Northern timetable plan for May 2018

[TBSchenker]

Mention was made some years ago by Lancashire County Council that Salwick could close if Cottam/Cottam Parkway was built. That project has gone awfully quiet of late so the future of Salwick would seem nonetheless uncertain.

The Northern Train Service Requirement 2 from December shows Salwick has to have 3 services per day each way (M-F for EG) call.

To Preston

1 departure between 0200-0659 arriving Preston no later than 0700
1 departure between 0700-0959
1 departure between 1600-1859 arriving Preston no earlier than 1645

From Preston

1 departure between 0700-0959 departing Preston no later than 0745
1 departure between 1000-1559
1 departure between 1600-1859 departing Preston no earlier than 1730

 

[yorksrob]

Yes both the 2230 and 2300 proposed to stop at Normanton.

That is good news. Thanks.

 

[Chrisyd]

Salford Central to be served late evenings and Sundays.

Finally! This has appeared more of an annomally as this area gets busier at all times (The Finish Line for the Manchester run the other Sunday was 5 minutes walk away and the station was closed).

I assume that these increases will tie in nicely with the platform works, meaning that they then have to re-restrict the opening hours in order to allow them to do the works!

 

[Bevan Price]

Does this mean Disley is staying at 1tph? That's crazy, Disley is not a 'low usage station' like Mobberley is, it is one of the best sited on the line.

Disley passengers heading for Buxton mostly have a wait of about 40 minutes at New Mills Central -- and 30 minutes wait on the return from Buxton. That should just about kill off most of the rail use, and boost loadings on the 199 bus service.

 

[AWK]

Northern fasts will leave Doncaster at xx21 not sure if there we be any changes to TPE or XC.

Cheers. What time will it leave Sheffield heading towards Hull, and is it this timetable change it is extended from Sheffield to Chesterfield?

 

[Bevan Price]

That was expected due to Northern having a franchise requirement to speed up off-peak daytime Mon-Sat services between Chester and Manchester via Altrincham.

I know a certain Mobberley resident will kick up a fuss about that but the reality is Mobberley is a low usage stations and the majority of the usage from it is to Greenbank, Northwich, Knutsford, Hale, Altrincham, Stockport, Manchester where direct services will be retained.

Any passengers for Chester from Ashley, Mobberley, Plumley & Lostck Gralam will mostly have a 24 minute wait (at either Northwich or Greenbank) - and about 40 minute waits returning from Chester.

 

[Starmill]

I believe annual usage of 200,000 or more was required for there to be a franchise requirement of 2tph. (Disley had 170,000 at the time the franchise requirements were set which has since increased to 187,000.) Hale missed out on a franchise requirement for 2tph but Arriva decided it would be beneficial to stop the second service there.

Disley passengers heading for Buxton mostly have a wait of about 40 minutes at New Mills Central -- and 30 minutes wait on the return from Buxton. That should just about kill off most of the rail use, and boost loadings on the 199 bus service.

That's completely crazy. Disley is almost as busy as New Mills Newtown itself, and likely has a greater potential for growth than any other station Hazle Grove - Buxton exclusive, due to it's location.

 

[nr758123]

I believe annual usage of 200,000 or more was required for there to be a franchise requirement of 2tph.

That’s an interesting thought. So why wasn’t there a requirement for 2tph at Mossley (349,000), Greenfield (339,000), Marsden (181,000) & Slaithwaite (213,000)?

Instead it’s an hourly service and from May 2018 a reduction in the number of peak-hour trains.

 

[pemma]

That’s an interesting thought. So why wasn’t there a requirement for 2tph at Mossley (349,000), Greenfield (339,000), Marsden (181,000) & Slaithwaite (213,000)?

Instead it’s an hourly service and from May 2018 a reduction in the number of peak-hour trains.

It was the reasoning used for deciding which stations new additional services should call at. It isn't actually the case that they'll be additional services through Greenfield - 5 x TPE and 1 x Northern will instead by replaced by 6 x TPE with revised calling patterns.

