MG11 issued, please help

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furlong

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It's understandable though, given the confused messaging about declassified 1st class on those services which remains marked as 1st class even though it is declassified, and the period last year when they declassified it all at certain times of the day! Until they sort out this this mess and label all their carriages correctly and clearly, surely most passengers are more likely to be confused than to be deliberately evading their fare, and should be given the benefit of the doubt, and either asked to pay the difference or move. How can you have some signs saying first class which are meant to be obeyed, while simultaneously having other identical ones that are meant to be ignored? It wouldn't exactly be hard to have the signs say this is only 1st class if it is at the front of the train, not if it is at the back, or whatever the situation is.
 
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It's understandable though, given the confused messaging about declassified 1st class on those services which remains marked as 1st class even though it is declassified, and the period last year when they declassified it all at certain times of the day! Until they sort out this this mess and label all their carriages correctly and clearly, surely most passengers are more likely to be confused than to be deliberately evading their fare, and should be given the benefit of the doubt, and either asked to pay the difference or move. How can you have some signs saying first class which are meant to be obeyed, while simultaneously having other identical ones that are meant to be ignored? It wouldn't exactly be hard to have the signs say this is only 1st class if it is at the front of the train, not if it is at the back, or whatever the situation is.

How Much more clear can thameslink make it ?

1. to enter the first class comparment you need to walk through a glass partition with a glass door that CLEARLY states on it 1st Class
2. All the seats have head covers on them again saying 1st class
3. The windows in that section have 1st class marked on them
4. The platform screens for the next train state which section is classified and de classified.
 

Mem

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You haven't been honest, you travelled without a valid ticket, refused to pay the Penalty Fare amd then gave a false address. It's not looking good for you.
I was actually very honest specially since I actually called thameslink and also corrected myself with the man
I didn't refuse to pay. I simply said i haven't the card to pay but my wife does and I can pay when I leave the train and obtain the card
He didn't tell me I had time to pay it (21 days so I hear) he simply said it has to be paid there and then or I get a mg11. As far as i hear thats not correct
All of this for Mr mistakingly sitting in 1st class thinking it was declassified.
All he had to do was tell me to move on as others do and/or explain the penalty correctly stating I actually have 21 days, i would of taken that option meaning the mg11 wouldn't of been issued
 

Mem

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How Much more clear can thameslink make it ?

1. to enter the first class comparment you need to walk through a glass partition with a glass door that CLEARLY states on it 1st Class
2. All the seats have head covers on them again saying 1st class
3. The windows in that section have 1st class marked on them
4. The platform screens for the next train state which section is classified and de classified.
Same as it did when it was declassified. No clear signage even when it was declassified before.
Either way it's an honest miskate and I would of moved. Also i don't need to be blocked in by a member of staff
Its a honest mistake to be fair. I had my monthly pass and just sat in 1st class
I would of moved or paid the penalty in the timr period. Neither of them was offered or explained to me
 

Mem

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From your original post, it seems you refused to pay the £40 when the Officer first asked you to.
No I said I couldn't as my fire had the card. I did however say i can pay just not right here and now
 

AlterEgo

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Who goes to London without their bank card on them?

If I was the RPI you’d come across as a complete chancer.
 

Mem

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Who goes to London without their bank card on them?

If I was the RPI you’d come across as a complete chancer.
I didn't realise I had to go to work with my bank card with me?
I had 20 pound on me that I spent out at lunch with a friend. I didnt need more thrn that nor do I have to carry around my bank card?
If I seem like a chancer because i didn't have my card then that's just silly. The rules state 21 days or whatever it is to pay. I should have been made aware
Fact I didn't have my card and the wife did has nothing to do with it nor should it matter
 

Mem

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If the bank card is in your name, lending it to your wife could also get you both in trouble.
The bank card is a joint account, in both names. She lost her card hence using mine. None are a crime and irellivent to what happened
 

AlterEgo

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I didn't realise I had to go to work with my bank card with me?
I had 20 pound on me that I spent out at lunch with a friend. I didnt need more thrn that nor do I have to carry around my bank card?
If I seem like a chancer because i didn't have my card then that's just silly. The rules state 21 days or whatever it is to pay. I should have been made aware
Fact I didn't have my card and the wife did has nothing to do with it nor should it matter

Sure, leaving your bank card at home, or with your wife, is what everyone does (!). Everyone just goes out with a twenty pound note to London.
 
