Potential Labour Party split (Split now happened).

Shenandoah

Member
Joined
19 Jun 2015
Messages
96
Location
Thunder Bay
Quoted on BBC Devon: firstly by a constituent, that S. Wollaston 'got out before she was pushed'. More or less the same comment was made by a BBC (London) commentator. Yesterday in the South Hams constituency there was talk of Wollaston not being selected to stand at a future election.
I think the defectors, from both parties, should resign and stand for re-election. In that way their beliefs would be put to an electoral test.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

radamfi

Established Member
Joined
29 Oct 2009
Messages
8,767
The problem with that is the electoral system. The British system does not properly cater for more than 2 candidates in one seat as it doesn't take into account second preferences.
 

mmh

Established Member
Joined
13 Aug 2016
Messages
2,064
The problem with that is the electoral system. The British system does not properly cater for more than 2 candidates in one seat as it doesn't take into account second preferences.
Thank goodness. I can't picture any alternative system working for parliamentary elections.
 

Busaholic

Established Member
Joined
7 Jun 2014
Messages
9,280
Quite. He's as far left a mainstream politician as the UK has had in quite a long time, but I can see no evidence whatsoever to suggest that he proposes to rescind democracy or anything quite so ridiculous as that.
I remember Andrew McIntosh becoming GLC leader when Labour won power in 1981, and Ken Livingstone deposing him the very next day in a left wing heist. Don't forget, Corbyn is only a puppet (hence his inability to think on, or even off, his feet): his view will mean diddly squat if, by some miracle, he ever becomes PM. He'll be retired to his allotment to mutter into his beard.
 

Busaholic

Established Member
Joined
7 Jun 2014
Messages
9,280
Corbyn is a fair way left, but I think suggesting he is Marxist is along the same lines as suggesting the Tories are fascist.
Well, on the basis that he's never read anything, he can't be a Marxist, obviously :lol:

McDonnell, incidentally, is happy to describe himself as a Marxist.
 
Last edited:

DarloRich

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Oct 2010
Messages
23,934
Location
Work - Fenny Stratford(MK) Home - Darlington
I think the defectors, from both parties, should resign and stand for re-election. In that way their beliefs would be put to an electoral test.
there is no obligation to do so and out system does not work like that. I suspect those asking simply want these people to disappear and stop causing the leaders of their former party leaders trouble. What is the worry? Surely these upstarts will be easily crushed at the next election. Surely the time until that date gives the political giants in the Labour and Conservative parties the time to utterly discredit these splitters?
 

mmh

Established Member
Joined
13 Aug 2016
Messages
2,064
there is no obligation to do so and out system does not work like that. I suspect those asking simply want these people to disappear and stop causing the leaders of their former party leaders trouble. What is the worry? Surely these upstarts will be easily crushed at the next election. Surely the time until that date gives the political giants in the Labour and Conservative parties the time to utterly discredit these splitters?
And in the meantime their constituents are supposed to be perfectly happy?
 

Bald Rick

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Sep 2010
Messages
12,065
And in the meantime their constituents are supposed to be perfectly happy?
In todays’s world of politics, I think you’ll be hard pushed to find any constituency where a majority of constituents are happy with their MP! (Outside Scotland that is).
 

DynamicSpirit

Established Member
Joined
12 Apr 2012
Messages
4,556
Which is what they would love everyone to think. The Brexit Martyrs. If they were so principled we'd be preparing for eleven by-elections.
That would leave 11 constituencies completely unrepresented, and also remove 11 pro-remain votes from the Commons at the exact moment when Parliament will have to make the final decision on if/how Brexit happens. While that may make people like Rees-Mogg happy, that seems a pretty irresponsible thing to do (especially from the point of view of a Remain supporter, which these MPs all are).

There are also questions that, if you're going to have a by-election, you need time to sort out a campaign/party machine. There's also an issue of, that these MPs are probably in the process of setting up a new party, but that will take time. And if they resigned, won by-elections as Independents (which at least some of them probably would), would they be expected to resign again once they'd set up their new party and were no longer 'independents'? That would after all seem to be the logic of those arguing that they should resign NOW because they've changed their party.