I don't know how peak services are affected but have you allowed for the standard pattern TPE services, as well as the additional peak time only Northern services? If there is a reduction than I imagine it's the same reasoning that was used to cutback 'South Manchester' services when Virgin introduced extra services - we had stations with 400,000+ seeing their direct peak time services to Manchester cut from 2tph to 1tph so that Virgin could introduce an additional hourly Manchester to London service.

 

[lejog]

Yes several services to Wakefield after 10pm last one at 23.30 to Westgate (for stations to Doncaster)

Times from Leeds to Westgate

22.15, 22.30, 22.44, 23.05 to Sheffield
22.22 and 23.30 to Doncaster

To Kirkgate

22.30 and 23.00 to Sheffield

To Westgate and Kirkgate

22.50 to Pontefract Monkhill

Thanks for this, that's in line with the franchise requirement of 9 services after 10pm, up from the current 3. There seem to have been a number of threads and hijacked threads complaining about late night services to Wakefield recently, where any mention that these improvements were due was ignored. When the complaint came up again in this thread it nearly did my head in.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's completely crazy. Disley is almost as busy as New Mills Newtown itself, and likely has a greater potential for growth than any other station Hazle Grove - Buxton exclusive, due to it's location.

Agreed. I can't see a case for skipping any station between Stockport and New Mills except Middlewood (might it actually make sense to stop *nothing* there on weekdays and have it weekend only, as it's basically only used for leisure purposes?). A metro-style perfect clockface half hourly service would have more value than a skip stop one.

 

[scrapy]

Which stations had with 400,000+ passsengers in 2008 when had their services to Manchester cut to 1tph at peak time?

Presumably you are talking about the mid Cheshire line the busiest station Knutsford at the time had approx 298,000 passengers per annum. The trains on this line at the time were the quietest of all the commuter routes (and probably still are) between Stockport and Manchester due to alternative metrolink route available which other routes don't have.

Agree with it or not the major routes between cities will have priority for more services. On routes where fast trains mix with stoppers there will be stations that don't get the services they should. Congleton, Mossley, Greenfield, Blackrod, Adlington Lancs, Eccles in my opinion should all get 2tph all day as minimum but faster links between major stations will always be seen as a priority.

 

[lejog]

Agreed. I can't see a case for skipping any station between Stockport and New Mills except Middlewood (might it actually make sense to stop *nothing* there on weekdays and have it weekend only, as it's basically only used for leisure purposes?). A metro-style perfect clockface half hourly service would have more value than a skip stop one.

That's complete nonsense. Middlewood station is only a 500m walk from the village of the same name and 1km from Higher Poynton both along the disused rail line. It is also readily accessible by bike along this route .

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's complete nonsense. Middlewood station is only a 500m walk from the village of the same name and 1km from Higher Poynton both along the disused rail line. It is also readily accessible by bike along this route .

It is, but usage is very low during the week, hence the two hourly service (hourly at weekends).

It's more likely that anyone from High Lane will drive or cycle to Hazel Grove for the large car park and much increased service there, and Higher Poynton is tiny.

 

[lejog]

It is, but usage is very low during the week, hence the two hourly service (hourly at weekends).

It's more likely that anyone from High Lane will drive or cycle to Hazel Grove for the large car park and much increased service there, and Higher Poynton is tiny.

Higher Poynton is not large, but I travel there on occasions and there are a small but regular band of commuters from the village. What costs savings would there be closing the station on weekdays as you suggest? What benefits would there be? Sheer stupidity, IMHO.

 

[pemma]

Which stations had with 400,000+ passsengers in 2008 when had their services to Manchester cut to 1tph at peak time?

Presumably you are talking about the mid Cheshire line the busiest station Knutsford at the time had approx 298,000 passengers per annum. The trains on this line at the time were the quietest of all the commuter routes (and probably still are) between Stockport and Manchester due to alternative metrolink route available which other routes don't have.

There were a number of routes which were affected by the change - Hazel Grove lost an additional peak service, stations served by the Crewe to Manchester stopper lost a morning peak service and it even finished up that a morning peak extra between Irlam and Oxford Rd was lost because of the need to re-time services which ran between Slade Lane Junction and Deansgate.