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I was actually very honest specially since I actually called thameslink and also corrected myself with the man
I didn't refuse to pay. I simply said i haven't the card to pay but my wife does and I can pay when I leave the train and obtain the card
He didn't tell me I had time to pay it (21 days so I hear) he simply said it has to be paid there and then or I get a mg11. As far as i hear thats not correct
All of this for Mr mistakingly sitting in 1st class thinking it was declassified.
All he had to do was tell me to move on as others do and/or explain the penalty correctly stating I actually have 21 days, i would of taken that option meaning the mg11 wouldn't of been issued

Not wanting to be nit picking but you said in your origional post and I quote
“I did say to him it's ridiculous and I wasn't going to pay 40 pound for a misunderstanding.
He then said he will give me a mg11?!?!”

You had the opportunity to take the penalty fare of £40 however you said that is ridiculous and you wasn’t going to pay it for a misunderstanding”
Once you refused to pay the penalty fare the inspector went down the road he did correctly.
Unfortunately as others have said this is now going to cost you a more than the origional £40. Best thing to do is just wait for thameslink to get back in touch with you and take it from there.
 

Mem

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Sure, leaving your bank card at home, or with your wife, is what everyone does (!). Everyone just goes out with a twenty pound note to London.
I'm not sure if that was meant to be sarcastic or not so?
Either way it's what happened.
I wasn't aware that I wasn't allowed to do that not do i see why it has any reticence to whats happening. I told him this and I told him I can pay just not there in full
Either way me only taking 20 pound to London don't really have any reflection here does it?
I'm after help and advice!
Why do i have to spend more thrn 20 in London, daily?
Silly comment
 

Mem

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Not wanting to be nit picking but you said in your origional post and I quote
“I did say to him it's ridiculous and I wasn't going to pay 40 pound for a misunderstanding.
He then said he will give me a mg11?!?!”

You had the opportunity to take the penalty fare of £40 however you said that is ridiculous and you wasn’t going to pay it for a misunderstanding”
Once you refused to pay the penalty fare the inspector went down the road he did correctly.
Unfortunately as others have said this is now going to cost you a more than the origional £40. Best thing to do is just wait for thameslink to get back in touch with you and take it from there.
Agreed it was worded like that but like I said I did say to him that I couldn't pay there and then and a 40 pound fine was ridiculous.
After bring told that I couldn't pay 40 there and then shouldn't it have been explained to me that I had 21 days?
I did explain to him I only had access to my card once I met the wife at the station but I could pay then.
I hav3 also b33n told the fine is double the fare or 20 pound, what ever is higher. Meaning 40 pound standard charge he was doing to others was wrong?
Either way I said it was ridiculous but did also say i can pay it when I leave the train at my next stop. That comply with the 21 days ?
It's simply as i didn't have the card on me is all
 
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Agreed it was worded like that but like I said I did say to him that I couldn't pay there and then and a 40 pound fine was ridiculous.
After bring told that I couldn't pay 40 there and then shouldn't it have been explained to me that I had 21 days?
I did explain to him I only had access to my card once I met the wife at the station but I could pay then.
I hav3 also b33n told the fine is double the fare or 20 pound, what ever is higher. Meaning 40 pound standard charge he was doing to others was wrong?
Either way I said it was ridiculous but did also say i can pay it when I leave the train at my next stop. That comply with the 21 days ?
It's simply as i didn't have the card on me is all
I think the best thing you can do just now is just wait and see what thameslink say.
 

AlterEgo

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I'm not sure if that was meant to be sarcastic or not so?
Either way it's what happened.
I wasn't aware that I wasn't allowed to do that not do i see why it has any reticence to whats happening. I told him this and I told him I can pay just not there in full
Either way me only taking 20 pound to London don't really have any reflection here does it?
I'm after help and advice!
Why do i have to spend more thrn 20 in London, daily?
Silly comment

You’re getting lots of advice from people around you which should make you reflect on how poorly you must have come across at the time.

