Open Access

[OMGitsDAVE]

Hello.
I've just decided to make a thread about Open Access Operators. What routes would you say should be ran by an Open Access Operator, or which new routes would you like to be implemented.
You can use this template to word your answer:
Destinations: (2 stations)
Via: (as many stations)
How often? (Hourly, daily, etc)
Why this route?
What train would you use for this route?


*** Edit with Type of train

 

[generalvegitable]

University Travel (why not?)
Destinations: Oxford, Cambridge
Via: Milton Keynes/Bletchley or any station in the MK area
How often? about hourly or whenever they can get the paths
Why this route? A stagecoach bus travels a similar route, I think it would be better done as a train service

 

[First class]

I've actually started a business plan for a very small OAO. Not really looked at it for a few months now, but I did and do have support.

What type of operator:

1) Industrial and Provident Society (for the benefit of the community, or co-operative). These are expensive to set up and not so user friendly, but highly democratic and able to raise social investment through a low cost share issue.
2) Community Interest Company limited by guarantee. This involves a modest level of regulation, but is reasonably cheap and easy to set up on a DIY basis.
3) Company limited by guarantee. Very cheap, and suitable for a wide range of purposes - however, this very flexibility means that there is no way of preventing it from doing things you might not want in the future.

Helsby - Hooton shuttle every 30mins. This would use new build class 139 stock. The manufacturer visited the line and confirmed the line was suitable for it to work. I originally had thought of getting a class 121, but considering my target audience, something new and modern seemed more appropriate.

Final response from the manufacturer:

The purpose was to ascertain the suitability of the Parry People Mover, (PPM), concept for providing a regular service on the line.

Summary:-

1) The track quality, part jointed and part continuous weld, is in a condition which would allow a comfortable ride.
2) Track layouts at Ellesmere Port and Helsby would not require any alterations as there are crossovers already in place to accommodate the existing service.
3) There are no conflicts with Merseyrail services which terminate at Ellesmere Port and which only use the down Helsby platform. The third rail ends a few meters beyond the Helsby end of the platform.
4) Some small trackwork would probably be necessary to provide a maintenance and servicing depot. Re-connecting Exchange siding at Helsby may be suitable for this purpose. It should be noted that such a Depot, capable of accommodating the two PPM units which would be required for operating a service, does not require the large expenditure required by heavy rail vehicles.
5) The PPM runs on LPG, (liquid petroleum gas), which needs to be available at the trackside in cylinders.
6) The PPM is lightweight construction, has a hybrid power supply and a patented energy storage system which enables the vehicle to recover kinetic energy when braking and then re-use it to accelerate away from stops, (regenerative braking).
7) Maximum speed 45 mph, 50 passengers, distances up to 10 miles, running cost £1.30 per hour and vehicle cost £340k each.
8) With the exception of the secondary transmission which is being engineered by
Linde Hydraulics, all major components are sourced in the U.K. The complete body assembly, framework cladding, internal trim, wiring harness and the fitting-out of the driver's cab is in the hands of North West Bus & Coach Repairs of Leyland and Blackburn. Clayton Equipment of Burton-on-Trent look after the mainframe and Power Torque Engineering, a Ford specialist, handle the power pack. Other components come from Chard, in Somerset, and Stourbridge, West Midlands.


Merseytravel, NWDA and Quinn Glass all expressed their interest in the project.

My sticking point got to stations- Ince & Elton/ Stanlow & Thornton had been fairly neglected and forgotten stations until my RUG got involved. Network Rail painted over the graffiti, replaced the level crossing and cleaned the track up.

Part of my proposals involved me taking control of these two stations and being the 'operator' instead of Northern. This would have suited Northern as they are not in a good position- sort of outside the general network. Nobody could confirm whether it was possible for an OAO to do so. The DfT basically said it would be a matter for ORR. ORR said they were investigating the proposal, but said they would not be able to answer my specific query and that I should wait for a OAO Starter Pack which was currently being developed.

