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Modern Railways: LNER and compulsory reservations

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Taunton

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Beyond niche cases where people can't get to their booked seat because it's too rammed (and those cases will be few, and mostly inly involve joining at intermediate stations), you've not identified any benefits to anyone - as things stand, if someone wants to book a seat then they can do so.
Not so few. Apart from peak holiday days, one of the most common causes of gross overcrowding is the previous service being cancelled (or running so late it amounts to the same thing).

How often on normal days do all the southbound services of the day mesh together at say Doncaster in order. In my experience, maybe half the time. What's to be done then? Your booked train from Donny ran into an issue between Aberdeen and Edinburgh, and is two hours late. But here's a service from Leeds running in for London, half full. Are you allowed in or not? And if the Aberdeen originator is now cancelled, what then? A one-hour queue at the sole ticket office window like you get at airports during disruption? If the response is "come back tomorrow" then I can see the police having to be called in short order. What a way to run a customer-facing business.

But in my experience the more likely scenario is it's the train following the cancellation that is packed out. Have people been allowed in? If so in you get, and push through. There's an 80-year old granny sat in your allocated seat. What then?

Silly plan, not thought through with what happens in reality.
 
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Bikeman78

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This is an entirely unsurprising 'development'. LNER have shown their disdain for walk-up passengers in many ways. From removing long-standing permitted routes (e.g. Edinburgh to London via the WCML) to eliminating return tickets, and now this.

Clearly they think they are an airline lumbered with serving such piddling intermediate stations as Stevenage, Peterborough, Doncaster and Berwick. Eminently the inconvenience caused to local passengers doesn't register with them.

What point is there in having a turn up and go frequency if you can't just jump on whichever train you like? Many of the ludicrous walk-up fares are supposedly justified by the high frequency on offer. Not much use if next 2 hours' (or the rest of the day's) trains are fully booked...

The only step remaining in their master plan to make all passengers buy Advance tickets is to eliminate walk-up tickets entirely.

I'm sure they'll soon make a start on that by restricting the ability of walk-up ticket holders to get reservations, e.g. reserving an ever increasing number of carriages and seats for Advance tickets. Trains will be "fully booked" even though Advance tickets are still available.
This will only be a problem on local journeys where LNER is the only TOC. For example, Leeds to Wakefield or Wakefield to Doncaster, there a good chance of not having your ticket checked. If they do turn up and want to kick you off at the next stop, it's not a problem!
 

Taunton

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In a proper world the DfT, not even needing to be chided by the Minister or MPs, would tell the civil servants (which is what they are currently) at LNER where to get off with this one.
 

Watershed

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In a proper world the DfT, not even needing to be chided by the Minister or MPs, would tell the civil servants (which is what they are currently) at LNER where to get off with this one.
Unfortunately the DfT seem to be quite content with experimenting their ideas on the ECML. LNER is no more run by civil servants than Channel 4 is - yes, it is owned by the government but it is run entirely separately on a day to day basis. In LNER's case it is effectively all the same people as VTEC, with a handful of SNC-Lavalin management consultants parachuted in.
 

Mag_seven

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An interesting scenario could occur in times of disruption e.g. train A pulls into platform 1 and develops a fault. Train B (which is full) pulls into the adjacent platform 2 and will proceed first. Is everybody on Train A going to be told they cannot go forward on Train B (even standing) because they don't have reservations for Train B?
 

Hadders

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This will only be a problem on local journeys where LNER is the only TOC. For example, Leeds to Wakefield or Wakefield to Doncaster, there a good chance of not having your ticket checked. If they do turn up and want to kick you off at the next stop, it's not a problem!
It's all very well saying that but if all the passengers travelling between Leeds and Wakefield, Wakefield to Doncaster etc (other local journeys also apply) have to use Northern their trains will be overwhelmed and potentially won't cope.
 

yorksrob

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In normal times, the IC from Leeds soaks up alot of passenger demant towards Wakefield.
 

Watershed

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It's all very well saying that but if all the passengers travelling between Leeds and Wakefield, Wakefield to Doncaster etc (other local journeys also apply) have to use Northern their trains will be overwhelmed and potentially won't cope.
Exactly. And what are the odds that LNER will at some point decide to effectively opt out of accepting PTE or other local tickets on the basis they're "too cheap", by barring reservations for these tickets?

We've already seen reservation discrimination by ticket type in the past - LNER (or was it VTEC at the time?) has previously blocked Off-peak or Super Off-Peak ticket holders from getting a reservation on valid trains, only offering them to Anytime ticket holders. It's hardly a massive leap of imagination.
 

