Why are you assuming that the single would stay the same price? That has not been the case with Oyster, which is why people have been pointing out that the new Gatwick Express single fare is an anomaly. For your example, I would expect the single to change to between £6.60 and £7 to keep it revenue neutral. Indeed, my beef is particularly with fares like you quote, where the single is virtually the same price as the return.
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Oyster to Gatwick
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Why are you assuming that the single would stay the same price? That has not been the case with Oyster, which is why people have been pointing out that the new Gatwick Express single fare is an anomaly. For your example, I would expect the single to change to between £6.60 and £7 to keep it revenue neutral. Indeed, my beef is particularly with fares like you quote, where the single is virtually the same price as the return.
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R
RailUK Forums
Ah, I didn't know that. I still think, though, that for many a fixed Oyster deposit would be preferable to transaction charges.
IslandDweller
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FX transaction fees are flagged as a big deal but are they? If you instead draw out cash to pay for your tickets, you get hit on the exchange rate. Unless you're best mates with the head of dealing at mega-bank-Corp, you'll get a poor rate on your cash exchange. Net-net, paying a small fee for the convenience of using contactless is unlikely to cost more than pennies for most people.
It doesn't bother me either way whilst travelling as I use banks that charge no fee or foreign exchange spread. However, most cards do have charges like that.
Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
I'd disagree with that, at least in London. There's usually two or three different ways of getting to the same place, depending on where you are travelling from, and journey patterns can be more complex than simple out-and-back trips. When I lived in Muswell Hill I caught the train from Harringay in the morning but returned home on the Northern Line to Highgate. I'm sure I wasn't alone in that.
Foreign tourists will probably use the £3 tourist Oyster, which has no deposit, and it's more convenient to just load it up and not think about it. UK based passengers in London will usually have an Oyster already (most people in London will do), or will have contactless, so again it'll be more convenient than queuing at the machine.
As for contactless fees, there's probably not a huge difference between the bank charges and the reduced exchange rate you get at most bureaux de change.
I think a certain amount of people buy returns even if they only need singles as returns are not that much more expensive so might as well.
I've done so when it's 5 or 10p but not always, for obvious reasons (paying for a ticket you don't need).
But I bet we've all been caught out where we only needed a single, then something happens and you now need to go back by train - and now you're stuffed having to buy another single.
But I bet we've all been caught out where we only needed a single, then something happens and you now need to go back by train - and now you're stuffed having to buy another single.
Your bet is lost - I have never been caught out in that way
.I have, though, on a number of occasions bought a return but have then been offered a lift back and so have not used the return portion
Another way people buy returns when they shouldn't really be buying them is when they make triangular trips by buying two returns instead of three singles to save money. For example, if someone is going from London to Manchester to Liverpool to London, if they don't want or can't get Advances, they might get a return from London to Manchester and a return from Manchester to Liverpool. So they waste time and travel unnecessary distance by travelling back through Manchester instead of travelling direct to London, because the alternative of buying three walk on singles is priced exorbitantly. Other people will look at the three single price and decide to drive instead. Excesses can be used to make triangular trips more affordable but hardly anyone knows about them.
Until recently London to Liverpool was valid via Manchester....
I don't always buy returns, especially during leaf fall season or another period of network turbulence as it cuts the potential Delay Repay you might get
swt_passenger
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I see this news has now reached the District Dave forum, where in a recent detailed post someone explains that all Oyster PAYG travel from Gatwick to London will be charged at the 'Express' rate. Therefore do not touch PAYG with a bargepole cos you'll be ripped off big time.
Obviously not in possession of the full story as discussed here then. Anyone here got a District Dave log-in and could put them right?
Obviously not in possession of the full story as discussed here then. Anyone here got a District Dave log-in and could put them right?
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IslandDweller
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I'd assumed that Oyster to Gatwick would come on-line on 2 January, to coincide with the fare revision date.
Does anyone know if that actually is the date when it starts? Or is this still in the "we don't know yet" category?
Does anyone know if that actually is the date when it starts? Or is this still in the "we don't know yet" category?