Nobody says an OAO has to be intercity! This was a very cheap, easy and beneficial project which will more than likely be shelved unless I can find more meaningful support.

 

[OMGitsDAVE]

Very interesting there ste.

 

[TDK]

Hello.
I've just decided to make a thread about Open Access Operators. What routes would you say should be ran by an Open Access Operator, or which new routes would you like to be implemented.
You can use this template to word your answer:
Destinations: (2 stations)
Via: (as many stations)
How often? (Hourly, daily, etc)
Why this route?
What train would you use for this route?


*** Edit with Type of train

Unless you utilse the WCML or the ECML you will run at a loss & until 2012 the WCML is tied up with VT, personally I think the network is too congested currently to compete with the TOC's, it's nice to propose someting or even plan it however you need a strong backer and loads of cash to pull it off.

 

[OMGitsDAVE]

Unless you utilse the WCML or the ECML you will run at a loss & until 2012 the WCML is tied up with VT, personally I think the network is too congested currently to compete with the TOC's, it's nice to propose someting or even plan it however you need a strong backer and loads of cash to pull it off.

I wasn't thinking about starting an OAO, but it was just out of curiosity and could help future managers.

 

[TDK]

Nobody says an OAO has to be intercity! This was a very cheap, easy and beneficial project which will more than likely be shelved unless I can find more meaningful support.

When you say cheap how long will it take to be in profit considering the recruiment of staff, the stock, the track access fees, the law fees etc. etc. With such a small passenger base it looks good on paper but in reality unless you spend a fortune in advertising in the outset it will be years before it breaks even. It is fine companies showing interest but when it comes down to forking out cash it seems they tend to dwindle away
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I wasn't thinking about starting an OAO, but it was just out of curiosity and could help future managers.

The only route I can see viable is shadowing VT from any major city to London & we all know that is not possible

 

[First class]

The line could be made profitable fairly easily- after around 5 years the line should be pretty much in profit.

It is a good market because there is no transport link currently- other than a very unreliable hourly bus service that starts late and finishes early M-Sa with no service on Sunday.

The areas are developing very quickly- and Helsby station is currently over-run with cars, there is absolutely nowhere to park there after 7.30am!

Quinn Glass was the only firm that said we would give you £x amount of money in return for a x% stake. The amount of money in question would have bought our fleet of 3 PPMs. A company was going to donate a shunter to us- but we were not in a position to accept and it was hence scrapped.

I also had plans for a sleeper between the Highlands and Holyhead/Liverpool. These would be advertised as connecting with ferries to Ireland/Isle of Man and would have special through fares. I may have posted the planned timetable for these on this forum.

 

[anthony263]

A good route for an open acess opertaor would be:

Cardiff - Hereford - Shrewsbury - Crewe - Liverpool, operating at least every 2 hours monday - saturdays with at least 3 trains on sundays and there are paths available for this.

This should get the support from a lot of people including the Welsh Assembly if it means that there will be new jobs for people etc.

stock could be used are:

mark 2/3 stock with or without a dvt being hauled by class 37's or any other locomtoives or if not purchase some class 170 dmu's.

This route will be financially viable especially if any member have seen how full the manchester - milford haven services are sometimes and since a lot people do travel from cardiff to manchester then maybe you could attaract a lot of people to visit liverpool

 

[The Planner]

You can do that already with a change at Crewe ??

 

[Max]

You can do that already with a change at Crewe ??

You could do Hull-London easily with 1 change before Hull Trains came along, but it didn't stop them from being very successful! I think people often underestimate the impact direct trains make. Passengers tend to hate the hassle of a change!

 

[glynn80]

You could do Hull-London easily with 1 change before Hull Trains came along, but it didn't stop them from being very successful! I think people often underestimate the impact direct trains make. Passengers tend to hate the hassle of a change!

Are they actually that profitable? I suppose we can assume they must be reasonably profitable to continue operating the service, but does anyone have any figures that show their profitability. An equal point can be made for both Grand Central and Wrexham & Shropshire.