Kite159

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This is an entirely unsurprising 'development'. LNER have shown their disdain for walk-up passengers in many ways. From removing long-standing permitted routes (e.g. Edinburgh to London via the WCML) to eliminating return tickets, and now this.

Clearly they think they are an airline lumbered with serving such piddling intermediate stations as Stevenage, Peterborough, Doncaster and Berwick. Eminently the inconvenience caused to local passengers doesn't register with them.

What point is there in having a turn up and go frequency if you can't just jump on whichever train you like? Many of the ludicrous walk-up fares are supposedly justified by the high frequency on offer. Not much use if next 2 hours' (or the rest of the day's) trains are fully booked...

The only step remaining in their master plan to make all passengers buy Advance tickets is to eliminate walk-up tickets entirely.

I'm sure they'll soon make a start on that by restricting the ability of walk-up ticket holders to get reservations, e.g. reserving an ever increasing number of carriages and seats for Advance tickets. Trains will be "fully booked" even though Advance tickets are still available.

And no doubt those advance tickets will eventually cost more than the walk-up ticket. Especially on the busier flows (no doubt eyeing up being able to charge whatever they like for Sunday afternoon services from Edinburgh to London rather than being capped at the walk-up single price)
 

Watershed

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Isn't this just a way of trying to get people to pay more money?
It certainly moves them along the pathway to charge more than the current walk-up ticket ceilings.

Effectively they want to move away from a model whereby, on busy trains, supply is limited only based on the number of people willing and able to both sit and stand on the train. Prices cannot exceed a given point so people can and do stand.

They want to have the ability to move to a model where instead of having to stand you would simply have to wait at the station until a quieter train. They would simply ramp up the price until people didn't want to pay any more.

Of course you might argue that's how it should be, but I think we all know that the prices won't drop down to bargain basement levels on the empty trains either. It will always be a shift in favour of charging more.
 

backontrack

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It certainly moves them along the pathway to charge more than the current walk-up ticket ceilings.

Effectively they want to move away from a model whereby, on busy trains, supply is limited only based on the number of people willing and able to both sit and stand on the train. Prices cannot exceed a given point so people can and do stand.

They want to have the ability to move to a model where instead of having to stand you would simply have to wait at the station until a quieter train. They would simply ramp up the price until people didn't want to pay any more.

Of course you might argue that's how it should be, but I think we all know that the prices won't drop down to bargain basement levels on the empty trains either. It will always be a shift in favour of charging more.
It seems a particularly inadvisable move considering that First are literally right there and are hoping to compete on decisive flows.
 

Bletchleyite

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We've already seen reservation discrimination by ticket type in the past - LNER (or was it VTEC at the time?) has previously blocked Off-peak or Super Off-Peak ticket holders from getting a reservation on valid trains, only offering them to Anytime ticket holders. It's hardly a massive leap of imagination.

And ATW didn't (and I guess TfW doesn't) do reservations for Advances!

This is more of the sort of dross SNCF comes up with, e.g. quota controls for InterRail passholders. A reservation should be available with ANY valid ticket.
 

Bevan Price

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Except maybe at Kings Cross and one or two other stations, I suspect that compulsory reservations are almost unenforceable. There are never going to be enough staff to stand by every coach door, at every stop, checking tickets before people board. And if you have a valid ticket, how are they going to penalise passengers. Many courts take a dim view of what they regard as bad "Terms & conditions of practice, etc." And the media will "raise h*ll" if TOCs start prosecuting people without reservations.

They (the TOCs) may try it - but the main effect will be bad publicity and resentment from honest travellers.
 

lkpridgeon

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Personally I'd go down the route of getting rid of all seat specific reservations in favour of counted place ones with suggested carriages. Similar to what occurs on South Western railway. It gets rid of the seat conflict, allows for no-shows without being as apparent. Currently for a given LNER journey I need to make 3 reservations to account for my intended train, backup train in case of delays with connections and a later service in case a meeting overruns more than usual/I decide to get food.

During covid I've been using flexible tickets more than what was my usual due to decreased frequencies/adhoc timetable changes to essentially cover my back should something go wrong as there's not much to do at a station for 2 hours waiting for the next service.

I don't think tickets need simplifying all that much barring fixing the cost disparity between a single and a return. Routing could be made more transparent rather than looking like some random legal text. And the flexibility could actually be used as a selling point. I think the railway needs to do better at advertising what they do currently offer and how they can get it.