Passenger counts done by MCRUA showed that the LENNON data was very inaccurate at the time due to the number of passengers who weren't given an opportunity to buy tickets and who avoided buying tickets, the real figures were believed to be 25%-50% higher, which was accepted by GMPTE, who had doubted the LENNON data for stations on the Airport line but hadn't done any research themselves.

Also the claim that Mid-Cheshire services between Stockport-Manchester were significantly quieter than the others was incorrect. It appeared that claim was based solely on a passenger count on what was then a poorly timed peak time extra between Piccadilly and Chester at around 16:50, which only loaded around 40-50 passengers leaving Piccadilly and they recorded that as a typical loading, when the following and previous services got more than double that.

I take it you haven't traveled via Stockport for a long time. The 16:17 Piccadilly to Chester can leave both Piccadilly and Stockport full and standing, while the 17:23 Piccadilly to Hazel Grove is a 4 car service which is 3/4 empty on leaving Stockport - obviously the majority of passengers who board it alight at Levenshulme, Heaton Chapel and Stockport, which are calls which don't have to be made by a service going to Hazel Grove. Although, I do accept some of the Buxton services are full 4 car services.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Isn't the Levenshulme/Heaton Chapel issue caused by the track layout having been changed to pairing by speed, meaning stopping trains on the fasts in one direction? Or did they not do that? It was sheer madness.

Really, Levvy and Heaton Chapel should be served by a high acceleration EMU service.

 

[scrapy]

There were a number of routes which were affected by the change - Hazel Grove lost an additional peak service, stations served by the Crewe to Manchester stopper lost a morning peak service and it even finished up that a morning peak extra between Irlam and Oxford Rd was lost because of the need to re-time services which ran between Slade Lane Junction and Deansgate.

Passenger counts done by MCRUA showed that the LENNON data was very inaccurate at the time due to the number of passengers who weren't given an opportunity to buy tickets and who avoided buying tickets, the real figures were believed to be 25%-50% higher, which was accepted by GMPTE, who had doubted the LENNON data for stations on the Airport line but hadn't done any research themselves.

Also the claim that Mid-Cheshire services between Stockport-Manchester were significantly quieter than the others was incorrect. It appeared that claim was based solely on a passenger count on what was then a poorly timed peak time extra between Piccadilly and Chester at around 16:50, which only loaded around 40-50 passengers leaving Piccadilly and they recorded that as a typical loading, when the following and previous services got more than double that.

I take it you haven't traveled via Stockport for a long time. The 16:17 Piccadilly to Chester can leave both Piccadilly and Stockport full and standing, while the 17:23 Piccadilly to Hazel Grove is a 4 car service which is 3/4 empty on leaving Stockport - obviously the majority of passengers who board it alight at Levenshulme, Heaton Chapel and Stockport, which are calls which don't have to be made by a service going to Hazel Grove. Although, I do accept some of the Buxton services are full 4 car services.

I'm going off experience of travelling between Manchester and Stockport at the time. This change was in 2008, the 16.17 was a 2 car 142 (Not sure if it still is) and certainly wasn't full from Piccadilly and as I said there was an alternative Metrolink service. Other lines out of Manchester had busy 323 services (which have more than twice the capacity of a 142) that is why the decision was made to chop mid Cheshire services.

 

[pemma]

Isn't the Levenshulme/Heaton Chapel issue caused by the track layout having been changed to pairing by speed, meaning stopping trains on the fasts in one direction? Or did they not do that? It was sheer madness.

Really, Levvy and Heaton Chapel should be served by a high acceleration EMU service.

I thought trains on the fast had to run through Heaton Chapel and Levenshulme due to the fast lines not being adjacent to the platforms.

There are Voyagers, 158s and 185s running on the slows simply because of where they are going and where Northern units are going e.g. you don't want a Sheffield bound service departing Stockport platform 2 at the same time as a Chester service is departing platform 1.

 

[pemma]

I'm going off experience of travelling between Manchester and Stockport at the time. This change was in 2008, the 16.17 was a 2 car 142 (Not sure if it still is) and certainly wasn't full from Piccadilly and as I said there was an alternative Metrolink service. Other lines out of Manchester had busy 323 services (which have more than twice the capacity of a 142) that is why the decision was made to chop mid Cheshire services.