No valid ticket
No money
No means to pay
Refused to pay the penalty fare and argued because it was “ridiculous”
Refused to sign MG11
Lied about your address
Lied about your name
Previous run in with revenue protection

...and you think you were being honest and were treated harshly!

Wait for the letter to come and aim to settle out of court with them. It’ll cost you in the low three figures.
 

Clip

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Sure, leaving your bank card at home, or with your wife, is what everyone does (!). Everyone just goes out with a twenty pound note to London.

They were only going to work so im not surprised they have done that and i know a lot of people who are close friends who will do the same so that they dont end up just popping out afterwards for a few beers and such. Its not unusual to say the least
 

Mem

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? i dont feel i came across poorly to be fair, maybe i didnt explain it properly here
No valid ticket - i have a valid monthly ticket and sat in 1st class on the understanding it was declassified, all he had to do was ask me to move like they normally do to others or explain that i have 21 days to pay it, i would of then taken that option
No Money - there is no law stating i must carry money or my card for that matter, i have money thanks just not at the time, however i did state that i can pay as soon as i meet my partner at the station
i refused to pay the fare on the spot as i couldnt but again i did explain that i can when i meet my partner or even when i get home, he never explained i had 21 days and didnt need to pay it on the spot
lied about my address yes, my previous run with revenue protection was nothing liek this, i caused no problems and was helping a pregnant woman before i was grabbed by the arm and walked to another carrige, complained and it was noted and i was aplogised to, neither of these have any affect on this case
when i was confronted last time with the pregnant lady situation i was a lil shook up to be honest and when cornered by this man i gave my wrong adress, i was stupid and it kind of brought that feeling back, i quickly fixed this by telling the man and calling thameslink whop agree it was handled wrong
 

JN114

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There’s not really anything to add advice-wise - wait for GTR/Thameslink to get in contact with you; they’ll likely ask you to clarify your version of events.
 

Greenback

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It's not against the law to go to London with only £20 in your pocket and no other means of payment. I'm sure people do it all the time. The point is, though, that such a scenario could possibly lead to problems should things go wrong with your day, as you have no unfortunately discovered.

What seems to have happened is that there has been an unfortunate chain of events and I'm afraid that my reading of the situation you found yourself in is that you were immediately uncooperative and unreasonable. I have found the Thameslink declassification to be confusing myself, so that may be a point of mitigation in your favour, but ultimately, to the impartial reader of this thread it does look as if you made several assumptions about what would happen and this helped you to dig a hole for yourself.

My advice is to wait and see what happens, but to be prepared to fork out a tidy sum to settle the matter.
 

ForTheLoveOf

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? i dont feel i came across poorly to be fair, maybe i didnt explain it properly here
Before finding out the full details, I was ambivalent as to who was in the wrong in this situation. However, having read the story in full, I think we can pretty confidently say it is you, unfortunately.

No valid ticket - i have a valid monthly ticket and sat in 1st class on the understanding it was declassified, all he had to do was ask me to move like they normally do to others or explain that i have 21 days to pay it, i would of then taken that option
Unfortunately, a standard class ticket is not valid in first class, so you didn't have a valid ticket as you were in first class. The fact that it would have been valid in standard class doesn't mean it isn't an offence to travel in first with a standard class ticket. The only exemption is where first is declassified, or where there is a published or announced policy of allowing on-train first upgrades (e.g. as some operators do on weekends).

No Money - there is no law stating i must carry money or my card for that matter, i have money thanks just not at the time, however i did state that i can pay as soon as i meet my partner at the station
There is no law saying you must have money on you to go around London, but if you are travelling by train, the normal expectation is that you have a valid ticket, and if you do not have a valid ticket, that you have the means for paying for a valid ticket on your person. Failing to have either a ticket or the means to pay for a ticket on you could be construed as intent to avoid payment of the correct fare, which is a more serious offence than merely travelling in the incorrect class of travel.