If I were to be truly radical I would scrap booked train only tickets and instead offer an "any valid train in a given period can be used" offering. To account for unexpected issues and give people a piece of mind rather than me having to explain that they may be entitled to get the next service should they miss their connection due to no fault of their own. The what happens in the event something does to wrong with connections is one of the most frequent questions I get from friends/family over using the train as they just assume they'll be left to sort it out themselves at their own cost as what tends to happen with buses.
 

Bletchleyite

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It will certainly result in more expensive fares on popular trains.

That depends on the pricing model. At present they have compulsory reservations with the existing fares model, and they could continue that, they don't have to go for a "global fare"* ticket=reservation type approach like Eurostar and SNCF do (and it appears First East Coast will).

You can have a quota controlled fares system with a high walk up fare and optional reservations (as DB do - Normalpreis isn't cheap unless you have a BahnCard - in essence their fare system is very much like ours with the Off Peaks abolished and a slightly lower Anytime) or you can have compulsory reservations but the same fare for everyone (as some of the Asian railways do). They're related but you don't have to have one to have the other.

* Not sure what the generic term for that is, but it's known as Globalpreis in a German context and often applies to international night trains. Back in the 90s it was really annoying because TCV international through fares** weren't valid, though I don't believe those are a thing any more.

** In 1999 I had London to Hamburg via Dover, the SeaCat, Oostende and Liege issued on one ticket, valid 2 months with break of journey permitted. Cost me about 90 quid with BIJ EuroYouth discount (a third off, if I recall). Try that now :(
 
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backontrack

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I suppose it's possible it could just be for certain services, not that I like that precedent in of itself.
 

Kite159

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Unless you can change the reservations more easily, you will end up in one busy coach whilst the rest of the train is empty.

Even with someone sitting on the same table as you, but don't worry they are in the aisle so it's ok for social distancing for a long trip.

Northbound train gets cancelled due to a train fault but next few trains to that destination are fully booked, will they simply tell you to wait 5 hours? After all you will most likely be an hour late so will get 100% of your fare back so delaying you 4 more hours won't cost any more money.

Picture the scene, someone at Doncaster is heading to Leeds for a shopping trip, they don't necessarily know what time train they will catch back so will most likely use the northern stopper taking up space away from other passengers from the local stations.
 

bramling

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An interesting scenario could occur in times of disruption e.g. train A pulls into platform 1 and develops a fault. Train B (which is full) pulls into the adjacent platform 2 and will proceed first. Is everybody on Train A going to be told they cannot go forward on Train B (even standing) because they don't have reservations for Train B?

Course not. Which belies the point that this won’t solve the claimed problem of a train being full and a few people being unable to reach their reserved seat, as it will still happen in this situation.

So we’re left with big events - good luck enforcing compulsory reservations when a football stadium (remember them, seems like a lifetime ago?!) has just emptied out and there’s only one or two London trains left that day - and seasonal stuff like the days before Christmas. Hardly worth rejigging everything to cater for that.

I suppose it's possible it could just be for certain services, not that I like that precedent in of itself.

Don’t we already have that, only that it’s not really more than advisory in that they won’t actually prevent people from boarding such services?
 

Bletchleyite

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Don’t we already have that, only that it’s not really more than advisory in that they won’t actually prevent people from boarding such services?

There's the "black R" which is Reservations Recommended, which tends to be the one that gets used, but also the "white R" which is Reservations Compulsory. Before COVID the only place you saw that one was the Cally, though in years gone by it used to apply to a few busier XC services plus (even more years ago) some of the Pullmans (I think).

It definitely is enforced on the Cally (other than when acting as a day train).
 
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43096

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Personally I'd go down the route of getting rid of all seat specific reservations in favour of counted place ones with suggested carriages. Similar to what occurs on South Western railway. It gets rid of the seat conflict, allows for no-shows without being as apparent. Currently for a given LNER journey I need to make 3 reservations to account for my intended train, backup train in case of delays with connections and a later service in case a meeting overruns more than usual/I decide to get food.

During covid I've been using flexible tickets more than what was my usual due to decreased frequencies/adhoc timetable changes to essentially cover my back should something go wrong as there's not much to do at a station for 2 hours waiting for the next service.

I don't think tickets need simplifying all that much barring fixing the cost disparity between a single and a return. Routing could be made more transparent rather than looking like some random legal text. And the flexibility could actually be used as a selling point. I think the railway needs to do better at advertising what they do currently offer and how they can get it.

