on Thursday which means a nice long and unwanted 12 hour and 43 minute long job!

This meeting sets out the day I finish my railway career. This could now be well before the final death nail which is December the 7th. I have had no luck in finding alternative work despite spending many hours and days looking for it.

I have never been unemployed before so if there is someone who has been unfortunate to have been there before can they pm me and let me know the processes of what I have to do. My company hasn't been that helpful on that or any other front come to think of it.

Thanks for any advice and assistance it will be gratefully appreciated.

 

[anthony263]

Sorry to hear this and I have just sent you a pm.

I am sure some of the other members of this forum have been in your position and can also offer you advice

 

[ModernRailways]

That's certainly not good!

Worst of all is the Union doesn't seem to have attempted to help you find work to continue straight over to a new TOC!

Hopefully you will find something!

I did hear Southern may be advertising soon for some new positions in the customer role, what they are though remains to be seen.

Good Luck!

 

[Carlisle]

Sorry to bring this old thread back to the fore, but I would just like to let you know that I have received my redundancy notice and have a meeting rather strangely 3 and half hours before i am due to start work on Thursday which means a nice long and unwanted 12 hour and 43 minute long job!

This meeting sets out the day I finish my railway career. This could now be well before the final death nail which is December the 7th. I have had no luck in finding alternative work despite spending many hours and days looking for it.

I have never been unemployed before so if there is someone who has been unfortunate to have been there before can they pm me and let me know the processes of what I have to do. My company hasn't been that helpful on that or any other front come to think of it.

Thanks for any advice and assistance it will be gratefully appreciated.

I'm very sorry to hear that ,although the management have said in the press there would be no cumpulsory redundancies are they telling porkies ?