There wasn't a 16:17 service before the December 2008 recast.

The Mid-Cheshire services departed at xx:24 and arrived at Stockport at xx:34, while there was a XC service departing at xx:24 and arriving at Stockport at xx:32 so Stockport passengers were told to use the XC service by the Piccadilly departure boards. On the other hand Macclesfield services (the busiest 323 route via Stockport) started at Deansgate so had loads of passengers travelling between Manchester and Stockport.

Even in 2008 the Mid-Cheshire peak time extras still carried more passengers for beyond Stockport from Piccadilly than the Alderley Edge and Hazel Grove services (not including services continuing towards Crewe and Buxton.)

Anyway this has nothing to do with the May 2018 recast.

 

[Greybeard33]

That was expected due to Northern having a franchise requirement to speed up off-peak daytime Mon-Sat services between Chester and Manchester via Altrincham.

I know a certain Mobberley resident will kick up a fuss about that but the reality is Mobberley is a low usage stations and the majority of the usage from it is to Greenbank, Northwich, Knutsford, Hale, Altrincham, Stockport, Manchester where direct services will be retained.

But Navigation Road is a well used station, having a free car park, unlike Altrincham and Hale. It will be possible to use Metrolink to connect at Altrincham, but that will incur the Metrolink fare on top of the National Rail fare.

Also westbound travellers will have to allow extra time to minimise the risk of a missed connection, in view of the unreliability of Metrolink's advertised headways.

 

[ashworth]

Will Blackpool eventually have no regular service to Manchester Victoria?
I've seen the mention, after electrification, of 4 trains an hour to/from Blackpool North as being Manchester Airport, Macclesfield, Liverpool and York. Perhaps I've missed it but I can't see anything to Manchester Victoria.

 

[yorksrob]

Thanks for this, that's in line with the franchise requirement of 9 services after 10pm, up from the current 3. There seem to have been a number of threads and hijacked threads complaining about late night services to Wakefield recently, where any mention that these improvements were due was ignored. When the complaint came up again in this thread it nearly did my head in.

Neither the public franchise consultation, nor the DfT's website made any mention of a later service to Normanton, so this is indeed fresh and welcome news.

 

[pemma]

But Navigation Road is a well used station, having a free car park, unlike Altrincham and Hale. It will be possible to use Metrolink to connect at Altrincham, but that will incur the Metrolink fare on top of the National Rail fare.

Also westbound travellers will have to allow extra time to minimise the risk of a missed connection, in view of the unreliability of Metrolink's advertised headways.

Altrincham does have a small station car park which is free for rail users. (Of course being small and free it's usually full.) Hale has a council owned car park right next to the station the charge used to be 50p for all day - I'm not sure if it still is.

For off-peak Manchester bound trains you can usually count on one hand all the passengers boarding at Navigation Road, while at Hale you'd normally need three hands and Hale only just managed to get a call on the additional service. Although, saying that while I've used the train to Hale I can't think of any journeys I've made to Hale which have been essential, while I have made a couple of essential trips to Navigation Road.

 

[pemma]

Will Blackpool eventually have no regular service to Manchester Victoria?
I've seen the mention, after electrification, of 4 trains an hour to/from Blackpool North as being Manchester Airport, Macclesfield, Liverpool and York. Perhaps I've missed it but I can't see anything to Manchester Victoria.

Is there a reason why Blackpool needs a service to Victoria (or Salford Central)? Prior to the 2008 recast Blackpool-Manchester services went to Piccadilly, with the exception of an odd peak time extra.

 

[Ianno87]

Is there a reason why Blackpool needs a service to Victoria (or Salford Central)? Prior to the 2008 recast Blackpool-Manchester services went to Piccadilly, with the exception of an odd peak time extra.