I am actually somewhat sympathetic to the argument that they should in principle resign and stand in by-elections, but there are good arguments for waiting until AFTER Brexit has/hasn't happened and a new party has been set up, is properly functioning and has a set of defined policies.
 

mikeg

Member
Joined
20 Apr 2010
Messages
1,051
And in the meantime their constituents are supposed to be perfectly happy?
They voted for that person. If they don't like it let's change the electoral system going forward but until then we have elected them under the rules that were laid down for their election.

Incidentally I'm not sure what to make of the Independent Group. I align myself as a centrist but am not for 'more of the same'. There needs to be something new and different but it has to be better than what came before. We need some new radical policies and a restructuring of various political and economic systems, muddling through is increasingly not an option unless we settle for stagnation, yes, but what we need is a new consensus to go with it. The thing that struck me about the 2008 crisis is that unlike other crises of similar magnitude there hasn't really been a new political economy proposed or created, just adaptations to the old consensus. We need something of a shift akin to that which brought in the post-war consensus or the post-Thatcherite one. Both were ideas designed to solve in their own way the challenges of the time. When the times change, so too must the consensus.
 

GusB

Established Member
Associate Staff
Buses & Coaches
Joined
9 Jul 2016
Messages
2,043
Location
Elginshire
In todays’s world of politics, I think you’ll be hard pushed to find any constituency where a majority of constituents are happy with their MP! (Outside Scotland that is).
Don't assume that everyone in Scotland is happy with their MP! I have a blue one.
 

Bald Rick

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Sep 2010
Messages
12,065
Don't assume that everyone in Scotland is happy with their MP! I have a blue one.
Oh quite, but I guess that there are at least some constituencies North of the Border where a majority of voters are happy with their sitting MP. There won’t be many of those in England.
 

DynamicSpirit

Established Member
Joined
12 Apr 2012
Messages
4,556
Which is what they would love everyone to think. The Brexit Martyrs. If they were so principled we'd be preparing for eleven by-elections.
The reality is that most or all of them were effectively finished in their own party for one reason or another, so little to lose by doing a runner. In the case of the Labour ones they were heading for deselection, and in the case of the Conservative ones heading for rest of career on the backbenches. I don't think they've sacrificed anything, especially if no by-elections take place.
I think it's more subtle than that. You need to ask why these people are facing de-selection. After all, if they were really the unprincipled careerists that some are making them out to be, then it would've presumably been easy for them to modify their public stances to better conform to what their local party members would support, thereby safeguarding their political careers. But no, those MPs were facing de-selection because they consistently chose to stand up for principles that were not popular amongst their respective local party memberships. So that still looks pretty principled to me.
 
Last edited:

Mutant Lemming

Established Member
Joined
8 Aug 2011
Messages
3,192
Location
London
Must admit I do find things like swearing oaths of allegiance rather sinister. Of course it's sometimes not readily clear what is truth and what is the press. Nonetheless I find Corbyn sufficiently sinister not to wish to take the risk.
You are so right - nothing more sinister than "god" and the ""royal" family"
 

Mutant Lemming

Established Member
Joined
8 Aug 2011
Messages
3,192
Location
London
By the way - as many have pointed out regarding democracy when are the anointed few going to put their jaws where there balls are supposed to be and see if the electorate actually fall for their spiel ? Let the electorate decide
 

bramling

Established Member
Joined
5 Mar 2012
Messages
8,132
Location
Hertfordshire / Teesdale
Yes. The person they voted for is still in parliament. In our system we do not elect a party we elect an individual.
In all honesty I’d be pretty pissed off, especially if I were a leave voter. However I agree that technically we elect the person not the party - although of course the party name does appear on the ballot paper.
 

adrock1976

Established Member
Joined
10 Dec 2013
Messages
2,807
Location
What's it called? It's called Cumbernauld
I think it's more subtle than that. You need to ask why these people are facing de-selection. After all, if they were really the unprincipled careerists that some are making them out to be, then it would've presumably been easy for them to modify their public stances to better conform to what their local party members would support, thereby safeguarding their political careers. But no, those MPs were facing de-selection because they consistently chose to stand up for principles that were not popular amongst their respective local party memberships. So that still looks pretty principled to me.
It depends which version of principles those Labour MPs had embraced and whether they matched those of their constituents i.e the original values and principles that the party was founded, or Tony Blair's New Labour version which was a lighter type of Thatcher values and principles.