Last week, as the southbound train approached East Croydon an announcement was made along the lines of "This is the last stop at which Oyster is valid. If you are using an Oyster card please leave the train here". As we approached Gatwick Airport exactly the same announcement was made. So it would seem an Oyster is not valid to Gatwick, but if you stay on the train after East Croydon it is !
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I don't think so. TfL fare revision page says "Later in January, pay as you go (with a contactless payment or Oyster card) will be accepted for travel to Gatwick Airport."
tsr
Established Member
Over the last few minutes I've been wondering idly if this is actually a more pressing reason for Oyster at Gatwick: relieving queues of inbound tourists and other passengers due to increased penalties.
As far as I understand it, GTR - as the holder of the TSGN contract - gets levied with various penalties for problems with station facilities, such as overly lengthy queues and suchlike, which may presumably be having more of an impact than under the old Southern a.k.a. GX management. Christmas is traditionally an extremely busy time for Gatwick Airport, but services are majorly amended this Christmas due to Purley works; during blockades, station facilities at Gatwick conform to the same space but the layout can change drastically (there's a very long manual detailing this for each blockade). By the time these are over, Oyster and Contactless should have been tested and public implementation will be close. This will be in time for the inevitable summer holiday traffic in 2016 and hopefully crowd control improving with Oyster and contactless being "ready to go" for many arriving tourists will help with the performance of the station in accordance with the franchise.
I don't know what the penalties are, but I can well imagine they are not inconsequential. Adding Oyster and contactless may prove to be a quick fix and also decrease ticket queue complaints - with fares being kept pretty high...
As far as I understand it, GTR - as the holder of the TSGN contract - gets levied with various penalties for problems with station facilities, such as overly lengthy queues and suchlike, which may presumably be having more of an impact than under the old Southern a.k.a. GX management. Christmas is traditionally an extremely busy time for Gatwick Airport, but services are majorly amended this Christmas due to Purley works; during blockades, station facilities at Gatwick conform to the same space but the layout can change drastically (there's a very long manual detailing this for each blockade). By the time these are over, Oyster and Contactless should have been tested and public implementation will be close. This will be in time for the inevitable summer holiday traffic in 2016 and hopefully crowd control improving with Oyster and contactless being "ready to go" for many arriving tourists will help with the performance of the station in accordance with the franchise.
I don't know what the penalties are, but I can well imagine they are not inconsequential. Adding Oyster and contactless may prove to be a quick fix and also decrease ticket queue complaints - with fares being kept pretty high...
How does it relieve overcrowding at Victoria?
Also how do they workout when queues are to long? Does someone review the CCTV of the queues? Could Southern just make something up? Not saying they would.
From speaking with a friend, I know people are paid to review Sky Sports broadcasted football matches to see how long advertising boards are displayed so they can claim the advertising revenue. Well it's something like that.
londonbridge
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Going by the above from earlier in the thread, someone with a 1-5 travelcard touches in and boards a Gatwick train at East Croydon, an extension fare would be £5.20 then?
I'd be surprised if it were that simple.
If you take a different Zone 5 station, say New Barnet, a single to East Croydon is £8.20 on a paper ticket (and less on Oyster) but a single to Gatwick is £21.90 on a paper ticket. That would suggest an extension fare of at least £13.70. Of course, this is just one case chosen at random, but it maybe suggests that the result might need to depend on averaging over a much wider range of tickets. Also in the balance would be an assessment of what proportion of passengers using Oyster to Gatwick would if the extension fare were too high want to split at East Croydon by alighting, and touching out and then in, and in most cases boarding a subsequent train.
Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
Travelcards are zonal, so you look at the station closest to the final destination within that zone, or a boundary zone fare.
An existing BZ5-Gatwick ticket is £5.20, which is valid on the Gatwick Express branded trains with a Travelcard on Oyster or paper, so I would expect the extension fare on a period Travelcard on Oyster to be £5.20.