If I were to be truly radical I would scrap booked train only tickets and instead offer an "any valid train in a given period can be used" offering. To account for unexpected issues and give people a piece of mind rather than me having to explain that they may be entitled to get the next service should they miss their connection due to no fault of their own. The what happens in the event something does to wrong with connections is one of the most frequent questions I get from friends/family over using the train as they just assume they'll be left to sort it out themselves at their own cost as what tends to happen with buses.
Fully agreed. I’d offer a “guaranteed seat” scheme for an extra cost (free for those with reduced mobility), but that would be strictly quota controlled to, say, max of one coach per (long) train.
 

geoffk

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Me too. I'm a considerable business user of their services in normal times, going out in the morning is reasonably predictable, returning in the evening - who knows when we will finish. The train is commonly no more than half full.

Whatever is the point of building up the frequency to "turn up and go", and then saying you can't do that, you must reserve just a specific one.
Or you reserve seats on several homeward trains to allow for an unpredictable finish time, which then means empty seats which cannot be used.
 

Hadders

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That depends on the pricing model. At present they have compulsory reservations with the existing fares model, and they could continue that, they don't have to go for a "global fare"* ticket=reservation type approach like Eurostar and SNCF do (and it appears First East Coast will).

You can have a quota controlled fares system with a high walk up fare and optional reservations (as DB do - Normalpreis isn't cheap unless you have a BahnCard - in essence their fare system is very much like ours with the Off Peaks abolished and a slightly lower Anytime) or you can have compulsory reservations but the same fare for everyone (as some of the Asian railways do). They're related but you don't have to have one to have the other.

* Not sure what the generic term for that is, but it's known as Globalpreis in a German context and often applies to international night trains. Back in the 90s it was really annoying because TCV international through fares** weren't valid, though I don't believe those are a thing any more.

** In 1999 I had London to Hamburg via Dover, the SeaCat, Oostende and Liege issued on one ticket, valid 2 months with break of journey permitted. Cost me about 90 quid with BIJ EuroYouth discount (a third off, if I recall). Try that now :(
With the Treasury and DfT calling the shots there is absolutely no way a revised fares system is going to result in less revenue. If you move to compulsory reservations, and combine it with fares reform/simplification then fares will rise.

They presumably mean “cheaper,” fares, “like they have in Europe.”
That's what the average person will want, problem is once you remove the rose tinted specs the reality will be different.
 

QueensCurve

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There is an article in MR this month in which David Horne as good as says that LNER is likely to keep compulsory reservations permanently. It doesn’t quite say it directly, but rather something like “compulsory reservations will be a part of LNER’s future”, and also alludes to a possibility of Avanti and XC doing the same.

Of course this has upsides and downsides. However I do have a big concern about something else he said, namely, paraphrased, that it would avoid overcrowding by pushing people onto other trains. This seems to me that they’d be more interested in hiding where necessary capacity isn’t provided rather than providing it. This would be an even greater issue with XC, and in disruption.

Does anyone have any thoughts (or even inside insights) into this?
A few minutes ago I just read "If you choose to travel on LNER services, you will need to make a reservation before you travel and you must sit in your designated seat." It gave a gut-wrenchingly horrid feeling to see that.

https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/service_disruptions/266404.aspx
 

Myb

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All trains being full in the week leading up to Christmas is not at all unusual in France, I believe.
This is a frankly terrifying prospect. I almost couldn't make it to work in the inter-lockdown period because of the situation with XC, and that was with the notice my employer had given me. How am I supposed to tell my employer that I can't get across the country to the office because the train is sold out? I'm not lucky enough to be able to expense a taxi 200 miles.

In France, these situations happen more and more often at busy times. Below is a message that says "all trains departing today are full, sales and exchanges are impossible" that was displayed for three days straight in the front of the ticket office in Marseille in Feb 2020 during the school holidays.

IMG_8613.jpg

Another example on January 3rd, 2021 where all trains between Marseille and Toulouse were full with no reservations possible on the day. A friend that had to travel for urgent reasons had to take the car for part of the journey + 2 local trains.

I can only hope there will be a strong resistance to compulsory reservations in the UK, as it will make travel impossible on busy days unless planned well in advance. It will reduce capacity, increase the cost per passenger and make extra services at busy times more expensive to add and thus less likely to be added.
 
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LNW-GW Joint

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I should think HS2 services will be reservation only, as on TGVs.
So compulsory reservations are coming for the WCML, whether we like it or not, extending to northern MML and ECML services with the eastern leg.
 

gka472l

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Not heard anything internally as I work for one of the TOC's mentioned, but I will say that there are plenty of complaints when people are able to purchase tickets when the train is already full.....many people already think a seat comes automatically with any ticket. One of the TOC's booking systems blanks out services when they're fully reserved now with the reduced amount of reservations allowed.....
 
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