On a side note, in the Shettleston area in the east end of Glasgow, Frank "sorry I was late for turning up to cast my vote and just made it in time as I was too busy scoffing all the pies in the canteen" McAveety (an arch-Blairite who is so far removed from the original values and principles that the Labour Party were founded upon) keeps on reappearing in various capacities such as standing for either a local councillor or MSP, despite the electorate keep on giving him the boot every time. He does not yet have seem to got the hint yet that the locals do not want him serving in any capacity whatsoever. Furthermore, Shettleston has the dubious honour of having the most number of off-sales and bookies in proportion to its population in a deprived area - all of which were given the go-ahead by McAveety when serving on the council in various spells.
 

krus_aragon

Established Member
Joined
10 Jun 2009
Messages
5,594
Location
North Wales
In all honesty I’d be pretty pissed off, especially if I were a leave voter. However I agree that technically we elect the person not the party - although of course the party name does appear on the ballot paper.
"Crossing the floor" has been quite common in Welsh Assembly politics recently: Caroline Jones and Mandy Jones left UKIP to be Independents, Mark Reckless (yes, him) left the UKIP group to sit with the Conservatives, Dafydd Ellis Thomas left Plaid Cymru to be an Independent and join Labour in government. Mohamed Ashgar was first elected as a Plaid Cymru candidate, but then joined the Conservatives, and has stood (successfully) for them in subsequent elections. Some were elected "by name" in individual constituencies, but others are regional AMs elected from a party list. Even those from individual constituencies are considered to be representatives of a party, for the calculation of which under-represented parties get seats from the regional lists. But none of these have felt the need to stand down and trigger a by-election, as fas as I recall. (If a regional member stood down, they'd just be replaced with the next candidate of the list from the previous election.)

In the case of Mandy Jones, she got her place in 2017 after Nathan Gill stood down (a year after the election) because she was next on UKIP's regional list of candidates. But due to disagreements with the UKIP group in the Assembly, she effectively sits as an independent.

And returning to Westminster, Winston Churchill famously crossed the floor several times during his career, switching loyalty between the Conservative and Liberal parties (and being Independent when it suited).
 

HH

Established Member
Joined
31 Jul 2009
Messages
4,505
Location
Essex
By the way - as many have pointed out regarding democracy when are the anointed few going to put their jaws where there balls are supposed to be and see if the electorate actually fall for their spiel ? Let the electorate decide
The electorate will get to decide - at the next General Election. There's no pressing reason to have multiple by elections, at vast cost. We're going to need to save every penny we can.

I think most, if not all, of these rebels will sink without trace, but it's at least going to make things interesting for a while.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
51,351
Location
Up and down the south WCML (mostly)
And the level of intolerance, verging on outright abuse, shown in those remarks beautifully shows why so many people with progressive, moderately left wing, views are turning away from the Labour Party. :(
Yes, precisely. This kind of polarisation (as found also in places like the DOO debates) do not in my view have a future in the more collaborative form of politics I would like to see.

I wholly respect that people may have quite polarised political views - i.e. you might have a full-on "nationalise everything" Communist, and that is a valid view (though at the extremes there are some extremely unsavoury views too, particularly over to the right) - but I have no time for the vitriol, only for sensible, non-personal debate about issues. Indeed, the attacks and vitriol are to me one of the biggest problems with our present system. Just because you say "I'm afraid I consider that the Right Honourable Member for Little Piddle is misguided in his views" rather than "Oi, you, you're an effing idiot", doesn't mean this approach is what I want to see.
 

Howardh

Established Member
Joined
17 May 2011
Messages
5,327
Can all those who want a by-election in the seats now occupied by the independents please explain why Farage hasn't stood in an Euro by-election since he left UKIP?
I actually agree they should re-stand, although why should someone re-stand if they have left due to "bullying" of any type? Maybe there's a difference between leaving a party to become independent, and leaving to join another?
 

Puffing Devil

Established Member
Joined
11 Apr 2013
Messages
2,295
And the level of intolerance, verging on outright abuse, shown in those remarks beautifully shows why so many people with progressive, moderately left wing, views are turning away from the Labour Party. :(
I agree. I resigned my Labour Party membership on the back on Corbyn's handling of Brexit. The party has lurched too far to the left and is unelectable.

