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London Terminals - has something changed?

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Surreytraveller

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I think it is said upthread that this easement does not allow break of journey in any form (unlike a cross London transfer where starting or ending short is allowed but break and resume is not).
But surely a break of journey is allowed at Highbury & Islington, as it is a National Rail station (albeit staffed by Underground staff), which would also be why you can leave Old Street station - that also being a National Rail station.
 
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Surreytraveller

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Fair point. I was surprised they didn't just issue the ticket to Zone U1 Londn which would have solved the problem including opening the barriers.
Because a Zone U1 ticket would be more expensive (or R1256 if it was a season). The whole point of the inter-availability is to avoid charging passengers for the Underground part of the journey to travel to National Rail destinations.
 

Surreytraveller

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It’s not that simple really, as they could want to exit anywhere.
Indeed, and you'd also have the issue of relief staff, some of whom might be brought in at short notice from locations which wouldn't need any knowledge of local arrangements like this.
 

Bletchleyite

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Because a Zone U1 ticket would be more expensive (or R1256 if it was a season). The whole point of the inter-availability is to avoid charging passengers for the Underground part of the journey to travel to National Rail destinations.

This was specifically in relation to the Caledonian Sleeper First Class ticket, where reducing the fare of over £200 by £4 to add on the Tube fare wouldn't kill anyone.

In reality, with Oyster/contactless, the benefit it intended (getting onto the Tube quicker without queueing for a ticket) has gone, so it got dropped. (If you paid £250 for a ticket, you're not going to care about £2.whatever for a contactless Tube single, so the money isn't important).
 
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I think it is said upthread that this easement does not allow break of journey in any form (unlike a cross London transfer where starting or ending short is allowed but break and resume is not).

The instructions do allow a break at Highbury and Old Street, but not Farringdon, Barbican, Essex Road or Angel. Bad form to quote myself I know, but this is the official advice from the NR side: [...] are also valid on LU/DLR services between Finsbury Park and Kings Cross/St Pancras Und. but intermediately at Highbury & Islington only (Victoria Line/Piccadilly Line) and also between Kings Cross/St Pancras Und. and Moorgate (via Circle, Metropolitan, Hammersmith & City and Northern Lines, but intermediately at Old Street ONLY
 
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jon0844

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But surely a break of journey is allowed at Highbury & Islington, as it is a National Rail station (albeit staffed by Underground staff), which would also be why you can leave Old Street station - that also being a National Rail station.

Yes. There was disruption meaning no trains from Essex Road (ISTR a ticket there is issued to London Terminals), so we walked to Highbury & Islington to get the tube to Finsbury Park.

I was told I couldn't enter there, even though GN trains stop there so there shouldn't have been any issue as I could have been intending to use that over the tube.

I can of course see why TfL might be keen to stop people using London Terminals tickets to travel wherever they like. If the gates open, people will wrongly assume their travel is valid - and since the May timetable disruption, many more people are using the tube on the interavailable routes and may well think 'why not stay on to Euston' if they get on the Victoria line with a ticket only valid to King's Cross.

Clearly the answer is to train staff so they know from looking at a ticket if it's valid and not just assume 'seek assistance' means invalid.
 
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CyrusWuff

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This was specifically in relation to the Caledonian Sleeper First Class ticket, where reducing the fare of over £200 by £4 to add on the Tube fare wouldn't kill anyone.
At the risk of drifting even more off-topic, ISTR that the Sleeper fares to Zone U1 (and possibly Zone U12) were set at the same level as those to London Terminals specifically to avoid the acceptance issue, but Serco's new range of Sleeper products has eliminated that and they're now all explicitly to/from Euston (or Kings Cross when diverted) with no through fares to zonal destinations.
 

jon0844

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I've seen someone mention that there was some signage at King's Cross. Not sure about the details.

Yes there was. I think a photo exists here somewhere. It basically said London Terminals tickets were not valid at King's Cross (underground) with posters in the booking hall.
 

OwenB

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Yes there was. I think a photo exists here somewhere. It basically said London Terminals tickets were not valid at King's Cross (underground) with posters in the booking hall.
Seems printing posters and displaying them are a long way from a few TfL staff simply not knowing the ticketing rules.
 

furlong

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Absolutely typical and slaps of TfL trying to withdraw the inter-availability by stealth.

Careful - there's nothing here so far that suggests deliberately denying validity. (If there was, it might be deemed a prosecutable breach of the consumer regulations.) Someone affected should write to LU in the strongest terms, putting them on notice so they can no longer claim any continued overcharging is unintentional and opening the way for a prosecution if the problem persists.
 