It'll be slightly different with those travelling on PAYG and daily/weekly price capping, though- it is unclear whether the daily or weekly price capping will leave the whole of the Gatwick-London journey outside the cap- which could well mean people are better off buying paper Travelcards and extension tickets, or buying a weekly Travelcard on Oyster and an extension.
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The original press release says that the peak single from East Croydon to Gatwick Airport will be £5.20 - the off-peak single will be £3.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/...e-travel-to-and-from-gatwick-airport-seamless
I wish they would get on and confirm whether the price capping will leave the trip outside zone 6 separate. If so, it will be cheaper to tap in and out at East Croydon than travel through to London if travelling onwards.
Because the more customers that buy their tickets away from Victoria station, the fewer customers there are queueing up at Victoria.
Normally a number of Mystery shopping surveys would be conducted to measure queue times, station ambience, staffing, etc.
Fares for 2016 (including capping to stations between Merstham and Gatwick) are now available on the TfL website to zones 1 to 9
http://content.tfl.gov.uk/national-rail-2016-adult-fares.pdf
Does that mean that there won't be capping from stations between Merstham and Gatwick and solely zones 1 to 6?
The off-peak cap from Redhill doesn't look great relative to the cost of the existing zones 1 to 6 travelcard (or taking the 405 to Coulsdon South for as long as that remains an option at its current price).
http://content.tfl.gov.uk/national-rail-2016-adult-fares.pdf
Does that mean that there won't be capping from stations between Merstham and Gatwick and solely zones 1 to 6?
The off-peak cap from Redhill doesn't look great relative to the cost of the existing zones 1 to 6 travelcard (or taking the 405 to Coulsdon South for as long as that remains an option at its current price).
andrewkeith5
Member
£19 for an off peak Gatwick to Z1-6 Travelcard with Oyster, or £10.50 for exactly the same validity on a paper ticket. How absurd!
How does Oyster actually work with these high caps given that the all day cap from Coulsdon South is £11.70 (£11.80 from January)?
We already have the information (not yet on the TfL website) in the press release:
So, someone touching in at Redhill and out at London Victoria in the peaks pays £10.30 each way and then travelling in zone 1 only is subject to the relevant cap of £6.50. I make that £27.10.
Someone touching in at Redhill and out at East Croydon in the peaks pays £5.20 each way and then the zone 1 to 5 cap is £11.00. I make that £21.40.
The Redhill to Zone 1-9 cap then only applies if you make multiple journeys outside zone 6?
Is there a flaw in my understanding? Is there actually a (monetary) advantage of touching in and out at East Croydon rather than travelling through to London in one go?
How does it currently work with the fares from Shenfield that are not dissimilar?
We already have the information (not yet on the TfL website) in the press release:
So, someone touching in at Redhill and out at London Victoria in the peaks pays £10.30 each way and then travelling in zone 1 only is subject to the relevant cap of £6.50. I make that £27.10.
Someone touching in at Redhill and out at East Croydon in the peaks pays £5.20 each way and then the zone 1 to 5 cap is £11.00. I make that £21.40.
The Redhill to Zone 1-9 cap then only applies if you make multiple journeys outside zone 6?
Is there a flaw in my understanding? Is there actually a (monetary) advantage of touching in and out at East Croydon rather than travelling through to London in one go?
How does it currently work with the fares from Shenfield that are not dissimilar?
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mattdickinson
Member
There is some extra validity:
to Amersham, Chesham, Watford Met, Watford High Street, Cheshunt, Brentwood and Dartford.
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Not sure where you've got £10.50 from. The equivalent ticket fare, a not GatEx travelcard, will be £17. Of course, there are cheaper tickets valid on Thameslink or Southern only. But the point still stands that it will be cheaper to buy a paper/smart ticket for a return to Gatwick with travel around London included.
andrewkeith5
Member
Oh blast, pardon me! I am confusing railcard discounted fares with non-discounted ones. *embarrased*!
But as you say, the point still stands....if they go ahead, surely they can no longer make the claim that the oyster fare is always cheaper?
swt_passenger
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They stopped claiming Oyster was 'always cheaper' way back.
Although I don't think it was ever more expensive.
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