Whilst Labour may be even more attractive to 25% of the electorate, and the Conservatives will retain a 25% core of the hard right, it's the 50% in the centre of the spectrum who will decide the next government. Corbyn is not attractive to that 50%. I believe that a centrist party stands a great chance at the next election, with moderate policies, supporting EU membership, rolling back Tory cuts and investing in our social services. Funded by increased taxation - a Sweden+ model!
 

WelshBluebird

Established Member
Joined
14 Jan 2010
Messages
3,177
I agree. I resigned my Labour Party membership on the back on Corbyn's handling of Brexit. The party has lurched too far to the left and is unelectable.

Whilst Labour may be even more attractive to 25% of the electorate, and the Conservatives will retain a 25% core of the hard right, it's the 50% in the centre of the spectrum who will decide the next government. Corbyn is not attractive to that 50%. I believe that a centrist party stands a great chance at the next election, with moderate policies, supporting EU membership, rolling back Tory cuts and investing in our social services. Funded by increased taxation - a Sweden+ model!
So certainly not The Independent Group considering at least one of its members spend part of a press conference announcing her joining to claim that the Tory cuts were required etc etc.

I do wonder how it is going to work policy wise if they actually do become a proper party, as there are some pretty varied views there!

Yes. The person they voted for is still in parliament. In our system we do not elect a party we elect an individual.
Technically yes, but in reality that just often isn't the case.
People often do vote for parties not individuals - that is why we end up with safe seats where you can stick a red / blue / purple / yellow rose on a donkey and get it elected.
 

Puffing Devil

Established Member
Joined
11 Apr 2013
Messages
2,295
So certainly not The Independent Group considering at least one of its members spend part of a press conference announcing her joining to claim that the Tory cuts were required etc etc.

I do wonder how it is going to work policy wise if they actually do become a proper party, as there are some pretty varied views there!
Yes - the alignment now seems to be Anti-Brexit and away from the extremist views of both parties. Maybe a rebooted LibDem, leaving behind the baggage of Tuition Fees would be the way forward.

Technically yes, but in reality that just often isn't the case.
People often do vote for parties not individuals - that is why we end up with safe seats where you can stick a red / blue / purple / yellow rose on a donkey and get it elected.
The exception that proves the rule was the Hamilton(s) in Tatton and the election of Martin Bell.

If only that could be replicated nationally.....
 

bramling

Established Member
Joined
5 Mar 2012
Messages
8,132
Location
Hertfordshire / Teesdale
I agree. I resigned my Labour Party membership on the back on Corbyn's handling of Brexit. The party has lurched too far to the left and is unelectable.

Whilst Labour may be even more attractive to 25% of the electorate, and the Conservatives will retain a 25% core of the hard right, it's the 50% in the centre of the spectrum who will decide the next government. Corbyn is not attractive to that 50%. I believe that a centrist party stands a great chance at the next election, with moderate policies, supporting EU membership, rolling back Tory cuts and investing in our social services. Funded by increased taxation - a Sweden+ model!
EU membership should in theory be pretty irrelevant by the time of the next election, as the whole thing should be done and dusted by then.

Rejoining the EU simply won’t be an issue, not least because of the requirement to join the single currency.
 

cactustwirly

Established Member
Joined
10 Apr 2013
Messages
5,571
Location
UK
EU membership should in theory be pretty irrelevant by the time of the next election, as the whole thing should be done and dusted by then.

Rejoining the EU simply won’t be an issue, not least because of the requirement to join the single currency.
Is there such a requirement?

Hungary, Croatia, Czech Republic, Poland, Denmark, Sweden aren't part of the eurozone
 

DarloRich

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Oct 2010
Messages
23,934
Location
Work - Fenny Stratford(MK) Home - Darlington
By the way - as many have pointed out regarding democracy when are the anointed few going to put their jaws where there balls are supposed to be and see if the electorate actually fall for their spiel ? Let the electorate decide
they will be tested at the same date as all other MPs: The next General Election

I wonder if the Corebyn fan boys called with such passion for a by election when Jared O'Mara resigned from the Labour party. Perhaps it isnt leaving that is the issue. Perhaps the issue is daring to criticse the glorious leader..............

( or Frank Field for that matter!)

In all honesty I’d be pretty pissed off, especially if I were a leave voter. However I agree that technically we elect the person not the party - although of course the party name does appear on the ballot paper.
The party names didn't appear on my recent local council elections. No one seems to know why.
 

Top