The majority of revenue from direct train services would be from ORCATS favouring these services over those with changes at intermediate stations. That does not prove success in passenger numbers, just that they are able to exploit the revenue allocation system to keep their services viable.

This article explains the situation for Grand Central at a time when they had a ridiculously low punctuality and reliability but were still able to issue a profit share (http://www.journallive.co.uk/north-...re-despite-rail-line-problems-61634-20924121/).

 

[221_108]

Birmingham-London Heathrow

Birmingham International, Oxford and Reading (Pick up only)

Two hourly service starting at 04:00 with last train departing LHR at 00:30

It’s a nightmare to get directly to Heathrow cheaply & conveniently, you can go via London with VT but it can be horrendously expensive and has minimum of two changes thus being a real pain with luggage as is the same with CrossCountry, you still have to change at Reading and then change again onto the Heathrow Connect. If we want less domestic flights and long haul operators don’t want to use airports outside of London then there needs to be a decent, frequent service between cities to encourage people to ‘let the train take the strain’.

Would start from Birmingham as it is a logical hub for such a service, then look at extending it from Manchester and Liverpool and then maybe other London airports.

Would ideally want Mk2/3 with 3 classes of accommodation with an 'airline feel', serving meals to in the first and club classes with optional meals in economy, 5-6 members of staff, airline like boarding system on the platform. Large comfortable seats and possibly fully reclinable in first class with a carriage or two for luggage. However a DEMU such as an 8 car Voyager/Merdian would be acceptable.

 

[MCR247]

Whyy would you need an airline like boarding system? Are they going to have to Check in as well? Seriously, I think its a great idea, but maybe service Nottingham/Derby aswell, but I think Oxford & Reading have an acceptable service. I think 2 classes is enough though. It'd be great if BAA supported it, and you could get really Hi'Tech trains where you could check in onboard the train, so you could go almost straight to the plane, allowing you to leave later. Or even give them your baggage, and it goes straight to the plane

Ok, I'll calm down now

 

[90019]

Or even give them your baggage, and it goes straight to the plane

I'm sure you can do that with the Gatwick Express (Or Heathrow Express, I forget which), you can check your bags in at the station, and they go straight through to the plane.

 

[asylumxl]

International Super Express XXL Nitro ROFLPMPLOMFG HD Pod

Destinations: London Kings Cross, Glasgow Central
Via: Stevenage, Doncaster, Scunthorpe, Doncaster, Hull, Doncaster, St Pancras International, Brussels, St Pancras International, Market Harborough, Leeds, Newcastle, Carlisle, Aberdeen, Edinburgh, Elstree and Borehamwood, Doncaster, Swansea, Doncaster, St Albans Abbey, Glasgow
How often? (Hourly, daily, etc): Daily, but always leaves 30 minutes early.
Why this route: Why not? Hilarity.
What train would you use for this route? Class 220s - Toilets unfixed. Class 142s when more capacity is needed.

(Just trying to give some people a laugh )

 

[ChrisTheRef]

You can do that already with a change at Crewe ??

I think a lot is psychological. A 'Joe Public' passenger is going to be much more conscious of being able to take the train to Liverpool if they walk through the station and hear "THE TRAIN NOW STANDING AT PLATFORM 3 FORMS THE 13:46 ARRIVA TRAINS WALES SERVICE TO LIVERPOOL LIME STREET"
I bet if you re-routed the Manchester train to Liverpool instead, a lot of people who use the existing service would stop doing so.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

How about these, all to be operated as fast links between these points:-

Sheffield - Leeds - (via the S&C) - Carlisle - Glasgow C.
and NOT stopping at intermediate stations.

Or:-

Stranraer (timed to sync with the Northern Ireland Ferries)
to Manchester
to Crewe
to Newcastle
to Glasgow then Stirling, and,
Glasgow then Edinburgh
all stopping only at major intermediate stations.