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A briefing /was/ sent to all staff at the end of August to advise them, that whilst the gatelines are being reprogrammed to decline entry on 'London Terminals' tickets, the validity has not changed.
 

PermitToTravel

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I think I know what has happened. This is from a FOI request in the summer and is an extract of the "Ask Olly" page in the internal Ticketing and Revenue publication by TfL.
Surely the best way of making this change would be to have the gates continue to allow entry at King's Cross (and exit at Moorgate and Old Street), but deny exit at other stations
 

Mojo

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Surely the best way of making this change would be to have the gates continue to allow entry at King's Cross (and exit at Moorgate and Old Street), but deny exit at other stations
Customers /are/ already denied exit at all other stations. The issue the letter is referring to is that customers enter the system at Kings + and travel to a station where 'London Terminals' tickets are not valid. They then approach staff for assistance and a problem arises when they are told their ticket is not valid for travel.
 

PeterC

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A briefing /was/ sent to all staff at the end of August to advise them, that whilst the gatelines are being reprogrammed to decline entry on 'London Terminals' tickets, the validity has not changed.
While I have never worked for TfL I do know that in every single company that I have worked for in 45 years of paid employment that any sort of official circular is ignored by around half the staff.
 

Mojo

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While I have never worked for TfL I do know that in every single company that I have worked for in 45 years of paid employment that any sort of official circular is ignored by around half the staff.
The bulletin in question is supposed to be signed for by every member of staff. How well that is enforced is down to local management. For what it's worth, the bulletin is only for London Underground, not TfL staff, and station staff are employed on contracts for London Underground Ltd and not Transport for London.
 

OwenB

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Customers /are/ already denied exit at all other stations. The issue the letter is referring to is that customers enter the system at Kings + and travel to a station where 'London Terminals' tickets are not valid. They then approach staff for assistance and a problem arises when they are told their ticket is not valid for travel.
The issue is now that the barriers have been reprogrammed at King's Cross, Moorgate, etc, where it should be letting folk through. The barriers at other stations rightly do not let people through.
 

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Armed with the outward portion of a Gold Card discounted Off Peak Day Return between Stevenage and London Terminals I’ve just travelkedbbetween Kings Cross St Pancras and Moorgate on the Circle Line.

I used the gate line in the Tube ticket hall at Kings Cross St Pancras and my ticket was rejected by the barrier. I approached a gate line assistant, showed him my ticket and told him I was travelling to Moorgate. He let me through without fuss. I had a brief conversation with the assistant, he said they had been briefed about the situation and that they had been getting a fair bit of grief over the last few days.

No issue exiting at Moorgate as I used an unbarried exit. Didn’t intend to but I’m not overly familiar with Moorgate and took a wrong turn.
 

Mojo

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The issue is now that the barriers have been reprogrammed at King's Cross, Moorgate, etc, where it should be letting folk through. The barriers at other stations rightly do not let people through.
I know that; I didn’t say anything to the contrary. My post was in direct relation to the one I quoted. The change is only at Kings + St Pancras.
 

OwenB

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Nice one Hadders. Still seems to be an issue for some. From a commuter's Twitter:
I was stopped by an undercover ticket inspector at the barriers at kings cross on my way home this evening... said that my ticket is no longer valid for the tube as of 2nd September Please can this issue be resolved ASAP as he was fairly aggressive on it and it was time consuming
 

OwenB

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I know that; I didn’t say anything to the contrary. My post was in direct relation to the one I quoted. The change is only at Kings + St Pancras.
Understood. No offence intended.
 

greyman42

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So would a ticket from York to London terminals be valid on the Underground from Kings Cross to Moorgate?
 
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I seem to recall that the Interavailability between FPK and KGX/MOG goes back at least to 1962, when LT and British Rail were separated from out of the erstwhile BTC. It's always been about 50/50 in my experience whether the LUL gateline staff know about this, sounds like it's moved to 75 against/25 for these days...
 

OwenB

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I seem to recall that the Interavailability between FPK and KGX/MOG goes back at least to 1962, when LT and British Rail were separated from out of the erstwhile BTC. It's always been about 50/50 in my experience whether the LUL gateline staff know about this, sounds like it's moved to 75 against/25 for these days...
Also, the staff didn't really have to know the acceptance rules before this week, as until Monday the ticket gates were accepting the tickets.
 

jon0844

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Also, the staff didn't really have to know the acceptance rules before this week, as until Monday the ticket gates were accepting the tickets.

And on top of that I don't think many rail passengers knew themselves that they could use the tube. Only since May when people were advised by staff they could use the tube did many realise. Now many are likely thinking GTR was at fault for telling them it was okay as they'd likely assume LU staff know best.
 
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