i refused to pay the fare on the spot as i couldnt but again i did explain that i can when i meet my partner or even when i get home, he never explained i had 21 days and didnt need to pay it on the spot
Unfortunately, refusing to pay on the spot is never going to work out well in such a situation. Whilst you do indeed have 21 days to pay a Penalty Fare, there is no obligation upon an operator to offer a Penalty Fare, and if a Revenue Protection Officer is aware you don't have the money to pay for a Penalty Fare there and then, they are entitled to take your details (MG11) instead.

lied about my address yes, my previous run with revenue protection was nothing liek this, i caused no problems and was helping a pregnant woman before i was grabbed by the arm and walked to another carrige, complained and it was noted and i was aplogised to, neither of these have any affect on this case
Lying about your address is never OK. It doesn't matter what the circumstances are.

when i was confronted last time with the pregnant lady situation i was a lil shook up to be honest and when cornered by this man i gave my wrong adress, i was stupid and it kind of brought that feeling back, i quickly fixed this by telling the man and calling thameslink whop agree it was handled wrong
Giving your incorrect address is wrong, and specifically an offence (regardless of anything else you do), whether you correct the mistake afterwards or not.
 

Mem

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Unfortunately, refusing to pay on the spot is never going to work out well in such a situation. Whilst you do indeed have 21 days to pay a Penalty Fare, there is no obligation upon an operator to offer a Penalty Fare, and if a Revenue Protection Officer is aware you don't have the money to pay for a Penalty Fare there and then, they are entitled to take your details (MG11) instead.

should the officer comply with the correct procedure? meaning 2 x the single fare or 20 pound, what ever is greater and also offering me the option to have the 21 days to pay, he was made aware more then once that i could indeed pay i just didnt have the means to at the time, same as when you get a parking ticket for example, you have (X) amount of time to pay

There is no law saying you must have money on you to go around London, but if you are travelling by train, the normal expectation is that you have a valid ticket, and if you do not have a valid ticket, that you have the means for paying for a valid ticket on your person. Failing to have either a ticket or the means to pay for a ticket on you could be construed as intent to avoid payment of the correct fare, which is a more serious offence than merely travelling in the incorrect class of travel.

was far from intent not to pay, i mistakenly thought it was declassified and when told it wasnt i was willing to move, at no point should i have beeen detained and acording to thameslink when i phoned them last night the procedure fiollowed was all wrong

i am thankful for your help though, all of you, appreciate it
 

AlterEgo

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? i dont feel i came across poorly to be fair

I think you need to be more self-aware.

No valid ticket - i have a valid monthly ticket and sat in 1st class on the understanding it was declassified, all he had to do was ask me to move

Your ticket is not valid in first class. Therefore you have no valid ticket.

No Money - there is no law stating i must carry money or my card for that matter, i have money thanks just not at the time

No, there is no law stating that, but it is a very silly idea to go into London, spend all your cash, and have have no bank card or other means to pay in case of emergencies. It's so silly in fact that someone who said that to me - if I were an RPI - would raise an eyebrow. Combined with everything else, it would just make me think you were a chancer.

however i did state that i can pay as soon as i meet my partner at the station

Whether this is true or not, it will simply come across as stalling for time. What's to stop you just legging it when the doors open? What guarantees from the RPI's perspective are there that your wife/partner (which is it?) would even be there?

he never explained i had 21 days and didnt need to pay it on the spot

Of course he didn't, you said you weren't going to pay it because it was "ridiculous". He therefore reported you for prosecution.

lied about my address yes

Immediate basis for a RoRA prosecution on this alone. You also stated earlier in the thread you lied about your name too.

The reason you have been reported for prosecution is because you had:

No valid ticket
No money
No means to pay
Gave false details

This could not be clearer I'm afraid.
 

Mem

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I think you need to be more self-aware.



Your ticket is not valid in first class. Therefore you have no valid ticket.



No, there is no law stating that, but it is a very silly idea to go into London, spend all your cash, and have have no bank card or other means to pay in case of emergencies. It's so silly in fact that someone who said that to me - if I were an RPI - would raise an eyebrow. Combined with everything else, it would just make me think you were a chancer.



Whether this is true or not, it will simply come across as stalling for time. What's to stop you just legging it when the doors open? What guarantees from the RPI's perspective are there that your wife/partner (which is it?) would even be there?