Or:-

Leicester - Crewe - Liverpool
(or even Cambridge - Peterborough - Leicester - Crewe - Liverpool)

Or:-
Brighton - Southampton - Bristol

These all seem to have some strategic or economic value but don't operate effectively at present, perhaps partly because they cross regional territories.

Also, I had been thinking about a slower service whose main feature was lots of reversals - I can't recall it at the moment but it included:
Sunderland - Middlesbrough - Harrogate - Huddersfield in the north, and, Heathrow - Gatwick - Brighton - Hove in the south.

 

[anthony263]

How about a direct Bournmouth - north west of england, taking the route of the service which crosscountry withdrew back in december

 

[TDK]

A good route for an open acess opertaor would be:

Cardiff - Hereford - Shrewsbury - Crewe - Liverpool, operating at least every 2 hours monday - saturdays with at least 3 trains on sundays and there are paths available for this.

This should get the support from a lot of people including the Welsh Assembly if it means that there will be new jobs for people etc.

stock could be used are:

mark 2/3 stock with or without a dvt being hauled by class 37's or any other locomtoives or if not purchase some class 170 dmu's.

This route will be financially viable especially if any member have seen how full the manchester - milford haven services are sometimes and since a lot people do travel from cardiff to manchester then maybe you could attaract a lot of people to visit liverpool

Class 37's are a waste of time as they are not reliable enough, need to be looked on as a passenger and not an enthusiast. Class 170's are OK. Shrewsbury is almost to capacity. Wales and borders used to run a service to Liverpool but this was taken off them when ATW won the franchise. It is in direct competition with ATW from Cardiff to Crewe and then in competition with LM from Crewe. Would be difficult getting the ORR consent I thinks

 

[OMGitsDAVE]

Class 37's are a waste of time as they are not reliable enough, need to be looked on as a passenger and not an enthusiast. Class 170's are OK. Shrewsbury is almost to capacity. Wales and borders used to run a service to Liverpool but this was taken off them when ATW won the franchise. It is in direct competition with ATW from Cardiff to Crewe and then in competition with LM from Crewe. Would be difficult getting the ORR consent I thinks

Precisely what I thought. To run long-ish routes, such as Newcastle - York I would use a 185, as TPE Seem to get away with it, and their ratings are still high. I mean the 185s do Glasgow & Edinburgh - Manchester Airport so they're good enough.

 

[stut]

Undoubtedly impractical, but:

Heathrow to Reading, reversing at Hayes and Harlington, calling at Hayes, Slough, Maidenhead and Tywford. Of course, you wouldn't want diesel in the spangly Heathrow tunnels, so you'd have to do something creative and technically impossible, possibly with a 350 and a 185. Who knows?

Heathrow to Gatwick, calling at Ealing Broadway, Shepherd's Bush, West Brompton, Kensington Olympia, Clapham Junction, Balham, East Croydon and Gatwick. God only knows what rolling stock.

Ipswich - Milton Keynes. Shadowing the Liverpool St to Peterborough route, then Stamford, Oakham, Corby, Kettering, Wellingborough, Bedford Midland Rd, Bletchley, Milton Keynes Central. 170s or 185s. Undoubtedly objectionable and too slow to be useful, but you never know, it could work as an early East-West.

 

[generalvegitable]

Undoubtedly impractical, but:
Ipswich - Milton Keynes. Shadowing the Liverpool St to Peterborough route, then Stamford, Oakham, Corby, Kettering, Wellingborough, Bedford Midland Rd, Bletchley, Milton Keynes Central. 170s or 185s. Undoubtedly objectionable and too slow to be useful, but you never know, it could work as an early East-West.

well if the DFT actually care about users then they will reopen the bedford to sandy route, and it would be useful, I would use it to get to that area

 

[stut]

I'd love to see the original proposed East-West route to open (Bletchley - Bedford - Sandy - Arlesey - Letchworth - Cambridge), or even the old route through Potton and Gamlingay, as I live in Biggleswade, and direct trains to Cambridge, Bedford and MK would be quite stunningly useful for me.