But 2008 upped the total Preston-Manchester frequency from 3tph (plus 1 XC per 2 hours) to 4tph. The Blackpool-Victoria was effectively the extra service, which had to head to Victoria due to insufficient paths via Oxford Rd. It's not specifically to fulfil any need to link Blackpool to Victoria as such (though one peak return working did exist pre-2008)

 

[pemma]

But 2008 upped the total Preston-Manchester frequency from 3tph (plus 1 XC per 2 hours) to 4tph. The Blackpool-Victoria was effectively the extra service, which had to head to Victoria due to insufficient paths via Oxford Rd. It's not specifically to fulfil any need to link Blackpool to Victoria as such (though one peak return working did exist pre-2008)

Northern had to introduce an extra Victoria-Preston service (due to the requirement for an extra service and where paths were available.) They chose to run a Hazel Grove to Preston service instead of Buxton to Blackpool as they thought the former would improve reliability, which meant the extra service had to run to Blackpool.

 

[Bevan Price]

Proposed Blackpool North off-peak departures from May 2018

xx:04 Liverpool Lime St. (calls Poulton, Kirkham, Preston and as now to Lime St)
xx:22 York (Poulton, Preston, Blackburn, Accrington, etc.)
xx:27 Manchester Airport (Layton, Poulton, Kirkham, Preston; omits Leyland & Lostock)
xx:59 Macclesfirld..(Poulton, Preston, all stations to Bolton; south of Manchester omits Levenshulme, Heaton Chapel, Adlington (Cheshire) & Prestbury.)

and Blackpool South
xx:13 Preston (All stations except Salwick; 5 minute connection onto York service at Preston)

Preston
xx:04 Manchester Victoria (all stations to Bolton)
xx:26 Ormskirk (all stations)
xx:57 Colne (all stations)

 

[Jamesrob637]

There were a number of routes which were affected by the change - Hazel Grove lost an additional peak service, stations served by the Crewe to Manchester stopper lost a morning peak service and it even finished up that a morning peak extra between Irlam and Oxford Rd was lost because of the need to re-time services which ran between Slade Lane Junction and Deansgate.

Passenger counts done by MCRUA showed that the LENNON data was very inaccurate at the time due to the number of passengers who weren't given an opportunity to buy tickets and who avoided buying tickets, the real figures were believed to be 25%-50% higher, which was accepted by GMPTE, who had doubted the LENNON data for stations on the Airport line but hadn't done any research themselves.

Also the claim that Mid-Cheshire services between Stockport-Manchester were significantly quieter than the others was incorrect. It appeared that claim was based solely on a passenger count on what was then a poorly timed peak time extra between Piccadilly and Chester at around 16:50, which only loaded around 40-50 passengers leaving Piccadilly and they recorded that as a typical loading, when the following and previous services got more than double that.

I take it you haven't traveled via Stockport for a long time. The 16:17 Piccadilly to Chester can leave both Piccadilly and Stockport full and standing, while the 17:23 Piccadilly to Hazel Grove is a 4 car service which is 3/4 empty on leaving Stockport - obviously the majority of passengers who board it alight at Levenshulme, Heaton Chapel and Stockport, which are calls which don't have to be made by a service going to Hazel Grove. Although, I do accept some of the Buxton services are full 4 car services.

The 17:23 from Picc to Hazel Grove is a 323 but who knows for how much longer? It's my regular train home but you're right it's almost empty by Stockport

If you want Stockport only, you're best off taking the 17:27 Cross Country, the 17:30 Arriva or even the 17:20 TPE if you can make that after a 5pm finish in the office and a punctual getaway.

 

[Greybeard33]

Altrincham does have a small station car park which is free for rail users. (Of course being small and free it's usually full.) Hale has a council owned car park right next to the station the charge used to be 50p for all day - I'm not sure if it still is.

For off-peak Manchester bound trains you can usually count on one hand all the passengers boarding at Navigation Road, while at Hale you'd normally need three hands and Hale only just managed to get a call on the additional service. Although, saying that while I've used the train to Hale I can't think of any journeys I've made to Hale which have been essential, while I have made a couple of essential trips to Navigation Road.

I was referring to the loss of direct services from Navigation Road to Chester. I think railheaders will be more likely to drive all the way to Cuddington/Delamere/Mouldsworth/Chester, rather than trying to park in Altrincham or Hale, or taking the Metrolink to Altrincham.