Of course he didn't, you said you weren't going to pay it because it was "ridiculous". He therefore reported you for prosecution.



Immediate basis for a RoRA prosecution on this alone. You also stated earlier in the thread you lied about your name too.

The reason you have been reported for prosecution is because you had:

No valid ticket
No money
No means to pay
Gave false details

This could not be clearer I'm afraid.


my wife/partner, refereed to as both, in affect the same thing
He was told i couldnt pay there and then so he had the chance to offer the correct 21 day procedure, was only when he said its on the spot did i call it ridiculous because of that reason
no means to pay? to answer your question as to what stops me legging it, nothing i guess apart from the fact that theres 2 lots of barriers, im known to staff at the station as im local, in all fairness he wasnt to know this but at the same time he should of followed the correct procedure
false details, well yes but i guess like thameslink themself stated, the fact i went straight back to him and corrected things , not ideal no and to be honest thats ther only place i see where i went wrong

should of followed the correct procedure without blocking me in but i see where you are coming from all the same
there are playing factors to all this however
 

JN114

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Many learned members on here have advised you that regrettably you’re in the wrong here. If you want to carry on playing the victim then that’s your prerogative; but I don’t think the prosecutions department will have the degree of sympathy you’re hoping for. As others have stated there is ample to go on for a fare evasion prosecution.

What happened at this point is largely irrelevant. What matters is what GTR/Thameslink do next; and how you respond.
 

NSB2017

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Realistically, you may - and I stress “may” - be able to avoid court if you respond to their letter with a grovelling apology, stressing you accept the attitude you displayed towards the staff member was wholly unacceptable, and offering something like £250 as an out-of-court settlement.
 

Mem

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Realistically, you may - and I stress “may” - be able to avoid court if you respond to their letter with a grovelling apology, stressing you accept the attitude you displayed towards the staff member was wholly unacceptable, and offering something like £250 as an out-of-court settlement.

i kind of agree in a way, let it be known though my attitude was very polite, i did not swear or get the hump, i was polite and spoke in a normal tone of voice, so im failing to understand how my attitude was unaceptable
 

Mem

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Many learned members on here have advised you that regrettably you’re in the wrong here. If you want to carry on playing the victim then that’s your prerogative; but I don’t think the prosecutions department will have the degree of sympathy you’re hoping for. As others have stated there is ample to go on for a fare evasion prosecution.

What happened at this point is largely irrelevant. What matters is what GTR/Thameslink do next; and how you respond.

im not playing the victim! im simply stating what happened
how would you suggest i respond
 

najaB

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@Mem - I hope you haven't been put off by the brusque manner of many of the replies - most posters here aren't deliberately trying to be confrontational, we just want to you to see how your case will look to a hardened member of the revenue protection team. It doesn't, to continue the somewhat harsh tone, look good.

However, there's no reason to abandon hope. As @NSB2017 and a few others have pointed out, TOCs generally are receptive to settle rather than prosecute if they believe that the passenger has learned from their mistake and genuinely wants to make restitution. When you receive the letter, reply as succinctly as you can with an acknowledgement that you were in 1st without a valid ticket, that you will take more care in future to ensure it doesn't happen again and offer to reimburse them for the costs involved in dealing with the matter.

If you want, we're more than willing to proof-read anything that you want to send.
 

Mag_seven

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It's understandable though, given the confused messaging about declassified 1st class on those services which remains marked as 1st class even though it is declassified, and the period last year when they declassified it all at certain times of the day! Until they sort out this this mess and label all their carriages correctly and clearly, surely most passengers are more likely to be confused than to be deliberately evading their fare, and should be given the benefit of the doubt, and either asked to pay the difference or move. How can you have some signs saying first class which are meant to be obeyed, while simultaneously having other identical ones that are meant to be ignored? It wouldn't exactly be hard to have the signs say this is only 1st class if it is at the front of the train, not if it is at the back, or whatever the situation is.

I agree with this - you can also add into the equation the "local" e.g. Sutton services which are declassified throughout - a total recipe for confusion.
 
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