However, the route via Luton and/or the route to Stansted seems to be looking more likely now. Which is a great shame, although probably far more useful in terms of strategic links (particularly to the airports) and passenger numbers.

Of course, in an ideal world, we could have both
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Another thought is to have a CityNightLine style sleeper (not the Spruce Goose style NightStar originally planner) pootling off from St Pancras in the evening, sending kurswagen off to points across Europe (the German cities, Switzerland, Austria, northern Italy - possibly even near Central Europe), possibly tagging along on the back of other EuroNight or EuroCity services.

HS1 could handle the double-decker CNL carriages, and they have the right mix of facilities for business and leisure travel. The biggest problems are the security farce (at the destinations) and the additional Eurotunnel requirements for fire doors, splittable trains, etc. Not insurmountable.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Company: NFR (No Frills Rail)

Route: Liverpool-Leeds (possibly York)

Calling at: Wavertree Technology Park, Huyton, Newton Le Willows, Eccles, Manchester Victoria, Stalybridge, Huddersfield, Leeds.

Frequency: Hourly (peak times vary)

Stock: Class 313 EMU, running in pairs (the line is in the current plans to be electrified and class 313s will soon become surplus)

Class of travel: Standard only (first class sections could be fitted at a later date if the need arises)

I think an hourly service is possible on this corridor, but I am unsure about the junctions at Leeds/York and Ordsall Lane. Currently there is one direct service between Liverpool and Leeds. Journey time estimated as similar to existing service.

 

[me123]

Sheffield - Leeds - (via the S&C) - Carlisle - Glasgow C.
and NOT stopping at intermediate stations.

I'd do that as well. 4 trains a day would be a good starting point IMO. I'd also add a call at Wakefield Westgate/Kirkgate (depends which route it would take), Lockerbie and perhaps some busier stations on the Leeds-Carlisle section, maybe just Settle and Appleby.

I'd also like to see a few trains Dover-Birmingham to connect with the ferries. The service is partly operated by XC, but at the moment the whole journey relies on a cross-London transfer.

 

[GNERman]

and what of skipton and keighley...

 

[Spaceflower]

Great Central (or something similar)

Glasgow
Kilmarnock g
Dumfries g
Carlisle
Appleby l
Skipton l
Keighley l
Leeds
Wakefield
Sheffield
St Pancras (connecting with European services)

HST

Running several times of the day at peak times for commuting to both Leeds and Glasgow and longer distance travel to London/Europe and elsewhere connecting at vLondon, Sheffield, Leeds, Carlisle and Glasgow.

Markets:
Dumfries & Kilmarnock to Glasgow, London plus elsewhere.
Appleby, Skipton, Keighley to Leeds, London and elsewhere
Glasgow/Carlisle- Leeds/Sheffield
Sheffield - London?
Tourism SW Scotland and Yorkshire Dales/Pennines

 

[GNERman]

that's good BUT how long will that take
i think at least 5 hours...

 

[OMGitsDAVE]

For some reason, I think Grand Central could run local services from Middlesbrough to feed on to the network at either Eaglescliffe or Hartlepool - although Hartlepool has a turning point (the bay), and this train would call at:

To Eaglescliffe:
Thornaby, Eaglescliffe

To Hartlepool:
Thornaby, Stockton, Billingham, Seaton Carew & Hartlepool.

This train could arrive at the destination around 20 minutes before the London/Sunderland service arrives, allowing on-station businesses to flourish. The local train would take 45 Minutes (on average) from Middlesbrough to Hartlepool, and so a train could run every two hours with a 15-minute wait each time allowing ample time for staff changes. This service would be a feeder for the main service, but also a service to help deal with overcrowding issues.

The service would perhaps be ran by one of the 180's that would not be in service. It definately has the popularity to do so, as the coast line is VERY busy between Middlesbrough & Hartlepool. Then Hartlepool - Sunderland & Newcastle, which is ran by NORTHERN - therefore not chipping in to profits, and will not call at any main GC Stations except Hartlepool or Eaglescliffe.